SEAL FISHERY (BEHRING'S SEA) BILL.(No. 148.) (Hansard, 8 June 1891)

§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)
My Lords, I have to move the Second Reading of this Bill, which is connected with negotiations which have been in progress for some time, in reference to Behring's Sea, and the differences which have arisen between the United States and our Government upon them. It is a matter which, of course, does not interest this mother country, in the first instance, directly, but mainly interests the Dominion of Canada; and in mentioning the Dominion of Canada I feel that before referring to the provisions of the Bill, I can hardly do otherwise than express the very deep grief with which all parties in this country have heard of the great loss the Dominion has sustained by the death of Sir John Macdonald. Whatever opinions may be entertained—and necessarily, in Party fights, different estimates will be formed —whatever estimate may be made of the views he took upon the various issues that were presented to him, there can be no doubt that he was a great statesman, as great a statesman of the constitutional kind as any our generation has seen, and that to his efforts Canada owes the marvellous progress which, above all the domains of the British Crown, she has exhibited in recent years. The Dominion has deep cause to regret the loss of 1806 a statesman who has so largely contributed to lay the foundation of her great prosperity and progress, and the British Empire has deep cause to regret the death of a statesman who was through life its devoted champion. My Lords, the measure I am now proposing to your Lordships is one for enabling Her Majesty to stop seal hunting on the part of the British subjects in Behring's Sea for periods specified in an Order in Council. The first aim of this provision is to enable Her Majesty's Government to come to an agreement with the United States to suspend the hunting for seals in Behring's Sea, or a great part thereof, during the ensuing season. As your Lordships are aware, there has been for some time a very vigorous discussion proceeding between the United States and this country. The United States have asserted claims over the open sea, and a right to stop the hunting of seals in that sea, which Her Majesty's Government have not admitted and cannot admit. After much discussion we have agreed in principle that our difference shall be referred to arbitration, and we hope that the terms on which that arbitration is to be established are almost agreed upon. I believe that very few points of difference remain, but in the meantime the cause which, according to the statement of the President, has mainly actuated the United States, namely, the desire to prevent the extermination of an animal which sustains a valuable industry—that question remains unsolved, and there are many persons in the United States who are of opinion that if we wait until the work of arbitration is completed, a very serious, if not a fatal, blow may have been struck against that industry. There is no doubt that the catch of seals has increased largely of recent years, and some experts declare that grounds which were formerly covered with them are now almost denuded. I do not at all conceal from myself that that opinion is not universal. The Government of Canada, I think, doubts very much whether the statistics on this point are correct; but, at all events, these apprehensions have this circumstance in their favour—that unrestricted permission to all nations to hunt the seal at all times has resulted in other parts of the world in its entire ex- 1807 termination. Formerly seals were common on the coasts of South America and at the Falkland Islands; now they are hardly to be found there. There is, therefore, a serious danger to be averted, and we can hardly wonder that the United States should be anxious that an industry, which to them is so very valuable, should not incur any danger from neglect. They propose that over that part of the sea which they are authorised by their own Congress to deal with, and on all the islands and coasts belonging to the United States, there shall be no sealing until the month of May, 1892, if Her Majesty's Government will arrest the progress of British seal hunting in the same waters during the same time. It seems to us that on the whole this is a reasonable proposition, and that we should be justly incurring the censure, not only of the United States, but of the civilised world, if by adhering too closely to any technical right we were to run the risk of the destruction of this valuable industry and valuable animal. Of course we are aware that some injury may be done by these arrangements to private interests, the claims of which it will be necessary to meet. The notice has come late in the year, and the seal hunters have made preparations which cannot now be stopped. Ships have been fitted out for sealing in these particular waters which may not be able to find employment elsewhere. On the other hand, there is no doubt that seals which are caught more to the west will very much rise in price, and a certain compensation will to that extent be afforded. It is impossible to say beforehand whether there will be any practical loss or not, or to what extent that loss will go. The consent of the Dominion of Canada to the Bill we propose mainly turns upon two points. First, that the United States should agree with us with respect to arbitration, which I believe they fully intend to do, and, secondly, that compensation should be given whenever there has been a real loss in consequence of the action of the British Government. Who is to pay that compensation is a more abstruse question. We do not deny that, if compensation should be required, a part of it may properly fall on the British Government. We are inclined to dispute that the whole should The Marquess of Salisbury 1808 fall upon the British Government. I do not know whether we shall persuade the Dominion of Canada to take our view upon that point; but time presses, and it would be impossible to defer action until, by the exchange of telegrams, this difficult question should have been solved. Therefore, in the first instance, as stated in the House of Commons, we have assumed the liability for compensation. I do not think that in any case it can be heavy. The provisions of the Bill are few and short, and I do not think they lend themselves much to criticism. There is only one change that I desire to be allowed to make in the Bill; it is not a large matter, and it is in the nature rather of restricting than of extending its action. I wish to be able to alter the sixth line of the first clause. Instead of its reading that— Her Majesty the Queen may, by Order in Council, prohibit the catching of seals by British ships in Behring Sea, during the period limited by the Order, I would add— Or any such part thereof as may be named in the said Order. It is obviously necessary that our prohibition should be exactly co-terminous with that of the United States, and I do not know how far they will be inclined to go. That is not, however, a question of principle, or a difficult matter. There is no other alteration which I have to make in the Bill, and it would, no doubt, diplomatically, be very convenient if your Lordships, after reading the Bill a second time, are willing to pass it through its remaining stages to-night. Of coarse, if there is any strong objection to that course, I cannot urge it; but time, as I have said, is running out, and every day or two days is of importance. With these observations, I beg to move the Second Reading of the Bill.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
Before I offer any remarks upon the Bill I desire to fully re-echo the Prime Minister's expression of regret, which I am sure is felt by every Member of this House, at the great loss which has been sustained by the Dominion of Canada, and I may say by the Empire at large, in the death of Sir John Macdonald. With 1809 a short exception the reins of Government have been almost entirely in his hands since the formation of the Dominion, and it was certainly a singular good fortune to Canada and the Empire that a statesman of his powers and ability should have been found to conduct the Government of the Dominion during the extremely critical period which followed its formation. I think it is not too much to say that the solidity of the Dominion and the prospect of its permanence are in a great degree owing to the wisdom, foresight, and energy with which he conducted its Government. I need add nothing more with regard to Sir John Macdonald, whose acquaintance I had the honour to psssess. and with whom I have had the pleasure many times to transact business, than to say that he was not only a colonial statesman, who conducted colonial affairs with great wisdom, discretion, and success, but that he was distinguished by a thorough attachment to this country and to the Empire at large, and by a loyalty which he displayed on all occasions. With regard to the Bill itself, I have no criticism to offer, and I should rather con-line myself to an expression of satisfaction at the prospect of this controversy being terminated. I have had the opportunity, as your Lordships have had, of reading the Despatches of the noble Marquess on this subject, which have been published, and for my own part, I most willingly say that I have seen with great pleasure the firmness with which he has maintained the right of this country to use an open sea. At the same time, in a matter of this kind, which involves the relations between two great countries such as Great Britain and the United States, it is clearly for the advantage of both that any disputes or claims arising between the two countries should be settled by arbitration and by peaceful means, and, therefore, I welcome the announcement of the noble Marquess that the terms of arbitration are practically settled, so that we may look forward to a speedy and complete determination of this dispute. I only wish now to ask the noble Marquess, if he can give us any information upon the point, whether it is not also necessary that as Russia has also a considerable interest in these seas, an understanding with Russia should be arrived at. I should 1810 be glad to know whether that has been done. There was one point which I was sorry to hear has not been settled, although I daresay the reason given by the noble Marquess of not delaying the Bill is abundantly sufficient. I am sorry to hear that no agreement has been come to with the Government of the Dominion with regard to the question of compensation. Certainly it appears that, the Dominion having so large and so direct an interest in the question, a portion, at all events, of the compensation should be borne by the Government of Canada. That would be only reasonable. However, that question may be settled hereafter, and I can only say that as no one desires to impede the progress of the Bill, I think the House will assent to the suspension of the Standing Orders, which the noble Marquess desires to obtain.

LORD DENMAN
My Lords, I think this is an exceedingly useful Bill. At the same time the remark of the noble Earl as to the necessity of a good understanding with Russia is one which affects me very deeply, for in 1860, my brother, who is now a judge, and the late Lord Shaftesbury attended one of the sensational meetings in Guildhall, when the wish was expressed that the British Ambassador should be withdrawn from Russia, and I denounced such conduct in the House at the time. I wish to explain that I was only at the Guildhall meeting a very short time, because I did not think it at all right to interfere with the domestic government of Russia, and I earnestly hope that we shall always consider the difficulties in which the rulers of that country are placed. We must be very careful not to say anything which ill-meaning parties may twist into hatred for their rulers, and I beg to say that I thoroughly disapprove of any attempt to move the Czar of Russia, except by communication through his Ambassador. Coming to the immediate objects of this measure, I believe it is to the interest of all nations that a close time should be reserved for the seals, and it is necessary that there should be facilities afforded between each country for mercantile transactions.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
With reference to what the noble Lord (the Earl of Kimberley) said, we have 1811 ascertained that the Russian Government are entirely favourable to our views. We have not an actual agreement with them. There is, I believe, some difficulty as to the form the agreement should take, but I hope we may persuade them simply to state the periods during which sealing shall be unlawful for their subjects, which will be sufficient for the purpose. If I might correct one word which was used by the noble Earl, he said he was glad to hear that we were "practically agreed" upon the terms of our arbitration; I said "nearly" agreed upon the terms of it. That is a shade of difference which I am obliged to take. I have no further observations to make, and I now move that the Bill be read a second time.