Lords Sitting of 3 August 1891

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX. considered (according to order), and dispensed with for the remainder of the Session.
FOREIGN MARRIAGES BILL.—(No. 282.)
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
WESTERN HIGHLANDS AND ISLANDS (SCOTLAND) WORKS BILL.—(No. 284.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN): My Lords, I do not know that it is necessary for me to go into details upon this Bill. If your Lordships will look at the Bill you will see that its objects are detailed in the Memorandum, and I think it is un-necessary that I should go into any long statement of the causes which have led up to its being introduced into Parliament. It is purely a Rating Bill. As your Lordships are probably aware, the condition of the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland has occupied the attention of Her Majesty's Government for a considerable period. Commission after Commission has been appointed, inquiry after inquiry has been made into the condition of the Western Highlands and Islands, with the uniform result of showing that owing to domestic misfortunes, such as the failure of harvests, and the failure of the fishing and other industries, the condition of that part of Scotland is very unfortunate. In consequence of what had gone before, I last year appointed a Commission to inquire into the matter, and ascertain what means might be the best to adopt for alleviating this chronic condition of distress. That Commission made two Reports. The general result of those Reports was: first, that the means of communication between the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland and
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  the central markets should be increased: secondly, that the facilities for carrying on the fishing industry should be also increased, and with that object they reported that, in the first place, the means of steam communication with the Western Highlands and Islands should be improved; secondly, that an improvement should be made in the telegraphic Communication; thirdly, that additional lights should be placed along the coast; and fourthly—I am only stating generally the result—that the railway communication also should be improved. With regard to the latter point, a small Committee is at this moment inquiring into which railway system would best afford the means of communication recommended by the Commission. With regard to the other points, a great deal has already been done; the steam communication has been already improved, and the telegraphic communication added to; the lights which have been recommended by the Commissioners are now in course of erection, and, as I have said, a Committee is now sitting inquiring into the subject of railway communication. But there was a further recommendation made by the Commissioners, and that was, that the harbours and piers and boat-slips should all receive attention. They recommended that certain larger harbours should be provided, and those works will be carried out, if it is found possible to carry them out at all, in the usual way under Provisional Orders; but they also recommended that small harbours and boat-slips should be erected. Of course it would be unnecessary, if not absolutely impossible, that Provisional Orders should in the ordinary course be obtained for carrying out every one of these small harbours and boat-slips. The cost of any of them will not exceed a few hundred pounds; and under the Bill which I am now asking your Lordships to read a second time the extreme limit of cost of any works to be carried out must not exceed £2,000. So that the expenditure upon none of the works undertaken can be very large in extent. The money has already been granted by the House of Commons. Her Majesty's Government have thought it necessary that some provision should be made for the future maintenance of any works to be erected

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  under the grant of Parliament. The object of this Bill is simply to give to County Councils of counties which are affected by the Bill the power of levying rates for the maintenance of the harbours; and in case of necessity, if the rates should not prove to be sufficient, the power of borrowing money in order that the works may be properly maintained. Those are the general objects of the Bill. There is nothing of a contentious nature in the proposals made in it, and I have, therefore, now only to ask your Lordships to give the Bill a Second Reading.
  Bill read 2a (according to order); Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been dispensed with), Bill read 3a, and passed.

  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.—(No. 288.)
    PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.—(No. 289.)
    Read 2a (according to order); Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been dispensed with). Bills read 3a and passed.
  REDEMPTION OF RENT (IRELAND) BILL. (No. 280)
    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.—(No. 283.)
    House in Committee (according to order); Bills reported without Amendment: Then (Standing Order No. XXXIX. having been dispensed with), Bills read 3a, and passed.

    WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE BILL [H.L.] (No. 37.)
    Moved—
    "That the Bill, which on the 17th of February last, was ordered to be read a second time that day six months, be placed on the list for To-morrow."—(The Lord Denman.)
    Motion agreed to.

IMPRISONMENT UNDER THE VACCINATION ACTS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Secretary of State has no power, under Section 38 of the Prisons Act of 1877, to mitigate the treatment in prison of persons imprisoned for non-payment of fines imposed under the Vaccination
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  Acts, said: My Lords, I understand that the noble Lord who takes charge of Home Office matters in this House can answer me this question. It arises out of a question asked by my noble and learned Friend Lord Herschell, who has left town. The section in question—Section. 38 of the Prisons Act of 1877—says that—
  "The Secretary of State may, from time to time, make, and when made, repeal, alter, or add to Rules with respect to the classification and treatment of prisoners imprisoned for noncompliance with the order of a justice or justices to pay a sum of money, or imprisoned in respect of the default of a distress to satisfy a sum of money adjudged to be paid by order of a justice or justices, so that such Rules are in mitigation and not in increase of the effect of such imprisonment, as regulated by the Prisons Act, 1865."
  I apprehend that the case of these persons imprisoned for not paying their fines under the Vaccination Acts would come under this clause, and my desire is to know whether the Secretary of State has power to mitigate the effects of the sentences?
  *LORD DE RAMSEY: My Lords, I must largely repeat what I said in answer to the question put to me by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Herschell) last Friday. This section does not apply to convicted criminal prisoners. The law on the subject is explained in the case which I mentioned last Friday of "Kennard v. Simmons and others" (15 Criminal Law Cases, p. 397), in which Lord Justice Lindley, in 1884, seven years after the passing of the Prisons Act of 1877, explained the distinction between money adjudged to be paid on a conviction and money simply ordered to be paid. The power of the Secretary of State to make such Rules as the Justices might have made under Section 21 of the Prisons Act, 1865, is confined to framing dietary tables; and his power under Section 102 (Schedule I.) of the Prisons Act, 1805, is confined to prisoners who are not debtors and not criminal prisoners. A person imprisoned for non-payment of fines imposed under the Vaccination Acts is a "criminal prisoner." I would point out to the noble Earl that twice in that Section (38) of the Prisons Act, 1877, to which he refers, the expression occurs "imprisoned for non-compliance with an order of a justice or justices," and

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  then, further on, it says "adjudged to be paid by order of a justice," marking distinctly, therefore, the difference between the convicted criminal offender and the man whose case could be dealt with in a different way, as I have already mentioned.

  HIGHWAYS AND BRIDGES BILL. (No. 334.)
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  LAND REGISTRY (MIDDLESEX DEEDS) BILL [H.L.]—(No, 246.)
    LUNACY BILL [H.L.]—(No. 247.)
    Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered (on Motion), and agreed to.
  SCHOOLS FOR SCIENCE AND ART BILL [H.L.]—(No. 193.)
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments to be printed, and to be considered to-morrow. (No. 290.)
  MARKETS AND FAIRS (WEIGHING OF CATTLE) BILL.—(No. 243.)
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to, with Amendments, and a Consequential Amendment to the Bill: The said Amendments and Consequential Amendment to be considered to-morrow.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION BILL. (No. 257.)
  Returned from the Commons with several of the Amendments agreed to; one agreed to, with an Amendment; and several other Amendments disagreed to, with Reasons for such disagreement: The said Amendments and Reasons to be printed, and to be considered tomorrow. (No. 291.)
  PURCHASE OF LAND AND CONGESTED DISTRICTS (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 260.)
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments made by the Lords to the Amendments made by the Commons to the Amendments made by the Lords agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments to be printed, and to be considered to-morrow. (No. 292.)
  COUNTY COUNCILS (ELECTIONS) BILL. (No. 248.)
    PENAL SERVITUDE BILL.—(No. 249.)
    Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  CONVEYANCING AND LAW OF PROPERTY ACT, 1881, AMENDMENT BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a tomorrow.—(The Earl of Kimberley.) (No. 29.3.)
  LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a tomorrow.—(The Lord de Ros.) (No. 294.)

  STATUTORY RULES PROCEDURE BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 295.)
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed.
  The Lord Foxford (E. Limerick)—Chosen Speaker.

  TRUSTEE SAVINGS BANKS.
  Scheme for the appointment of an inspection committee of Trustee Savings Banks for determining the mode in which the members of the committee are to be appointed, and their term of office, and, subject to the provisions of the Savings Banks Act, 1891, their powers, procedure, and duties: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  FACTORIES AND WORKSHOPS BILL. (No. 256.)
  Returned from the Commons with several of the Amendments agreed to; one other Amendment agreed to, with an Amendment; and several other Amendments disagreed to, with Reasons for such disagreement: The said Amendments and Reasons to be printed, and to be considered to-morrow. (No. 296.)
PUBLIC HEALTH (LONDON) BILL. (No. 255.)
Returned from the Commons with several of the Amendments agreed to; and several other Amendments agreed to, with Amendments and Consequential Amendments to the Bill: The said Amendments and Consequential Amendments to he printed, and to be considered to-morrow. (No. 297.)
COINAGE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a tomorrow.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.') (No. 298.)

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Ordered, That the Evening Sitting of the House to-morrow do commence at a quarter past Four o'clock.
House adjourned at twenty minutes before One o'clock a.m., till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.