HL Deb 15 February 1892 vol 1 cc413-7

Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.

* THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS)

My Lords, I have to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to a Bill for the purpose of amending the Indian Councils Act (1861). I do not think I should be justified in taking up much of your Lordships' time in explaining the Bill, because the Bill was before your Lordships in the year 1890; it was then read a second time; it went through the ordeal of a Committee, and, at the suggestion of the noble Earl, who was formerly Viceroy of India (the Earl of Northbrook) and the noble and learned Lord on the opposite Bench (Lord Herschell), certain Amendments were made in this Bill, and the Bill was read a third time with those Amendments in it. And the Bill to which I have now to ask your Lordships to give a second reading is a Bill drawn up precisely in the same terms as the one that was before your Lordships in 1890. Unfortunately, in the other House the pressure of business prevented this Bill from being passed through either in 1890 or 1891. The main objects of the Bill are to enable the Legislative Councils of India, in the first place, to interrogate the Government, to make interpellations upon certain questions; also to enable them to discuss questions of finance; also to enlarge the number of Legislat[...]ve Councils by a provision introduced by the noble Earl; to enable the Viceroy, with the consent of the Secretary of State, to make certain rules as to the nomination of people, no doubt with a considerable amount of latitude in their choice of Councillors. The noble and learned Lord also introduced a clause to enable the Legislative Councils to amend certain Acts which formerly were like the laws of the Medes and Persians, and could not be altered. My Lords, I was most grateful for what fell from the noble Earl, the Leader of the Opposition (Earl of Kimberley), on the opening night of the Session, and I entirely concur with him in what he said, namely, that although unfortunately there has been some delay in passing this measure, yet I think some good has come of it, which is that those who were anxious for a more advanced measure than this is have thought the matter well over, and are content now to approach this subject more tentatively than they were in the first instance; and I have reason to believe that the Bill will now be much more welcomed by a certain class of persons than it would have been in 1889 or 1890. No one is more anxious than myself, except the Viceroy, to see this Bill passed, and I can assure your Lordships' House that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to do all they can to pass it through this House, and to press it through the other House of Parliament.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2."—(The Viscount Cross.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

My Lords, I shall not object to the course taken by the noble Viscount opposite in not going into a discussion on this Bill; because, as I have discovered myself, and as he has told us, it is the same Bill as the Bill, when amended, which was before the House last Session. I only wish to make one single remark, which is but a repetition of what I have said. I attach great importance to Sub-section 4 of the first clause of the Bill, which enables the Governor General in Council, with the approval of the Secretary of State, to make regulations as to the conditions under which the nominations, or any of them, may be made. I attach great importance to that, because I myself believe that under that clause it will be open to the Governor General to make arrangements by which certain persons may be presented to him, having been chosen by election, if the Governor General should find that such a system can properly be established. I am bound to say that I and some of our friends would have preferred that the possibility of election being one of the modes of presenting these persons to be nominated by the Council was more explicitly recognised in the Bill than it is; but, at the same time, I very well know the difficulties which there may be in carrying through a Bill of this kind. I regard it as essentially a tentative measure, and being so, I am quite willing to welcome it, although it opens the door, perhaps, in a very slight manner apparently on the face of it. What we really desire is that in this matter the Government of India should be able to exercise their own discretion on the spot as to the extent to which they may think it wise to advance in the direction that is desired. I do not think we are good judges here of the precise amount of concession that it would be advisable to make. I think if the Governor General of India should find that he is able to introduce, in some modified form, some system of election, it will be seen how it works; and, if it works well, the Governor General will be able, with the approval of the Secretary of State, to give a further extension to the principle. Feeling, as I do, that great caution is desirable in dealing with this subject in India, I should not be disposed to criticise in any hostile spirit the Bill as it stands. On the contrary, I believe it may lay the foundation of very useful changes in the constitution of the Councils in India with regard to this subject. With regard to the rest of the Bill, it contains a variety of useful propositions, but if any remark is to be made upon them, I think it will be more convenient to make it in Committee. Lastly, my Lords, I would say that I welcome the expression by the noble Viscount of the intention of the Government to press forward this Bill; and, although I have said already that I think it very important that it should be so pressed forward, I may be forgiven for again repeating on this occasion that I think it is almost dangerous to leave a subject of this kind hung up to be perpetually discussed by all manner of persons, and that having once allowed that, at all events, some amendment is necessary with regard to the mode of constituting these Legislative Councils, it is incumbent upon the Government and Parliament to pass the Bill that they may think expedient as speedily as possible into law.

* THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

My Lords, I have very few remarks to add to what has fallen from my noble Friend beside me (the Earl of Kimberley). I agree with the belief which he expressed that this clause will be elastic enough to enable some measures to be taken by the Viceroy of India in Council, with the concurrence of the Secretary of State, to popularise in some way or other the selections for the different Legislative Councils in India. I should have preferred that my noble Friend should have used the term "representation" rather than "election," although I do not believe there is any real difference between the two; for this reason: that I conceive, so far as I know, that India is a country quite unfit for any system of popular election by the formation of popular constituencies and the election of members by large constituencies; whereas I believe there are municipal and other bodies in India who can be perfectly well trusted to recommend to the Viceroy representatives of those bodies, and that very possibly (I am far from presuming to express an opinion with any degree of positiveness as to the present condition of India) some such system of representation as that might be found quite in accordance with the present condition of India, and would satisfy a feeling—I believe a legitimate feeling—which has been very moderately and properly expressed by public bodies in India of late on that matter. And I think that one of the great merits of the Bill, as was noticed by the noble Earl, is that it is very elastic. We in this country do not pretend to lay down any hard-and-fast rules under which these bodies are to be appointed; but it is left to those who know most about it, namely, the Governor General of India in Council, with the approval of the Secretary of State in Council: and we may hope, my Lords, that if this. Bill (as I fervently desire myself it should) be passed during the present Session, this question may be, so far as legislation is concerned, set at rest for a very considerable number of years.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)

My Lords, I only rise for the purpose of expressing my general assent to the language which has just been used by the noble Lord, and at the same time entering a caveat. I quite agree with him that the word "representation" better expresses the intention that we have and that the Governor General has, than the more narrow word "election," which may not necessarily be applicable; but I should be sorry that it should be believed that we look at that representation as necessarily confined, or even specially assigned, to municipal bodies. I do not in the least desire to narrow the language or the elasticity of the Bill, or to say a word to discourage the use of such bodies; but I do demur to the idea that they are necessarily the main representatives of Indian opinion—I do not think that was the intention of the noble Lord.

THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK

It was not at all.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I fear that those words might be interpreted in that way. I think that we all desire to popularise these bodies, so as practically to bring them into harmony with the dominant sentiment of the Indian people; but we must be careful lest, by the application of occidental machinery, we bring into power not the strong, natural, vigorous, effective elements of Indian Society, but the more artificial and weakly elements which we ourselves have made and have brought into prominence. It would be a great evil if, in any system of Government which we gradually develop, the really strong portions of Indian society did not obtain that share in the government to which their natural position among their own people traditionally entitles them.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a (according to order) and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Friday next.