Lords Sitting of 1 April 1892

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.

  QUESTION.—OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Might I ask the noble Marquess when he proposes to adjourn the House for the Easter Recess, and for how long?
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): I think the noble Lord will sympathise with me when I say that we have not been overburdened with work, and that, at the pace the House of Commons is going, an immediate excess of work is not probable. I therefore propose that we should adjourn on Thursday next to Monday the 2nd of May.

DURATION OF SPEECHES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS BILL. [H.L.]

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD DENMAN: My Lords, I see no notice on the Orders of the Day for the postponement of this Order, and, as it has been for three years before your Lordships in one shape or another, I trust you will have patience with me whilst I explain the reason for which I have endeavoured to bring it forward. My Lords, since the last postponement of it a noble Lord on this side of the House made an extremely long speech, and during the whole of that speech it was impossible to say on which side his vote would be given. Well, my Lords, no noble Lord would have interrupted the speaker in the course of that Debate. Now this Motion of mine is really the most inoffensive measure that could possibly be submitted to any Assembly. My Lords, you have an hour glass for the time of taking a Division,—two minutes; you might have an hour glass as the preachers formerly had their hour glass and turned it over, and sometimes spoke for two hours. My Lords, I have bestowed great pains upon this Bill, and if it is read a second time it will neither commit you nor myself to any further steps in the matter. It is not
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  intended as an insult to the House, but it really is for the protection of those who do not wish to hear long unnecessary speeches. My nearest neighbour in Scotland has introduced a measure for reducing speeches at the County Council to ten minutes; and the noble Lord, the late High Commissioner of the Church of Scotland, wished it to be 15 minutes. But, my Lords, there was nothing to take away the invidious position of the chairman, because he alone would have to pronounce whether the time were up or not. What I have seen at the Diocesan Councils has operated extremely well; it has given offence to no man; and at Westminster Town Hall I was present at a meeting at which Dr. Cameron was chairman, when a foreigner wished to exceed his time for his paper, and was very indignant at being stopped. I ventured to interpose, and, I believe, gave offence to no one. My Lords, in a large meeting of delegates from the different Poor Law Unions the important question was discussed whether out-door relief should be altogether refused or granted with discrimination. Twenty-eight speakers spoke at that meeting, 18 for discrimination and ten against everything but the offer of the house to those who probably would not accept it. This occupied only one day; but, if unlimited time had been given to the speakers, of course a great deal more time would have been occupied. My Lords, I ventured to include the other House, but I was told that it was quite beyond the power of this House. At the same time it is perfectly well understood that, if any measure is introduced in this House, it can be adopted, if palatable, in the other House. That was the case with the Newfoundland Fisheries Bill, and it is a pity it did not begin in the other House. My Lords, I have had a very long experience in this House. I have spoken less, certainly not more often, than any other Member of the House, and I defy anyone to deny that proposition: and, if it be said that I have brought forward this Bill with any selfish motive my position shows that I have no such motive. My Lords, I earnestly beg you not to postpone the Second Reading. I shall be for ever grateful to you if you read the Bill a second time; but, if you do not let it pass, I shall think it is from a personal

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  antipathy to myself, and a determination that nothing which I propose shall ever be accepted. My Lords, with the utmost respect, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2ª."—(The Lord Denman.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I trust the noble Lord will not draw, from any conduct which I may pursue, any such gloomy inferences as those he has suggested. He appears to me, I confess, to be very similar to those saints of old of whom we read, who were accustomed to inflict upon themselves the most frightful sorts of discipline on account of sins from which they were notoriously free. I do not think that this House is guilty of many long speeches. The noble Lord appears to have heard some noble Peer make some long speech,—I wondered who it was, and I do not know now who it was. I think he might almost as well bring in a Bill to prevent too much business being transacted in this House, or the attendance on these Benches being too large. As the noble Lord says, the Bill will do no harm. I believe that is true. But, on the other hand, I am afraid it may give unintentional offence. I think that, when Members of the House of Commons read what we have been doing in our votes, they will say to themselves: "It is perfectly impossible that the House of Lords can have been serious in intending to apply to themselves this prohibition against long speeches,—it must have been a covert and circuitous way of reflecting upon the characteristics which some of us believe belong to the House of Commons;" and I am afraid that that Assembly might take it ill if we attempted, in this indirect fashion, to correct a deficiency which public opinion sometimes charges upon their proceedings. Desiring therefore to maintain perfect peace between the two Houses, I feel I have no other course but to move that this Bill be read a second time this day six months.
  Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and add at the end of the Motion ("this day six months.")—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  On Question whether ("now") shall stand part of the Motion, resolved in the negative.
  Bill to be read 2ª this day six months.
  LORD DENMAN: I beg leave to say that I should have wished the House to be divided upon this point. I really do not think I have deprived myself of the right to name a Teller. I have never called upon any noble Lord to support me, or done anything but what is open and straightforward; and to be deprived of the power of seeing which noble Lords wish to speak at great length, and which do not, is really a very great deprivation.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES (ACQUISITION OF LAND) BILL.

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD BASING: I have to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to a small measure which has passed the other House of Parliament, and has also I believe received the sanction and approval of the Government. It is a Bill to extend to all assurances by deed of land to Local Authorities for any purpose for which such Authorities are authorised to acquire land, certain exemptions from the provisions of the Mortmain Act which have been granted already in the case of elementary schools, public museums, dwellings for the working-classes and other such objects, the effect of which would be, if those exemptions were in force, to render it impossible for the conveyance of land to be made to any Public Authority for any public purpose except upon valuable consideration, or unless twelve months expired before amuse could be made of it. By way of illustration I may say that one of the objects of the Bill is that Country Road Authorities may thus acquire land by deed from neighbouring proprietors who may be willing to give it without selling it, for the purpose of improving their roads, straightening and rounding off corners, and so on. I believe the want of this provision has been found inconvenient in many cases. I can conceive of no possible objection to its being granted in the cases described—namely, where Local Authorities are authorised to acquire the land.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2ª."—(The Lord Basing.)
  LORD HERSCHELL: My Lords, I only want to say a word in support of

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  this Bill. I think it is a useful measure, although the noble Lord opposite said it was a small one. I should have introduced provisions of this sort last year into the Mortmain Bill, which I introduced myself; but for the fear of weighting it too much I strictly confined it to matters that appeared then to be more or less urgent. I am quite sure it will be a useful reform to amend the Act in this manner.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not want to interrupt the harmony and agreement that appears to have been entered into between my noble Friends on my right and on my left; but I must say that I regard this Bill with something like despair. We thought that we had settled the Mortmain Act, and I confess that I have never myself been very much enamoured of the Mortmain Act; but if once you are to have a codification of the Mortmain Act, and then you are going little by little to introduce exceptions, I do not know to what extent the codification of any branch of the law will extend. I must say I very much protest against the mode in which this alteration is effected. Is there any noble Lord in the House who knows the extent and degree to which this Act will extend? I do not believe there is one of your Lordships who does, for this reason: that instead of saying plainly what is wanted, by this Bill Section 6 of the Mortmain Act is to apply—
  "Not only to the assurances therein mentioned, but also to any assurance by deed of land to any Local Authority, for any purpose or purposes for which such Authority is empowered by any Act of Parliament to acquire land";
  and then,
  "For the purpose of this Act, 'Local Authority' has the same meaning as in the Local Loans Act, 1875, and 'assurance' has the game meaning as in the Mortmain and Charitable Uses Act," 1888."
  I cannot help thinking that this is a very bad example of a very bad system of legislation, by the reference of one Act to another without giving in the slightest degree the true effect and meaning of the Act as it is proposed to be passed. And I myself do not know (and I must confess the same ignorance that I have imputed to your Lordships) to what extent it will go. I must say to my noble Friend in charge of the Bill that, between
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  this time and the time when it comes before the Standing Committee, I will take care to make myself acquainted with it; and, although I do not propose to oppose the Second Reading, I shall certainly see whether it will not be necessary to excise some of the powers by this Bill given to any Local Authority for any purpose whatever. It seems to me much too wide, and, at all events, to require very careful consideration.
  LORD HENNIKER: My Lords, I do not wish to make any remark of course upon what the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has said. He knows far better about these things than I can pretend to do; but so far as this Bill concerns the Department I represent in this House, there is no objection whatever to the Second Reading. At the same time, it is thought that a great many Amendments may be brought forward when the Bill comes into Committee; and of course when notice is given of those Amendments they will be considered.
  LORD HERSCHELL: I may perhaps be allowed to say one word, with a view to the next stage, with reference to my noble and learned Friend's observations about the codifying of the Mortmain Laws. My noble and learned Friend does not mean of course that, because you codify, you are never to amend; but what he has said does suggest, I think, that it would be desirable to consider whether the title of the Bill should not be altered. It really is an Amendment of the Mortmain Act by the extension of Section 6, and the definition of "assurance" is that which is in the Mortmain Act; and I suggest that the title, instead of being the "Local Authorities (Acquisition of Land) Act," should be the "Mortmain and Charitable Uses Act, 1892, to be read with the principal Act." I think that would be an improvement in view of the fact that the law has been codified.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: With regard to something that fell from my noble and learned Friend as to legislation by Reference, I wish to throw out for consideration by the authorities in this House,—I do not like to propose it until it has been sufficiently considered,—whether it would not be possible to adopt a useful reform in that respect into our proceedings here. Nobody imagines of course that the system of legislation by Reference is more convenient for those

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  who have to administer or interpret the law; but it is much more convenient for those who have to pass the law. It is found that many Bills actually would not pass at all unless some such contrivance were introduced. I believe we owe to Lord Thring the original devising of that plan, or at least the extending of it to a large area; but I would suggest that, without interfering in the least with the salutary practice of passing Bills in that way, when they get to the last stage of this House we should then substitute for the Reference the quotation from the enactment to which we refer, which would very greatly assist the researches of those who have afterwards to ascertain what the law is, and how it is to be administered. The only evil would be that it would add slightly to the printer's bill; but I do not think that would be a formidable drawback.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2ª accordingly, and referred to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

HARES BILL.

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
  LORD DENMAN: My Lords, there is an extraordinary inconsistency in this Bill, for hare hunting is prohibited during the whole of March. Living in a very inclement county, we find it very difficult even to begin hare hunting, because the frost comes and stops us; and now we shall be obliged to stop before March. It is said in the almanacks that hare hunting ends on the 20th of February. It has gone on a great deal longer; but, at the same time, masters of harriers must recollect that they will be subjected to a penalty if they hunt the hare after February. My Lords, I am extremely glad to see this protection afforded to hares, for I much prefer stag hunting to any other sport. My Lords, I point this out,—that masters of harriers may prepare and get as much hare hunting as ever they can. I am very glad the Bill is passed. The late Clerk of the House, the most distinguished Clerk that ever lived, Mr. Cooper, was so fond of hares that his history of his attachment to them, and their attachment to him, makes me very glad when anything can exempt them from
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  pain: and we know that being torn in pieces must be dreadful pain. It has always been my object to be at the end of a run and take the hare up and break its neck, and I should like to break anybody else's neck who opposes the Bill.
  Bill read 3ª (according to order), with an Amendment, and passed and returned to the Commons.
  House adjourned at ten minutes before Five o'clock.