HISTORICAL MANUSCRIPTS COMMISSION. (Hansard, 13 May 1890)

EARL BBAUCHAMP
My Lords, in moving that there be laid before this HOUSE a complete list, with dates of issue, of the Reports of the Historical Manuscripts Commission, and of the Appendices thereto; together with an alphabetical index of the collections examined and reported on, giving a reference to the Report and Appendix wherein the result of the examination may be found, I am quite sensible of the audacity of the task I have taken upon myself in venturing to impugn the conduct of so august a body of persons as the Historical Manuscripts Commissioners; but I think that any of your Lordships and any of the public who have attempted to grapple with the publications of that body must have found an insuperable difficulty in the initial task of placing those publications upon their shelves in consecutive order. I suppose few Royal Commissions 806 have ever been appointed which have dealt with matters of so much interest, and no praise is too high to be bestowed upon those noblemen and gentlemen who own valuable historical manuscripts, including the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, for the public spirit which has induced them to place their collections of valuable documents at the disposal of the Historical Manuscripts Commissioners. But I am compelled to say that a great deal of that useful and valuable work which the Commissioners have performed has been rendered, I will not say nugatory, but certainly very inaccessible to those who most desire to profit by it. Anyone who has attempted to discover or to understand the order and publication of the Reports, or their dates of issue, or to know which Reports and Appendices have been published, and what there is that has not been published, will have found himself entangled in a labyrinth, from which I am sure he has found it difficult, if not impossible, to extricate himself. Those manuscripts which have been dealt with by the Commissioners are of very great value indeed, and I regret that they have not thought fit to adopt the ordinary course which is followed by those have to deal with and superintend publications of this description, of providing a table of contents, which should be available to those who desire to study the volumes. I am not asking your Lordships for a direction that there shall be supplied a general index of the Reports and Appendices, for. of course, that would be a very large matter, and one into which I do not presume to enter now. All I ask is that we should have placed before us in a clear and concise way, a list of the publications of the Commission, in order that we may know what has been published and what has not been published, and that we may be able to lay our hands upon such information as we may seek. An eminent authority of your Lordships' House once said that knowledge of the means for reference was really the knowledge itself, and I believe he was taken somewhat severely to task for that aphorism: but I must express my own opinion that he was perfectly right. A great deal of our knowledge must be potential, that is to say, you cannot carry the entire details of it in your 807 mind; but, to be in the position to make use of it, you must be able to go to the place or lay your hand upon the book where the necessary information is to be obtained. When reference is possible our knowledge is very much increased and enlarged, or, at all events, made more available, which tends to the same result. My Lords, the Commission is composed of noblemen and gentlemen of the highest possible attainments, and I think it is to be regretted that they have not paid some attention to the work I have referred to, for it would, I am sure, have saved those who are engaged in antiquarian and historical researches great waste of time, and I have also not the least doubt that the public convenience will be facilitated if your Lordships will grant this Return. When once granted, I hope it will be appended to every publication that may come out, either upon the wrapper or otherwise. It is really very inconvenient not to be able to ascertain thy order of these various publications. Within the last few weeks a great part of the Cecil Manuscripts have been published, but there is no indication as to what Report they arc connected with. Whether it is one of the Appendices to the 11th or 12th Report, or whether it is an excrescence or a mere casual volume, there is not the least clue; and though that alone is a trifling matter, I think your Lordships will agree that when you wish to arrange on your shelves works of so valuable a character, it is very inconvenient to be vexed and thwarted by mere neglect on the part of those who have to superintend such matters. It would be of great public convenience, I am sure, if this Return were granted.

§ *EARL STANHOPE
I should like to say a few words in reference to what has fallen from my noble relative. I have collected these volumes since the starting of the Commission, that is to say, I have now 12 volumes, and I have the greatest difficulty in finding out what are the dates of their publication, or in what order they proceed. It is difficult to know from the title page at the top of each volume what manuscripts are reported upon. Lately, also, the size of the volumes has been diminished; from being, as formerly, folio volumes, they have now become octavo, and the collec- 808 tion, therefore, does not look uniform, or as important as it should from its nature and character. I quite endorse everything that has fallen from my noble relative in reference to the valuable character of these Reports, which, I have no doubt, many of your Lordships possess; but I think their value would be much enhanced if such a Return as he has moved for were granted.

§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)
My Lords, I am a very humble member of the Commission to whose labours the noble Lords have referred, but by special desire of the Commission I, like most of the other Commissioners, never attend. The Commission prefers to work principally in the absence of most of its members, and it works, I imagine, much better in consequence of their non-attendance. But there is one active member who, I regret to see, is not present in the House, the Master of the Rolls; and I think he is the only person who can give my noble Friend that information or those assurances which he demands. Of course, there is no objection to the Return being given; but I do not imagine that even the Master of the Rolls could, without consultation with the proper authorities, give my noble Friend information as to the mode in which the publications could be amended. I quite sympathise with him as to the advantage of being able to find one's way among the volumes, for I have invariably lost it when I have made the attempt.

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
Of course I do not wish in the least to interfere with the contents; I only desire that there should be given on the wrappers, or elsewhere, some proper indication of the contents.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
I am told that it would be better if the terms of the notice were altered, and perhaps my noble Friend would not mind putting it off for a few days for that purpose.

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
I must really object to that. I wrote to the Master of the Rolls on the subject, and I have had no communication from him. Unless I know what the objections are I do not understand why the matter should be postponed.

§ EARL CADOGAN
Perhaps I may be allowed to say that just before entering the House I met the Master of the Rolls. He told me he was exceedingly sorry that he was obliged to be away, and he gave me charge of a message for my noble Friend.

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
I do not under, stand what the objections are, and I think there must be some misconception in the matter I have heard some suggestion that the words which I propose are intended to cover the supply of a general index to the contents of the volumes. but nothing is further from my intention. All I ask for is a complete list, with dates and issue of the Reports of the Historical Manuscripts Commission, and of the Appendices thereto, together with an alphabetical index of the collections examined and reported on. Your Lordships know that in each volume several collections are reported upon, of which no trace is to be found, though sometimes on the title page there is given some reference by which, in the result, a particular collection reported on may be found. I am quite satisfied that no printer of any reputation would allow such work to issue from his establishment without some means of reference, such as I am asking for. I do not understand what the objections are, and without an explanation I cannot withdraw my Motion.

§ *LORD DE RAMSEY
In answer to my noble Friend, perhaps I may state a little more fully what the Prime Minister has already said, that there is no objection whatever to grant this Return up to a certain extent. The noble Marquess is perfectly right in saying that the terms of the Notice would require to be altered, because what appears in the Motion is what the noble Earl, as I understand, does not ask for, that is a general index, If that is so, all I have to say, on behalf of the Home Office, is that there is no objection whatever to give the Return for which the noble Earl asks; that is, a complete list with the dates of issue of the Reports, an alphabetical list of the collections examined, and an alphabetical list of the owners of such collections. That can easily be supplied, if that meets with the noble Earl's wishes.

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
I do not ask for an alphabetical list of the owners of manuscripts; I only ask for what is in the Notice.

§ *LORD DE RAMSEY
That can be supplied at the same time. I think the line can be drawn at a general index, which would be extremely expensive and cause a great deal of trouble. There is no objection whatever, therefore, to grant the Return which the noble Earl asks for.