§ VISCOUNT MIDLETONMy Lords, since my noble Friend the Prime Minister expressed his willingness to support the appointment of a Committee to inquire into this question, I have carefully considered the matter, and have taken counsel with those upon whose opinion I could rely; and I have come to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that no good or useful purpose is likely to be served if the Committee is to be restricted simply to Members of your Lordships' House. I say this for three reasons. In the first place, a Committee of your Lordships' House has already sat to inquire into this question, or into the kindred matter of the prevention of smoke, in the year 1887. Several distinguished Members of your Lordships' House served upon it; a Bill, founded upon the recommendations of the Committee, was subsequently introduced into the House: has been annually introduced for five years: and is still in the stage of being set down for Second Reading. That is not encouraging as to the results of the outcome of a Committee of your Lordships' House. But, in the second place, since the year 1887, 1201 not only do we know a good deal more about the subject-matter, but science has considerably advanced, and various methods for dealing with the subject have now been suggested, which were not known at the time when that Committee was appointed. But, in order that these methods should be properly tested and appreciated, they should be tested by those who are experts, and the number of those experts in a matter of this kind on the Benches of your Lordships' House is, and must always remain, limited. It is true that, within the last 24 hours, we have received a very distinguished addition to that number, in the person of the noble Lord who has taken his seat for the first time to-day. But that does not alter the fact that there are but very few of your Lordships' House, and those some of the busiest, and consequently most occupied, who could be appealed to to serve upon a Committee for this purpose. But there is a third, and a still more practical reason, which, after an experience (which has not been a short one now) of legislation, both in another place and in your Lordships' House, I think I am entitled to urge: and that is that, with hardly one single exception, no measure dealing with subjects of this kind, which has emanated from a Committee of your Lordships' House simply, and which has not been pressed in another place with all the force that the Government of the day have at its command, has had any chance whatsoever of passing into law. And in the case of a measure, founded upon the deliberations of a Committee of your Lordships' House in a matter of this kind, there would be a peculiar difficulty; because there are upon the Benches in another place many Members who are specially qualified by professional training to form their opinion upon a subject of this kind, and who are quite certain to tear in pieces any Bill that comes down from your Lordships' House, I am afraid in some cases because they have not been previously consulted in the matter. Now, my Lords, Her Majesty's Government have decided that it would not be desirable to issue a Royal Commission (which is the course I should have preferred) upon this subject, and, of course, I bow 1202 to that decision; but I do venture to submit that a Joint Committee of both Houses might meet these particular difficulties to which I have already referred. In the first place, they would have before them all the printed evidence taken before the Committee of your Lordships' House. In the second place, it would be possible to re-inforce any Committee appointed by your Lordships' House by an equal number, at least, of men specially qualified to deal with the subject from the Benches in another place. And, thirdly, I think that the recommendations of such a Joint Committee would come with much greater force, and with a much greater chance of having practical legislation founded upon them, than any recommendations which were arrived at by a Committee composed simply of Members of your Lordships' House. Now, my Lords, I should not for a moment think of asking a Committee of that kind to embark upon what the noble Marquess seemed to be afraid I was touching upon—namely, a hopeless crusade against the vapours of the North Sea and the Essex Marshes. No, my Lords, the London fog is, I think, just one of those things of which it may be said, as is said with regard to vice, that it loses more than half its evils when it loses all its grossness; and, if you could take away from the London fog the elements introduced into it by Londoners themselves, you would have done much to render it less injurious to human life, certainly more innocuous as regards sapping the vital energy, and incomparably less expensive than London fogs at present are. It may be in the recollection of your Lordships that a single foggy day means an extra expenditure of £4,000 in gas alone; and that, by the best computation, every year the combustic products which are sent up the chimneys to poison the air, instead of being used to warm our rooms and dwellings, amount to a tax upon the community of somewhat upwards of £1,000,000 per annum. Those are established facts, and those facts can be proved. My Lords, it has also been suggested that my object was to point out particular remedies. My Lords, that is exactly the point I wish to avoid. I think it is most essential 1203 that a burden of that kind should be left for the decision of a Committee, and that further inquiry should precede any legislation. As regards anthracite coal, I merely mentioned that as one of many methods which might be adopted for dealing with the question; and I think scant justice was done to it in the answer of the noble Marquess. If any of your Lordships wish to ascertain what may be done in that respect, I am given to understand that there is a fire burning at the present moment in the Prince's Chamber, which was lighted this morning, entirely composed of anthracite coal, which I have just been looking at myself. I found that there was a very wholesome flame proceeding from it; and certainly much more heat was given out than from the fireplace at the other end of the room. That, however, is only one branch of the subject. My Lords, since I first brought this subject before your Lordships' House, I have been inundated with suggestions, practical and un-practical, of all sorts and kinds. I have seen articles in almost every paper in the daily Press on the subject—many of them, I confess, not very encouraging to anyone who wishes to act as a reformer in this matter; but some pointing out that science has defined various remedies, any one or more of which might be adopted. And there is one remedy, at all events, within our reach. If we only agreed, by legislation, to say that all future grates should be so constructed as to consume their own smoke, and that all future ovens should be rendered smokeless, you would, at once, have done a great deal to cope with the increase of the evil which is daily going on. Had such a measure been adopted, which the Smoke Prevention Act suggested, and put into force 30 years ago, the air of London would now be comparatively pure. The great mischief has been done, not so much by the ordinary chimney as by the kitchen chimney, which must be in every house; and a very slight alteration indeed in many cases would entirely prevent the smoke and the deleterious action issuing therefrom. I merely mention these facts to prove that there is a distinct case to inquire into; and 1204 I believe that such an inquiry, if there is not to be a Royal Commission, might effectually and efficiently be carried on by a Joint Committee of the two Houses of Parliament. Those are the views I venture to submit to your Lordships. I gave the Home Office private notice of the question I was about to put three or four days ago; and I hope no objection will be placed in the way if it be possible to form a Joint Committee of both Houses to, inquire into this important matter. I do not say that such a Committee, would be entirely, or perhaps even partly, successful; but I do say that the subject is one which touches the comfort and health of so large a portion of the community that we ought not to sit down with hands folded, and say that nothing can be done, until it has been proved, beyond all manner of doubt, that the evil is one which is irremediable, and with which it is impossible for us to deal.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, in the first place, I must be allowed to congratulate my noble Friend upon the valuable auxiliary that he, obtained this morning to the arguments which he desires to press upon the House and upon the public. Not all the eloquence of my noble Friend was equal to that very dirty fog which we found upon coming into London this morning, and which made me feel a wish that it were possible by any means, Royal Commission or other, to further my noble Friend's desires. But I am afraid the facts are too strong for us. I am not going through the arguments that my noble Friend repeated, with great force, upon the evils or the remediability of the London fog. I am afraid lest I should be considered to be an advocate and friend of the fog—anything more near an advocatus diaboli I cannot imagine. But, on the present occasion, I have, not to argue the larger question. My noble Friend has gone off the safe field of Committees of this House and Royal Commissions into an unknown country—into the question of Joint Committees. He is touching the mysterious parts of the Constitution. I do not exactly know what the principles are 1205 upon which Joint Committees are appointed, but I know that the suggestion of them is very apt to be ill received on the other side of the Central Hall. I remember some years ago, when the noble Lords opposite were in power and had a large majority in the House of Commons, they proposed that the Indian Budget should be referred to a Joint Committee; it was a very reasonable proposal; but all the authority of Mr. Gladstone's Government of that day could not induce the House of Commons to accept it. And I am told that it is exceedingly unlikely that the House of Commons would accept a Joint Committee on this subject. Hitherto Joint Committees, with I think only one exception, have been confined to questions concerning the Private Business of the two Houses. I will not undertake, on behalf of the House of Commons, that they would consent to a Joint Committee; I should be giving an undertaking which I should be wholly incapable of fulfilling; but I will undertake this: that if anyone moves in the House of Commons for a Joint Committee, and that House accepts it, I will do my best to persuade your Lordships' House to join with the House of Commons in entering upon it. I cannot do more than that. My Lords, much of my noble Friend's remarks were addressed to the point that the House of Commons would not accept any measure that did not initiate with them. If that is the case, the proper course is clearly for my noble Friend to induce one of his many adherents in the other House to move for a Committee in that House, and I daresay he would move it with success. But I do not quite understand the modesty which induces my noble Friend to abstain from going forward in that path of investigation he has here selected. After all, the main point is to collect information, and that information will be good enough whichever House it comes from; it will not matter which House has put it into the Blue Book; and, if my noble Friend can get together, by examination in Committee, an amount of evidence which shows that there is an effective remedy for this evil, and that that remedy can be applied by 1206 Parliament, I will venture to say that the House of Commons will attach just as much importance to that evidence as if it were gathered by themselves.
§ House adjourned at twenty minutes past Five o'clock.