Lords Sitting of 15 February 1892

SHORT TITLES BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to facilitate the citation of sundry Acts of Parliament was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 12.)
BETTING AND LOANS (INFANTS) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to render penal the inciting Infants to betting or wagering, or to borrowing money—was presented by the Lord Herschell; read 1a, to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday, the 23rd inst. (No. 13.)
INDIAN COUNCILS ACT (1861) AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]—(No. 3.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS)My Lords, I have to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to a Bill for the purpose of amending the Indian Councils Act (1861). I do not think I should be justified in taking up much of your Lordships' time in explaining the Bill, because the Bill was before your Lordships in the year 1890; it was then read a second time; it went through the ordeal of a Committee, and, at the suggestion of the noble Earl, who was formerly Viceroy of India (the Earl of Northbrook) and the noble and learned Lord on the opposite Bench (Lord Herschell), certain Amendments were made in this Bill, and the Bill was read a third time with those Amendments in it. And the Bill to which I have now to ask your Lordships to give a second reading is a Bill drawn up precisely in the same terms as the one that was before your Lordships in 1890. Unfortunately, in the other House the pressure of business prevented this Bill from being passed through either in 1890 or 1891. The main objects of the Bill are to enable the Legislative Councils of India, in the first place, to interrogate the Government, to make interpellations upon certain questions; also to enable them to discuss questions of finance; also to enlarge the number of Legislat ve Councils by a provision introduced by the noble Earl; to enable the Viceroy, with the consent
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  of the Secretary of State, to make certain rules as to the nomination of people, no doubt with a considerable amount of latitude in their choice of Councillors. The noble and learned Lord also introduced a clause to enable the Legislative Councils to amend certain Acts which formerly were like the laws of the Medes and Persians, and could not be altered. My Lords, I was most grateful for what fell from the noble Earl, the Leader of the Opposition (Earl of Kimberley), on the opening night of the Session, and I entirely concur with him in what he said, namely, that although unfortunately there has been some delay in passing this measure, yet I think some good has come of it, which is that those who were anxious for a more advanced measure than this is have thought the matter well over, and are content now to approach this subject more tentatively than they were in the first instance; and I have reason to believe that the Bill will now be much more welcomed by a certain class of persons than it would have been in 1889 or 1890. No one is more anxious than myself, except the Viceroy, to see this Bill passed, and I can assure your Lordships' House that it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to do all they can to pass it through this House, and to press it through the other House of Parliament.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2."—(The Viscount Cross.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYMy Lords, I shall not object to the course taken by the noble Viscount opposite in not going into a discussion on this Bill; because, as I have discovered myself, and as he has told us, it is the same Bill as the Bill, when amended, which was before the House last Session. I only wish to make one single remark, which is but a repetition of what I have said. I attach great importance to Sub-section 4 of the first clause of the Bill, which enables the Governor General in Council, with the approval of the Secretary of State, to make regulations as to the conditions under which the nominations, or any of them, may be made. I attach great importance to that, because I myself believe that under that clause it will be open to the Governor General to make arrangements by which certain persons may be

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  presented to him, having been chosen by election, if the Governor General should find that such a system can properly be established. I am bound to say that I and some of our friends would have preferred that the possibility of election being one of the modes of presenting these persons to be nominated by the Council was more explicitly recognised in the Bill than it is; but, at the same time, I very well know the difficulties which there may be in carrying through a Bill of this kind. I regard it as essentially a tentative measure, and being so, I am quite willing to welcome it, although it opens the door, perhaps, in a very slight manner apparently on the face of it. What we really desire is that in this matter the Government of India should be able to exercise their own discretion on the spot as to the extent to which they may think it wise to advance in the direction that is desired. I do not think we are good judges here of the precise amount of concession that it would be advisable to make. I think if the Governor General of India should find that he is able to introduce, in some modified form, some system of election, it will be seen how it works; and, if it works well, the Governor General will be able, with the approval of the Secretary of State, to give a further extension to the principle. Feeling, as I do, that great caution is desirable in dealing with this subject in India, I should not be disposed to criticise in any hostile spirit the Bill as it stands. On the contrary, I believe it may lay the foundation of very useful changes in the constitution of the Councils in India with regard to this subject. With regard to the rest of the Bill, it contains a variety of useful propositions, but if any remark is to be made upon them, I think it will be more convenient to make it in Committee. Lastly, my Lords, I would say that I welcome the expression by the noble Viscount of the intention of the Government to press forward this Bill; and, although I have said already that I think it very important that it should be so pressed forward, I may be forgiven for again repeating on this occasion that I think it is almost dangerous to leave a subject of this kind hung up to be perpetually discussed by all manner of persons, and that having once allowed that, at all events, some amendment is necessary with regard to the mode of
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  constituting these Legislative Councils, it is incumbent upon the Government and Parliament to pass the Bill that they may think expedient as speedily as possible into law.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKMy Lords, I have very few remarks to add to what has fallen from my noble Friend beside me (the Earl of Kimberley). I agree with the belief which he expressed that this clause will be elastic enough to enable some measures to be taken by the Viceroy of India in Council, with the concurrence of the Secretary of State, to popularise in some way or other the selections for the different Legislative Councils in India. I should have preferred that my noble Friend should have used the term "representation" rather than "election," although I do not believe there is any real difference between the two; for this reason: that I conceive, so far as I know, that India is a country quite unfit for any system of popular election by the formation of popular constituencies and the election of members by large constituencies; whereas I believe there are municipal and other bodies in India who can be perfectly well trusted to recommend to the Viceroy representatives of those bodies, and that very possibly (I am far from presuming to express an opinion with any degree of positiveness as to the present condition of India) some such system of representation as that might be found quite in accordance with the present condition of India, and would satisfy a feeling—I believe a legitimate feeling—which has been very moderately and properly expressed by public bodies in India of late on that matter. And I think that one of the great merits of the Bill, as was noticed by the noble Earl, is that it is very elastic. We in this country do not pretend to lay down any hard-and-fast rules under which these bodies are to be appointed; but it is left to those who know most about it, namely, the Governor General of India in Council, with the approval of the Secretary of State in Council: and we may hope, my Lords, that if this. Bill (as I fervently desire myself it should) be passed during the present Session, this question may be, so far as legislation is concerned, set at rest for a very considerable number of years.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)My Lords, I only rise for the purpose of expressing my general assent to the language which has just been used by the noble Lord, and at the same time entering a caveat. I quite agree with him that the word "representation" better expresses the intention that we have and that the Governor General has, than the more narrow word "election," which may not necessarily be applicable; but I should be sorry that it should be believed that we look at that representation as necessarily confined, or even specially assigned, to municipal bodies. I do not in the least desire to narrow the language or the elasticity of the Bill, or to say a word to discourage the use of such bodies; but I do demur to the idea that they are necessarily the main representatives of Indian opinion—I do not think that was the intention of the noble Lord.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKIt was not at all.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI fear that those words might be interpreted in that way. I think that we all desire to popularise these bodies, so as practically to bring them into harmony with the dominant sentiment of the Indian people; but we must be careful lest, by the application of occidental machinery, we bring into power not the strong, natural, vigorous, effective elements of Indian Society, but the more artificial and weakly elements which we ourselves have made and have brought into prominence. It would be a great evil if, in any system of Government which we gradually develop, the really strong portions of Indian society did not obtain that share in the government to which their natural position among their own people traditionally entitles them.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a (according to order) and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Friday next.

TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION AND THE COUNTY COUNCILS.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL COWPERMy Lords, I rise to call attention to the subject of which I have given notice. I do not think it will
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  be necessary for me to waste your Lordships' time by enlarging upon the advantages of technical education or the want of it in this country. There is no doubt that many other countries, particularly Germany, are far in advance of us in this work, and that a great deal remains to be done in the matter in this country. I need not insist upon this if Her Majesty's Government are, as your Lordships are aware, perfectly in accordance with me in this feeling, for they have already given a grant to be applied, if the County Council see fit, for the purpose of promoting technical instruction, and, what is equally important, the House of Commons seems to be of the same opinion, because it was in deference to the feeling of that Assembly that this grant was made. I need not enter into the history of the way in which this grant was made. Your Lordships are aware that two years ago a certain sum of money, which had been set aside in the Customs and Excise duties for the purpose of buying up public houses, was, in deference to the expression of a strong wish in another place, when it was found that that was not a popular way of spending the money, given to the different County Councils to be applied as they thought fit, and it was strongly recommended that it should be applied towards the promotion of technical instruction. Of course, if they preferred it, the County Councils might apply it merely to the amelioration of their local rates. My Lords, the great majority of the County Councils throughout the country did elect to apply it, according to the recommendation of the Government, towards the encouragement of technical instruction, although they were under certain difficulties from not knowing whether it was to be treated as a windfall or as the first instalment of a regular allowance; because some hopes had been held out to them that if they did spend it in the way suggested, it would be given them again. In spite of this uncertainty, they set to work, and they have been, on the whole, I think, taking in most places very good measures to carry out the object for which it was given. This year again a somewhat smaller grant, but still a considerable grant, has been given in the same way, which has in many places induced the County Coucil to take it for granted that the allowance will be a per-

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  manent one, and they have in many places set to work to establish classes of different kinds, in the urban as well as the rural districts, for the sake of teaching every kind of different subject which can at all come within the scope of the Act; and particularly in the rural districts they are doing very good work, besides, in affording interesting occupation to the young men in our country villages, which is a subject rather before the country now, so as to add a little interest to their life as well as to give them instruction. But, supposing that this grant is not going to be renewed, it would be a good thing that it should be known at once, otherwise mischief may be done; because, if these classes are not to be continued, not only would disappointment be caused, but money would have been wasted in setting them going. And, besides this, there is a class of people who are qualifying themselves, in consequence of what they suppose is a growing demand, to be instructors in these different subjects, and are giving up their time and spending their money in so doing. It stands to reason that if, after all, there is no opening for them, they will be rather badly treated, for they have been encouraged to devote their money and time in this direction. My Lords, in most cases the County Councils are taking these steps on the assumption that this grant will be permanent; under some circumstances they are still hesitating, in consequence of not knowing the intention of the Government in the matter, and are exposed to the charge of vacillation and doing nothing, from which I think it is fair that they should be relieved without any longer delay. In some places they have elected to treat the grant entirely as a windfall, and, as they have no reason to suppose that they will get more than last year and this year, the only thing to do, they say, is to divide the money as well as they can among existing institutions. In this way a great deal of money is being frittered away. For all these different reasons I think it is desirable that we should know whether we are to have a permanent grant or not. My Lords, I do not object myself to the Government having proceeded in a tentative manner, and I certainly am not one of those who complain of this thing being worked through the County
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  Councils. Now that we have established these bodies, and very good men throughout the country have been found to come forward and devote themselves to the work, it is time to think of giving them something more to do than merely to look after the roads, and trying to stop the cattle disease when it breaks out, and the joint management of the police, and so on. I think everything that gives them something to do is a good thing. I think also that the needs of different parts of the country are different one from another, and that by trusting the local authorities we are more likely to distribute this money in a way to suit the needs of each particular district, than if we were to organise a scheme at head-quarters and carry it out by the management of some central authority. And, whether the Government have done what we wish or not, we must also feel that they are the first Government who have taken the matter up at all and done anything for technical instruction. I think, my Lords, I may, with all due deference, ask the Government to remove our uncertainty, and I hope I may ask them also to make this grant permanent. It is not for me, of course, to say in what manner a permanent allowance is to be made, nor do I think that is a question for this House to enter into; it is more a question for the other House to decide how the grant is to be made, and what its amount is to be. We have only to deal here with general principles. Before I sit down I will only allude to one other difficulty that the County Councils labour under in carrying out this matter. We are, of course, obliged to consult the South Kensington authorities—the Science and Art Department—with regard to what subjects may be taught. I am bound to say that this body has shown not only the utmost courtesy to everyone who has applied, and taken the utmost pains to tell them what they may do, but has also exercised, I think, a wide discretion in giving as free an interpretation as possible to the Act to enable it to work. There is one clause that stands very much in their way, and in the way of the County Councils too: that is the clause which forbids the teaching of any trade, occupation, or industry. My Lords, this hampers the Department very much. It is not too much to say that it is really

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  only by going as near the wind as possible in evading the clause that the Act can be made to work at all. I do not know the history of it—whether it was put in for the sake of safeguarding any particular industry, or whether there was some particular interest which it was necessary to conciliate to get the Bill through the House. All I know is that the clause is a very difficult one, and causes a great deal of inconvenience. My Lords, technical instruction has been defined as instruction in those branches of art or science which may be definitely applied to some specific industry. Surely the best way to teach these branches is by applying them, that is to say by uniting practice with theory; otherwise, if this clause were acted upon strictly, we should be reduced to doing very little more than giving a series of lectures unaccompanied either by illustrations or experiments. I remember many years ago, when I was at Oxford, having to attend a certain number of lectures, and probably many of your Lordships, at the same period of your lives, had to do the same. I can only say that of the many benefits upon which I can look back from that great and venerable institution, I do not think anything I got from attending lectures can be numbered among them. I suppose one idea of this clause is that it should not interfere with private effort. That may be a good thing in itself—that might be a reason for leaving technical instruction to private effort altogether, as I believe some people wish to do; or it might be a reason for putting in safeguards. But really to divide the two by having all the practice taught by one set of people, and all the theory by another—the theory by the Government and the practice by private enterprise—is not a dividing of the thing which commends itself to my mind. I do not know whether this clause can be modified; I only mention it in passing to call attention to the subject. My real object in trespassing on your Lordships' time is to remove the uncertainty that at present prevails, and that the County Councils may know what they are about, by being informed whether, or not, they may really look forward to having a permanent annual Government grant.
  THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYMy Lords, I should like to endorse what has fallen from the noble Earl as to the value that is put upon technical instruction in the
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  counties. Having acted as Chairman of my County Council Committee upon this subject, I can say that it has excited a very great deal of interest, and that there appears to be every prospect of great usefulness to come from this grant in favour of technical instruction. I did not follow the noble Earl, if I understood him rightly, when he said that there was a recommendation, along with this grant, in favour of giving it to technical education. My recollection is tbat there was no recommendation from the Government upon this matter. But, my Lords, that makes the argument in favour of continuing the grant all t he stronger; because, of their own initiative, the County Councils, or a large majority of them, have decided to devote this grant to technical instruction. I believe London is the chief exception. There can be no question, my Lords, of the great interest that has been excited in the whole country in this direction. The county with which I am associated, Huntingdonshire, is a strictly rural county, and we found the greatest difficulty in starting any subject which could be of use in a strictly agricultural rural district. But I may mention one. We have found that carpentering classes, which we had to apply to the Science and Art Department for permission to hold, have been most useful, and that during this winter in some villages very large numbers indeed of common labourers have attended these classes, and the work they have turned out is most creditable. My Lords, I would also allude to another point in supplementing what the noble Earl has said, namely, that a great many instructors were preparing themselves for teaching technical instruction throughout the country in the future. Not only is that so, but many colleges have been started for the purpose of agricultural education, and they are relying upon this grant, supplemented and assisted by donations from the County Councils towards them, for their maintenance. I do not know much about the Northern Colleges, but in connection with Cambridge there is a movement before the authorities to start a special agricultural college which is to be maintained entirely by a grant From the County Councils in the Eastern Counties of England. If this is not to be a permanent grant these institutions will suffer considerably—they will die a

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  natural death after having just been started, and the loss to the country will be considerable. I am one of those who believe that a great deal of good is to be done in this branch of education. There is no doubt that when a scholar leaves the primary school there is a lapse in the way of anything providing any instruction which is useful to him; but the proof is certainly forthcoming that in these rural villages, if you can encourage the agricultural labourer to attend classes to teach him anything of a technical kind, he is willing to attend to receive that instruction; and I consider that in that way we shall do as much good as in any other in keeping the agricultural labourer on the soil. I only hope, with the noble Earl, that the Government will make a statement that the County Councils may know that this grant will be continued permanently.
  LORD NORTONBefore the Lord President replies I should be glad to say one word in support of what has fallen from the noble Earl opposite on this question. I think everybody who knows anything of the subject must feel it is high time that we should have information both as to how this Technical Instruction grant has been spent, and how it is intended to be dealt with in future. For my own part, I think a more vague and unconstitutional vote of public money was never made since Parliament first began. It was appropriated by the House of Commons for a totally different object, and diverted to this object, and, having been so diverted, it is sent broadcast over the country to large and small County Councils, without any very definite specification of the mode in which it was to be spent, except that it was to be upon technical instruction. So far was it from binding the action of the County Councils, that the Council which has the largest share (one quarter of the whole grant) has spent it upon something totally different; the grant being half a million, the London County Council, having £140,000 out of it, have spent it not on technical instruction, but simply in relief of the local rates of London. But, my Lords, bad as it is that money should be so diverted from its first appropriation and afterwards so irregularly spent, I think there is a still greater mischief lurking in this Treasury grant: that it is increasing
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  the tendency of the present time always to look to the Treasury for doing everything. In fact, it is the most fatal symptom of the spirit of this country going down, that we are more and more encouraged by Parliament to subsist on the public purse, and to look to the Treasury to do things which ought to be done by the voluntary spirit of the country, as they used to be, and could be much better done. With regard to technical instruction, the youth of this country used to be apprenticed to various trades by private endowments, or by the employers, whose object it was to train them. There are a great number of employers who have made noble provisions of this sort. But then came the Technical Instruction Act, which checked all this action on the part of the manufacturers. No man will do that which he finds the country is willing to vote money out of the public purse to do. The man from whom I have learned most on this subject is Mr. Mather, the Member for North Lancashire. That man, having engineering works at Salford and 1,000 men in his employment, established on his works two technical schools at which all his younger workmen were taught; they were shown every new invention, and it was the business of the foreman of the works, whenever anything new was done, to teach and show it to these apprentices. When this Technical Instruction Act was passed, though it checked others, it did not check Mr. Mather; on the contrary, so intent was he upon the advancement of art in manufacture in this country that he not only continued his noble work, which costs him thousands a year, but he supported the Technical Instruction Act, and amended it greatly in the Commons. As we know, if it had not been for him it would have been a much worse Act than it is. But it was amended by him in the last week of the Session of 1889, and it came into this House and was passed through all its stages on the day of prorogation. Mr. Mather still continues his work. I asked him how it was, in the face of the very thing that he objected to most, namely, work of that sort being thrown upon public money; and he said—"Because I saw that the Technical Instruction Act must be worked in the mode of a rate in aid of voluntary action, and not in superseding voluntary action in the various localities of the country.'

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  And so it has been by the intelligent manufacturers of the North. But then I said—"Though that Act will enable a small rate in aid from local rates to subsidize voluntary action, yet you could not say this of the Treasury grant sent broadcast over the whole country; that at all events would supersede voluntary action." He said, "No, we have managed carefully to prevent that in Lancashire and Yorkshire; the manufacturers have combined together, and have organised a system of distributing the giant only in the way of aid to voluntary undertakings. In that way they have deprived this Treasury grant of the chief mischief to which it was likely to lead." What does this show? It shows me that a subsidy of this sort applies very differently to different parts of the country, just as the political franchise in an intelligent part of the country, like Lancashire and Yorkshire, is very differently used from what is the case in a simply rural district like Warwickshire or Wiltshire. In my own county, Warwickshire, I know when the sum of £9,000, the share of this Vote, came, they did not know what in the world to do with it; but they said "as it is a gift" (for they had already got in the country to look upon a Treasury grant as a gift from Heaven, and to forget entirely that it comes out of their own pockets, so far have they been demoralized by hanging upon the patronage of the Government)—"as it is a gift we had better take it and do something with it." In Lancashire and Yorkshire this Act has not done harm, because it has been so carefully treated as a subsidy to local undertakings; but I maintain that in a large part of the Kingdom the fatal tendency of such a largess as this must have a bad effect, from its not having been neutralized by specific appropriation and private organization, as has been done in Manchester. My Lords, I only say that I hope the Lord President will reply to the noble Earl opposite that the information shall be given us what the intentions of the Government are as to this Treasury grant in future; and I would add this—which I would move myself if necessary, but I cannot help hoping that the Lord President will say that he is perfectly willing to give it without a Motion—a Return of Parliament of the way in which the Treasury grant
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  has been expended up to this time by every County Council throughout the Kingdom.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK)My Lords, it is not at all unnatural that the noble Earl opposite and others interested in the work of County Councils should wish to know upon what footing they stand with respect to this Treasury grant. And, in the first place, I would just say, with regard to what my noble Friend behind me has said, that I do not quite understand his argument, which is—that where this grant is properly used it does good, or, at all events, does no harm; but that in other places, where it is improperly used, it apparently, in his opinion, is doing a great deal of harm. But he has not pointed out the places in which it is properly used, nor, in fact, has he come to any conclusion apparently upon this subject, like the County Councils themselves; for the County Councils have, very naturally, been using the money in rather a tentative manner, endeavouring to ascertain what was most suitable to the populations around them, and the best mode of meeting the wants of those particular districts. For that reason in many parts of the country the money has been distributed to the Urban Sanitary Authority or other authorities who know the wants of their particular localities, but, of course, keeping an account of the expenditure of that money and the mode in which it is dealt with. My noble Friend behind me wants a Return of all that has been done by the County Councils. That would be most voluminous. But I can tell him where he may find it in abstract most efficiently set forth, and that is in these two small books, published by a Society of which the Duke of Devonshire is the head, A Record of Technical and Secondary Education. They published the first number in November last, and the second in January last. So far as they go they seem to me to contain a most complete account of what is being done by the Councils. But with regard to the general statement of what has been done I find that, out of 62 County Councils in England and Wales, 52 are applying the whole sum received, under the Local Taxation Act, to technical instruction, while nine are giving a part to it; so that that accounts

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  really for all but one, and that one is the one which, as my noble Friend says, has received the largest sum—the County Council of London. Now, my Lords, there are some who would say that if you are to apply this sum specially to technical instruction (which is not quite the case at present, it is only giving the power to use it for technical instruction, and giving certainly a hint in the Act of Parliament that it should be so used), you must make it compulsory upon all County Councils to apply it in that way. But the time does not seem to me to have arrived for taking that step, because there has been shown such vigour and vitality on the part of County Councils that there is no need to put pressure upon them. With regard to the County Boroughs, I think it is very much the same. Out of the 63 County Boroughs, in every case, except Wolverhampton, the whole or nearly the whole amount has been so devoted. And, besides that, there is a very remarkable fact, which shows the zeal and energy that is going on in these different districts. For I find in a Return made by the same Society, which has taken trouble over the subject, that there are a great number of places (I need not enumerate them all, but I have a long list of them) which applied, not only the money they had so received, but rates that they have raised under the Technical Instruction Act, in order to further expedite the business they have in hand. My Lords, I am not going, at this stage of the business, to come to a definite conclusion as to how a system of technical instruction in these different districts would work; but this I would say: my noble Friend seems to be under the impression that a check has been put upon voluntary effort, in connection with this subject, by the grant which has been made by the Treasury. I believe it to be precisely the reverse. I believe it to be perfectly clear that there has been an enormous increase, both in the number of persons who apply themselves to this technical instruction, and in those who manage it. Look at what the effect has been in the Science and Art Schools, where we find we are put in the greatest possible difficulty by the enormous number of papers sent in for examination; 190,000 papers were sent in last year for examination in the Science
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  and Art Department. It has become a business that it is almost impossible to manage. And, in consequence of that, the Science and Art Department, guarded as they are now by the County Councils having these funds at their disposal, have altered, by a Minute from May next, the lower class education,on which considerable grants have been earned, and diverting them to a higher kind of education, so that the County Councils may not be working with them and paying double for the same thing; but that it may be divided: the Science and Art Department giving its attention, in the Science Department specially, to education which will bring people more forward and make them more fit for the occupations in which they are to be engaged. And upon this subject I would say one more word with respect to a point made by the noble Earl opposite who introduced this question, that the Act of Parliament prevented the teaching of trades. It was never meant that you should teach trades, and you could not do so effectually without interfering with the workshops. What the Act really means is this: That there is many a young man who may be in the workshop learning dexterity in the use of the materials so placed in his hand, but it is not the less important for him that he should attend the evening classes, as is done in certain parts of the kingdom, and learn the scientific use of those materials which are so put in his hands, and, not only to use them under the lecturer, but also by experiments to learn, in fact, that manual dexterity which begins as you see in the schools. We have enforced drawing in schools. But what is the reason for it? It is that the children learn manual dexterity. We are not going to make drawing masters, but to make persons begin their scientific education by means of using their scientific instruction dexterously with their hands as well as in their minds; very much as in Birmingham they have set up a sort of jewellery establishment, where they teach the scientific mode of dealing with jewels, but the people who come there are being employed in the workshops and learning manually. Many of your Lordships, I dare say, may have read an article by Lord Armstrong in, I think, the Nineteenth Century, which took the view very distinctly of rather de-

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  preciating technical instruction and the mere scientific system, because, he said, the only way in which the workman can really learn his work is in the workshop. So it is all through, as I think my noble Friend opposite will find. For instance, in dairying it is very difficult to say, when you are teaching the manipulation of butter by a scientific lecture, that you are not teaching a trade. Still, it is only after a long experience in the actual work of a dairy that an effective dairymaid is made; and yet the instruction she receives is a very good thing to begin with, that she may know the scientific principles upon which she has to work. So I hope in some of the schools where carpentering is taught in the general sense—that is to say, you make the boys draw the different things they are going to make, and they make them in wood, not for use, as they will afterwards have to make them in metal or otherwise probably, but to show that they have arrived at a scientific knowledge of the particular pursuit in which they are going to be engaged. They will be better workmen for working not only by rule of thumb, but by such scientific instructions as they will have received. I have looked through the different methods in which the County Councils have employed this money, and I am bound to say it strikes me that though in a great many instances, as they say themselves, it has been only a tentative process, they have gone very carefully to work, in order to ascertain how they may best discipline the young people of their counties. For instance, if you go to Bedfordshire you will find that a certain amount of the Vote has been devoted to technical instruction generally, but that also in certain districts it has been used for instruction in the straw work, which your Lordships know is one of the industries of that county, in which they learn the mode of manipulation; but it will take a long time before they will be actually workmen capable of bringing out the high class of produce for which that county is celebrated. I mention that as one instance. In other cases the County Councils have taken a different view; they have established colleges or scientific schools of different kinds, whether it be in horticulture, in bee-keeping, or other things, and they give scholarships from the
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  elementary schools to these colleges. And, my Lords, when I look at what has been done by the County Councils, and the way in which they have engaged the funds which have been placed in their hands, I cannot help recalling what was said by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he was asked by Lord Hartington in the House of Commons—I think more than a year ago—what was to be done with this money. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said—
  "I do not consider I am in a position to give any further or official assurance, but I may say that there are no suggestions before me for applying these grants to some other people, and I may add, as my personal opinion, that if the County Councils set themselves heartily to work, as in many instances they appear to be doing, to utilise the grant for important educational purposes, it would probably be difficult for any Minister to persuade Parliament to divert them, even if he desired himself to do so."
  My Lords, now the County Councils have stepped so far in that it would be impossible; and I do not hesitate to say that, inasmuch as the grants are made under an Act of Parliament, it seems to me that you have a guarantee, so far as this Government is concerned, that it has not the smallest intention of repealing that Act of Parliament, or taking the money for any other purpose; and I am quite convinced, from the mode in which that money has been laid hold of and used, and the mode in which the County Councils are taking steps to use it with even greater advantage, that no Government will repeal that Act of Parliament with a view of taking it from them. Whether the time may come when they should think it necessary to insist upon its being used in that particular form is not before us at present, and I will not dwell upon it. I may, however, say this: I do hope that the County Council of London will not be altogether backward in applying some of this money for the purposes for which, no doubt, although Parliament did not assign it for that particular object, it practically gave a strong recommendation that it should be employed. Here in London, where there are schools of every description where scholarships might be given, or instruction might be had for payment, and where in every way these schools which exist, voluntary and other, can be made more

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  efficient by an addition from the funds in the hands of the County Council, I hope the day is not far distant when that body, like the whole of the rest of the country, will not be sorry to improve the education of the young who are committed to their charge in this City, and that they will bring them under the same sort of discipline as the counties are endeavouring to bring their young people under. I hope the answer I have given to my noble Friend will be satisfactory with regard to the money. I do not know that the House would bear with me if I were to go into details of what the different County Councils have done. There is a very good record of it in these two small books, and I should only bore your Lordships by going into detail about it. I believe that, so long as you keep the technical instruction separate from the actual teaching of a trade, which would bring you into collision with workmen and unions in the country, so long as you do that as a means of improving the skill of the workmen, and not making the workmen themselves, you will be doing a good work. I do not trust too much to that to overcome what is done against you by other countries at much greater expense than we do here; but, at the same time, I hope it will be the means of bringing up a better class of workman to compete with the workman who is so highly educated abroad.

EAST INDIA OFFICERS BILL [H.L.] (No. 10.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS)My Lords, I have to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill. The Bill is not new to your Lordships, because in the year 1891—last year—I introduced this Bill into your Lordships' House; it went through Committee and also through the Grand Committee. I think the result of the labours of those Committees has been to introduce a good deal into the measure which might very fairly be left out; but I thought it better to introduce it in the form in which it left the Standing Committee and passed through your Lordships' House last year. At the same time, when we
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  go into Committee, if your Lordships give the Bill a Second Reading, I shall propose certain Amendments, solely for the purpose of greatly simplifying the drafting of this Bill. The object of the Bill is to enable the Secretary of State for India in Council, with the consent of the Governor General in Council, to allow certain officers, who at the present moment cannot come home to England without losing their appointments, to come home for a short period. The Governor General, the Governors of Madras and Bombay, the Commander-in-Chief of the Forces, the Commanders-in-Chief of Madras and Bombay, the Lieutenant Governors of Bengal and the North-West Provinces and the Punjaub, can none of them come home without vacating the office they hold. That, I think, was a very wise provision at the time it was passed, when the journey to India took a long time, and it would have been almost impossible to allow them to leave and come home, however important the business might be upon which their presence was required. But now that the journey is performed so quickly, and that one of these officers could come home and go back almost without any interruption of his office, it does seem to me that it would be very wise, under every precaution, to make some provision for allowing them to come home to England without vacating their offices. My Lords, once or twice the matter has come before me in this way: it was very important that a man should come home from India, in one or two cases because he was very much wanted in consultation; in another, for a short period because of health; but, although I have been pressed more than once to act, I have always refused to let an officer come home and then send him back and re-appoint him, because I thought it would be an evasion of the Act, and I never would consent to evade the Act. I have never attempted to do so, and I never intend to do so. But now let me take the case of the Commander-in-Chief for the moment. I can quite understand that it might be of the greatest possible advantage that he should come home for consultation with the Military Authorities here, and with the Government of the day upon many matters; but, as matters now stand, it would be quite impossible to summon him to England without his vacating the office absolutely and

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  entirely; and I think it would be an evasion of the Act to bring him home, letting him vacate the office, and then to re-appoint him and send him back again. Of course, it is for your Lordships to consider whether this measure should proceed as high as the Governors of Madras and Bombay, or whether it should go even as high as the Governor General himself; that is a matter entirely for your Lordships when it comes into Committee; but I hope that the principle of this measure will be accepted by your Lordships as it was last year, namely, that there should be some such power, guarded as much as you like. I have guarded it by saying that it should be done by the Secretary of State in Council, and should require the Governor General in Council also to approve; and I think that, if the Secretary of State in Council, on his own responsibility, were to say that it was wise that a man should come home for a short time, and if that opinion of the Secretary of State in Council was endorsed by the Governor General in Council, you have a very great safeguard against any abuse of the powers which this Bill proposes to give. I do not think I ought to take up your Lordships' time further by stating what the object of the Bill is. Your Lordships will remember that in one case we were obliged to pass a special measure to enable His Royal Highness the Duke of Connaught to come home for Her Majesty's Jubilee, and, at the time that Act was passed, it was stated openly by Mr. Childers, in the House of Commons, that he objected to a particular Bill, but that, if a general Bill was brought forward, he for one, at all events, and, he believed, a good many of the persons with whom he acted, would see no objection to passing such a measure. I have to ask your Lordships to read this Bill now a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Viscount Cross.)
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKMy Lords, I must apologise to your Lordships for not having been present when this Bill was brought in during the last Session of Parliament. In point of fact its title did not attract my notice, and it altogether escaped my observation. But, my Lords, it seems to me that there are many reasons against the
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  passing of this Bill. I must say that I failed to gather from the noble Viscount in his speech to-night, and I have read his observations of last year, that any public necessity has been shown for passing this Bill. I daresay the Government have been in communication with the Governor General in India on the subject, and will be able to put before your Lordships the opinion expressed by him in respect to this measure; and I should like very much to know what is the feeling of the Governor of India in Council with respect to the advisability of increasing the frequency of vacancies in the great offices in India. India is a country which is subject to most unexpected occurrences; and supposing the Governor General is away for six months, supposing the Governors of Madras and Bombay are away for six months, supposing the Commander-in-Chief in India is away for six months, and supposing the other Commanders-in-Chief are away for six months, and any serious circumstances were to occur in India in the absence of either of them, I think the consequences might be exceedingly grave. And I very much doubt, myself, whether it is desirable to give these facilities for these high officers of State to leave India. My Lords, the analogy, which the noble Viscount quoted last year, of the Colonies is not applicable, in my opinion, to India. The most part of the Colonies have Representative Institutions and Constitutional Governments, and the absence of the Governor of such a Colony for a short time does not appear to me to involve any of those consequences which the absence of the Governor General of India or of the Presidencies might involve in India. And, my Lords, I should like to have some further explanation from the Secretary of State for India in what circumstances the power of requiring the Governor General of India to come home is to be exercised. The noble Viscount very fairly said, in the course of his observations, that it is possible that in Committee this Bill might be made not to apply to the Governor General or to the Governors of Madras and Bombay. My Lords, if that is the case, there will be very little indeed left in the Bill. But I should like to know how this power is to be applied. What are the "public grounds," which are undefined in the Bill, which are to justify the Secretar

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  of State in requiring the Governor General or the Governors of Madras and Bombay, or the Commander-in-Chief, to come home? Are those "public grounds" matters of grave consequence affecting India? If they are, surely the place for the Governor General and these high officers is in India; if they are matters connected with this country, surely we ought to have some explanation as to what kind of matters are of sufficient importance to justify the Secretary of State in requiring the Governor General or the Commander-in-Chief to come home. We all felt, my Lords, that Her Majesty's Jubilee was an occasion when it was quite justifiable, as a perfectly exceptional circumstance, to bring home to this country the Commander-in-Chief in Bombay, His Royal Highness the Duke of Connaught. I do not think anybody could fairly quarrel with an exceptional Act of Parliament being passed in those circumstances. But, my Lords, in ordinary circumstances I cannot myself conceive that it would be right to summon the Commander-in-Chief in India home to this country. He is in a military position, perhaps the most responsible in the world, with dangers constantly occurring that cannot be expected. I must say, my Lords, that the whole policy expressed in this Bill—I will not go into details—appears to me to be open to very considerable doubt, and I trust, if your Lordships pass the Second Reading of this Bill, to which I should not myself be a consenting party, the Secretary of State will lay before the House some Papers showing that the matter has been considered, and, moreover, that he will consider whether there should not be some definition, even if this Bill goes forward, as to what the public grounds are to be on which, and some limit of time for which the Governor General may be required to come home by the Secretary of State. There is no limit whatever in the Bill. Absolutely the Governor General or the Commander-in-Chief may be sent for to come home by the Secretary of State, and may remain without any limit of time in this country. These are, I think, sufficient reasons to show your Lordships that this Bill requires further consideration. I will not dwell upon another matter; still, it is a matter of some importance. These officers are to come
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  home from India on public grounds connected with this country. Who is to pay the expense? I presume the Secretary of State will move in the other House that all expenses connected with the visit shall be paid out of the Imperial Revenues, because it would be very unfair upon the Indian Revenues that the expense should come out of the finances of India. Not that it would be any very great sum, but as a matter of principle. These matters are being watched by the people of India, and care should be taken to do justice to all parties, and if the visits home are to be on English grounds, care should be taken in another place to put the whole of the expense upon the finances of this country, and not, upon the finances of India. I myself, my Lords, am against increasing the facilities for people holding these high offices to vacate their appointments for a limited time. I think there is something to be said, if there is now any difficulty (I do not believe myself there is), in favour of enabling the Lieutenant Governors of Bengal, the North-West Provinces and the Punjaub, to come home on sick leave. I apprehend that they can do so now under the present law. I believe that, on a medical certificate, those officers may come home on sick leave for a certain time, and I say that, I think there is no objection to that; in point of fact, I think there is good reason for allowing it, because these officers are all officers belonging to the Indian Civil Service, and, therefore, it would be hard upon them, if their health broke down in those appointments, that they should not be allowed to come home on sick leave in the same way as they can if they fill the high appointments of Members of the, Governor General's Council. But that argument does not apply, in my opinion, to the other officers mentioned here;, it does not apply to the Governor General of India, to the Governors of Madras and Bombay, or to the Commander-in-Chief in India?it would not in any way interfere with his military position that he should have to give up his appointment—it does not apply to the Commanders-in-Chief of Madras and Bombay. My Lords, the reason why I object to any greater facilities being given for the vacation of these important offices is that, at present in India, the constant vacancies in offices, by reason of their

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  holders going away on sick leave and otherwise, is a great public evil. It is (to use a familiar expression) a general game of "post;" one man goes away and another is acting for him, and a third acts for the person transferred; so that all over India there is uncertainty as to who is really doing these important duties. And, I think, if you extend this system to officers filling these high appointments (and it would be extended if this Bill passes), you would be increasing an evil which is, even now, by no means of minor importance.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)My Lords, I shall not at all contest the criticisms which the noble Lord has passed upon the wording of this Bill. My noble Friend thought it right to adopt the wording taken in the Standing Committee, but I readily grant to the noble Lord that it will require a good deal of correction, and there are particular questions which I will readily leave as questions of detail to be debated on another stage of the Bill, if your Lordships think fit to give the Bill a Second Reading. But on the general principle I cannot concur with the noble Lord. The state of the case is this: that when these Acts were passed originally, which we are modifying now, it was impossible to get from India to England except by going round the Cape, and it took six or eight months to do so. At that time short leave was unknown. Gradually, as the means of communication increased, those parts of the Service of India which were not limited by Statute received the advantage (of which, perhaps, as the noble Lord says, they have too abundantly availed themselves) of privileged leave, and other forms of leave, which enabled them to come home from time to time. But the result of this stiff statutory law is not in any way to diminish the game of "post," of which the noble Lord complains; it is to create this anomaly: that some of the posts at the head of the Service, which are held by the oldest men—by the men who have been most tried, by the men to whom leave on medical certificates may be most absolutely necessary—to them it is impossible, while it is freely granted to all the rest of the Service. I do not think the noble Lord is entitled to put the onus upon us. He has to show why
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  we have to keep this strange anomaly standing quite by itself in the Service of the Queen, and which has grown up to its present proportions through the enormous alteration of the conditions of passage which have taken place. The noble Lord asks what evils there are. I decline to be committed to instances; it is impossible to give instances; instances would involve not only entering upon private affairs of individuals, but speaking of matters which properly ought not to be spoken of in public. But there are two inconveniences of the present system which are more or less grave. One of them is the impossibility of consultation; the other is that, owing to the difficulty of obtaining temporary leave, or medical leave, it is difficult to fill some of the offices mentioned in this Schedule. I do not mean to go into details; but nobody who has had anything to do with the filling of them will doubt the accuracy of what I say. I am quite ready to go into the question of limitations, if it is thought that limitations are necessary. If you cannot trust the Secretary of State in Council, I should not resist putting in any limitations which may be thought wise; but I think the time has come for departing from an arrangement which is evidently obsolete, and which is a hindrance, in more than one respect, to the proper carrying on of the Public Service. I speak feelingly from my own office when I say that consultation is of the essence of the Public Service, and one of the great advantages which the facilities of communication give to us now; and in the Foreign Office I know it is frequently used; I believe it is frequently used in the Colonial Office also, though I have no personal experience of that; but we are debarred from personal communication with the members of the Councils of the three Provinces by the state of the law. I do not wish to revert to old troubles; but my impression is that some points on which I had the misfortune to differ from the noble Lord very strongly, when we were in the respective offices of Secretary of State and Governor General, might have been entirely averted if it had been possible for me to send home for the persons principally concerned. I therefore think you are placing an unnecessary fetter and impediment on the usefulness of the Public Service. If you cannot trust those who have the adminis-

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  tration of these duties to exercise powers so large as are contained in this Bill, well, offer to us limitations of them. I will not exclude the idea of them; but I do hope the House will consent to depart from a system which in itself is anomalous and unwise.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYMy Lords, with respect to a portion of the Bill, I am not disposed to disagree with the noble Marquess opposite. For instance, with regard to the Governors General of Bengal, the North-West Provinces, and the Punjaub, I do not think there is any necessity for a restriction bearing upon them more than upon any other member of the Indian Service. It may be necessary to give them the power to come home either for consultation or for leave. But I confess I do feel, with my noble Friend Lord Northbrook, grave doubt as to the applicability of this Bill, either to the Governor General of India or to the Commander-in-Chief. There is no doubt much force in what the noble Marquess has said as to the advantage of consultation with officers with whom you have to act; but here we have to consider, as in most other matters, the balance of advantages, and we have to consider whether the possibility of the Governor General being brought home to Europe, for the purpose of consultation with the Government here, might not bring about evils greater than any advantage that could be derived. Your Lordships must bear in mind that there is no officer serving under the Government, certainly not an Ambassador or Colonial Governor, whose responsibility can in any degree be compared with that of the Viceroy of India. The Viceroy stands, as it were, on a pinnacle, and his personal responsibility is very great. In this country, whatever Government may be in Office aims, I think, to send out the most distinguished and able man who can be selected for the post, and that because we consider that it is not merely an administrative post that can be carried on by any man with the assistance of others, even if he is not of very high character and ability, but that upon the personal character, and influence, and ability of the Viceroy depends, to a very great extent, the conduct of that vast machine—the Government of the Empire of India. I think that the temptation to send for the Viceroy in
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  cases where serious difference arose between the Viceroy (himself probably a distinguished man) and the Government at home, would be very great. On both sides there would be a strong desire, probably by consultation, to avoid differences which on either side would be deplored, and it would be very difficult to resist an application on either side for the use of the power under this Bill. But it might be that serious danger might result, because in the Empire of India there might suddenly be some movement, internal or external, when the absence of the Viceroy and the occupation of his post by some temporary occupant might deprive the Government in India of that prompt action which, at such a time, is most essential. Therefore, while I do not deny the force of the argument put by the noble Marquess, I feel that on the other hand the disadvantages are, very serious. And I think the same thing applies to the Commander-in-Chief. The Commander-in-Chief is a soldier of the highest eminence, and is a man upon whom the greatest responsibility rests; and if there were to be any serious frontier war—still more, any serious outbreak in India in the absence of the Commander-in-Chief—some great calamity might result. I say nothing as to the Governors of the Punjaub or the North-West Provinces, or the Members of the Viceroy's Council, or even the Governors of Madras and Bombay; because, although I think the latter have not the same claim which the Governors of the Punjaub and the North-West Provinces have to leave—being only officers employed, as it were, temporarily in India—I do not feel that the position of Governor of Madras and Bombay, in point of importance and responsibility, differs so much from that of the Governor of Bengal and the North-West Provinces and the Punjaub that you can properly draw a distinction between them. I confine my objections, therefore, to the Governor General and the Commander-in-Chief. My Lords, I did not feel so strongly about the Bill last year; I had not had time to consult with others, and I felt a hesitation in throwing any obstacle in the way of the Bill. But, after the weighty observations of my noble Friend, who has himself been Viceroy, and whose opinions are certainly of value in the matter, I trust the

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  Government will give very careful consideration to the objections which he has raised.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.
  House adjourned at ten minutes before Six o'clock.