HL Deb 30 June 1891 vol 354 cc1825-31

Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.

THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN)

I have to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill to amend the Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Act, 1887. The main objects of this Bill are to transfer the authority as stated in Clause 1:— As from the passing of this Act the powers under section 9 of the principal Act of the Local Government Board, as to England and Wales, and of the Secretary for Scotland, as to Scotland, shall be transferred to, and vested in, the Board of Agriculture, and the powers under the same section of the Local Government Board for Ireland shall be transferred to, and vested in, the Irish Land Commission. The other objects of the Bill are to provide adequate accommodation to the satisfaction of the Board of Agriculture for the weighing of cattle. By the Act of 1887, it was provided that weighing machines were to be provided in all markets and other places for the sale of cattle; but it has been found that those machines have been placed in inconvenient positions, and that there has not been adequate accommodation provided in the shape of pens and otherwise. Generally it will be found that there are amendments in the Act of 1887, and there is a provision that returns are to be provided compulsorily, but only in the places which will be found mentioned in the Schedule. A Royal Commission on Market Rights and Tolls sat in 1888–9; and this Bill has been drawn with the view of carrying out the main provisions recommended in the Report of that Commission. I beg to move the Second Reading of the Bill.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl Cadogan.)

THE DUKE OF THE RICHMOND AND GORDON

My Lords, I am not going to raise any objection to the Second Reading of this Bill; but I could have wished that the noble Lord had given us some more cogent reasons for this Bill being introduced. He says it was to amend the Act passed in 1887, and I dare say that, in so far as it amends it, in the first place there is no great objection to it, because it transfers the powers of the Local Government Board, and vests them in the Board of Agriculture. The noble Lord has not alluded to various clauses in the Bill.

EARL CADOGAN

If the noble Duke will forgive me, I mentioned Clauses 2 and 3.

THE DUKE OF THE RICHMOND AND GORDON

I believe my noble Friend did allude to Clause 2, but I think he left out a part of Clause 3, which, to my mind, is one of very serious importance, I mean that part of Clause 3 that the prices at which cattle are sold in the market shall be given to the Board of Agriculture. I want to know whether the noble Lord by that clause intends that if I go to a market and sell my stock to anybody I choose, without having them weighed, the price of the cattle is to be given to the authority, and by the authority forwarded on to the Board of Agriculture. I am quite aware that the measure applies only to a certain number of places which are named in the Schedule; but I am very much afraid that, if the measure is passed with those places named in it, it will not be long before we are told that there is an excellent precedent in this measure for the proposal that it should be made to apply to all markets throughout the country. I quite understand that if the cattle are weighed in the market, the weight of the animals and the price at which they are sold should be stated, because that may be for the benefit of the public, and it may be quite right that information should be given to the authority to be sent up to the Board of Agriculture; but I think it would be excessively despotic to step in and say that the price of all the animals I sell at that market is to be made public, and that I must give it to the authority for that purpose. The title of the Bill refers to the weighing of cattle, but it goes further than that in its provisions, because it directs that the price of the cattle shall be sent up to the authority in London. I daresay my noble Friend will say that this applies only to a certain number of places, namely, those mentioned in the Schedule, but perhaps he will forgive me if I call his attention to Clause 4, which says:— Every auctioneer who sells cattle at any such mart as aforesaid shall, unless exempted as aforesaid, make the like Returns to the Board of Agriculture with respect to cattle entering, weighed, and sold at that mart as are required by this Act to be made by a market authority, and shall be subject to the like penalty for making any false or fraudulent statement in any such Return. Therefore, although in certain points it is confined to the towns named in the Schedule, every auctioneer throughout the country—not confined to the towns mentioned in the Schedule—is bound, when he sells these animals, to make a Return to the Board of Agriculture.

EARL CADOGAN

I beg the noble Duke's pardon; it is unless he obtains an exemption from the Board of Agriculture.

THE DUKE OF THE RICHMOND AND GORDON

Yes, but I know perfectly well what that means. I should like my noble Friend, if he is agriculturally inclined, when he objects to having his stock included in these provisions, to go up to the Board of Agriculture and make out his case. I think I can be pretty near certain what the answer would be. He would be told that it is for the general interests of the country and that, surely, he would not stand in the way of so great a public benefit. The noble Lord may certainly go and remonstrate to the Board of Agriculture if he pleases, but I do not think his remonstrance will have much effect. If he desires to have the weighing done in the market, that is all very well; but what I complain of here is that by this section you are compelled to give the prices of the animals you sell, whether they are weighed or not. I will not trouble your Lordships any longer, nor, as I before said, should I oppose the Second Reading, but I think the noble Lord will agree with me, and see that in Clause 3 it is necessary to put in words to meet the objections I have indicated. If he really means that this is a Bill to deal with the weighing of cattle, I think the noble Lord will see-that it is necessary at the end of Clause 3 to add the words, after "cattle," "and the price of cattle so weighed sold thereat."

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

My. Lords, I am very glad Her Majesty's Government have seen their way to introduce this Bill, which appears to me a very useful measure. The practice of weighing cattle has, under the operation of the Act of 1887, been largely extended throughout the country, and especially in Scotland and Ireland, and I know as a fact that many persons who have taken to weighing their cattle have found that they have derived great advantage from the practice. I do not share the apprehensions of the noble Duke that we shall be brought under a despotism in consequence of the Clauses introduced into this Bill. No doubt the Bill does go a little further in regard to the practice of weighing cattle than the Act of 1887 did, but it is in consequence of inquiry made into the subject, and the Report of the Royal Commission on Market Rights and Tolls, and their re- commendations that the new provisions have been embodied. I admit that under Clause 3, for the first time, the practice of giving Returns is made compulsorily. I submit it is very desirable, and for the advantage of all farmers and of agriculturists of all kinds, that we should have as complete Returns as we can, and I do not think there is any reason for any person who has sold cattle, whether they have been weighed or not, to object that any great secret is disclosed, or, that they are injured in any way by the fact that the price given for the animals is to be returned for the advantage of the public. I think noble Lords connected with Scotland especially will constantly have seen in all the principal papers, price-lists, giving the weight, price, and quality of cattle.

*THE MARQUESS of WATERFORD

And in Ireland also.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

Those Returns are given most fully in the newspapers every day. And I would make this remark, that the advantage of weighing cattle is greatest for the purpose of buying store cattle. People find out by comparing the price of store cattle with the price of fat cattle what they may have to give, and by going very much on the arithmetical figures they can often buy fat and store cattle in the market. In that way the agricultural interest has derived very great advantages from the operation of the Act of 1887, and I am glad to see that those advantages are considerably extended by this Bill. I think if the noble Lord will look at Clause 3 he will see that in the last words of it there is some ambiguity. There are Returns to be given. With respect to the number of cattle, entering, and the number and weight of cattle weighed at the marketer fair, and the price of the cattle sold thereat. I admit that if a man sells beef apparently to a butcher it would be a very great hardship if he were compelled to pay a fee for having it weighed; but I do not myself see why if the market authority were called upon to weigh the animal it can do the animal any harm to be weighed, provided the market authority pay the fee, so as to be able to send the necessary information to the Board of Agriculture. Clause 4 no doubt does impose an obligation, I believe for the first time, upon auctioneers; but I happen to know that the large auctioneers in Scotland now send this information of their own free will, and I believe that considerable advantage is derived from the practice. I hope this Bill will be passed into law, and I believe it will be an improvement in its operation and effect even upon the present practice, which undoubtedly has been of great advantage.

A noble LORD

Perhaps the noble Earl who has charge of this Bill will allow me to ask why in Ireland the weighing authority has been transferred to the Land Commission?

EARL CADOGAN

I really cannot say. It was considered the proper authority to transfer it to. Has the noble Lord any objection to raise?

A noble LORD

No. I would only remark that there does not seem to me to be any connection between the Land Commission and market affairs.

*THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD

Perhaps I may be allowed to give the noble Lord an answer with regard to the Land Commission. The Land Commission were employed to collect statistics throughout Ireland, and they have done so, in order to be able to fix what are called fair rents, and they have, in fact, inaugurated an Agricultural Department. The original market authority in Ireland was the Local Government Board, and they have consented to hand their duties over to the Land Commission, who, as I have said, have established an Agricultural Department. The Land Commission have done very useful work throughout Ireland by the publication of the prices to-be obtained in the different markets. I think great credit is due to them for what they have done in this respect, and I think this Bill will be of the greatest advantage to Ireland, as it will enable the farmers in the different districts to ascertain the prices of store cattle, and also of fat cattle. The noble Duke objected to a Return being required, without the consent of the owner of the cattle, but I would point out that it could not hurt the noble Duke or any other person, if the Returns were given without his name being attached to them. The Returns would merely state that a certain num- ber of cattle were sold at a certain price, and nobody could possibly ascertain that they were the noble Duke's or anybody else's cattle. I hope the noble Earl who has charge of the Bill will ask the House to pass it in very much the form it is at present.

On Question, agreed to.

Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.