§ *EARL SPENCERMy Lords, I have given private notice to my noble Friend the noble Earl who represents the Local Government Board of a question of considerable importance to County Councils, which I desire to ask. It relates to the audit under the Local Government Act of 1888. I understand that some of the auditors consider they ought to audit sums of money which have been paid by Quarter Sessions after the appointed day for current expenditure, which were due under their order, before the County Councils came into existence. Those amounts in some counties reach a very considerable sum, but whether the amount be considerable or not, it will involve considerable trouble on those who have to deal with the accounts. So far as I understand it, there is a clause in the Act which enables Magistrates after the appointed day to pay sums of this sort. The clause which I understand the auditors rely upon seems to me only to refer to mortgages and liabilities of that kind which are handed over to the County Councils; but what will possibly occur is this, that the auditors may insist upon auditing those sums paid by the Quarter Sessions, and, as it appears to me, for no purpose whatever. If every one of those charges should be incorrect the auditor could not surcharge the Magistrate, and ho certainly could not surcharge the County Council. I should like, therefore, to 1214 know from my noble Friend what view the Local Government Board take of this matter. It is a matter which affects a very considerable number of County Councils. I will, therefore, ask my noble Friend whether the auditors appointed under the Local Government Act, 1888, will audit payments made after the appointed day by the Justices of Quarter-Sessions for expenditure incurred before their jurisdiction over county fiscal business ceased?
*THE EARL OF JERSEYThe question which the noble Earl has put to me is one, no doubt, of great importance to County Councils at this moment, and I hope the answer I have to give him will put the matter in a clear and intelligible light. The Local Government Board considers that all payments which were made from the county treasuries after the 1st April, 1889, although they may have been made under orders of justices in Quarter Sessions, are subject to audit by the County District Auditors. Section 64 of the Act of 1888 provides that after the appointed day, that is, the 1st April, 1889, all property and monies belonging to Quarter Sessions of a county shall be vested in the County Councils, and the monies in the hands of the County Treasurer who, up to that time, was an officer of Quarter Sessions, but who after the 1st April, 1889, became an officer of the County Council, therefore became the property of the County Council on that day. From that date the County Treasurer became under Section 118 (13) of the Act an officer of the County Council. As regards audit, it is expressly provided by Section 71 (3) of the Act that the accounts of the County Treasurer shall be subject to audit by the District Auditor appointed by the Local Government Board. If in any case the accounts of the payments which are referred to in the question have not been included in the accounts of the County Councils, it will not be necessary that those accounts should be rewritten. The requirements of the Statute will be regarded by the Local Government Board as satisfied if a supplemental or separate account is furnished in respect of the payments made by the treasurer after the appointed day under orders of Quarter Sessions. No doubt under 1215 Section 106 (7) of the Act the Quarter Sessions are empowered to make after the appointed day orders for the ordinary quarterly payments; but as those payments will be made out of monies which have become vested in the County Council and by the County Treasury who has become an officer of the County Council, it appears to the Local Government Board that these payments, like all other payments made by the County Treasurer after the appointed day, should be included in the accounts submitted for audit. I will add that the Local Government Board, whilst it must insist upon an efficient audit, is anxious to cause as little trouble as possible to County Councils.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYThe noble Earl has not answered that part of my noble Friend's question as to the power of the County Councils, because neither of the bodies appears to be responsible to the auditor.
§ *EARL SPENCERWhat is the use of his auditing if he cannot surcharge anybody?
*THE EARL OF JERSEYIt may be assumed that the accounts are correct, as they have been passed by the Quarter Sessions. It would be inconvenient, however, if sums of money which have been paid by the County Councils under orders of the Quarter Sessions could not be audited, as the payments have been made out of monies of the County Council, whose accounts must, according to Statute, be audited.