LIGHT RAILWAYS (IRELAND) ACT, 1889. (Hansard, 28 March 1890)

§ *THE EARL OF LEITRIM
My Lords, before proceeding with my Motion, I should desire to give notice that as soon as possible after Easter I will introduce a Bill to amend the Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1889. With regard to the application of the Light Railways' Act to Ireland generally, I need make no explanatory statement as to my reasons for bringing forward this Motion. As far as it applies locally, and as far as my Motion applies to the Grand Jury of the County of Donegal, I should like to state what steps I have taken before introducing this Motion to your Lordships. I have given private notice to the foreman of the Grand Jury, to the mover of the resolution of the Grand Jury, with reference to the Letterkenny and Dunfanaghy Line, to the Duke of Abercorn, who was foreman of the Grand Jury of Donegal for many years; I have put notices in the county papers, and I convened a meeting in the district to which the second part of my Motion refers in the County of Donegal, through which the Letterkenny and Dunfanaghy Line would run. I have circulated among your Lordships a 144 report of what took place at that meeting and it should be in your hands. I know it was in the hands of many of your Lordships this morning. I desire, as far as possible, to deal with general principles, and also to avoid, as far as possible, all names of individuals or of places. My Lords, taxation without representation stinks in the nostrils of taxpayers of the United Kingdom; but in the case of the Tramways of Ireland Act, the pill was gilded with the grant of £1,250,000 from the Treasury, and it was shipped to Ireland as a remedy for the congested districts. I should like, before I pass on, to say something about the definitions which have been given of what are called "congested districts." I have never seen any intelligible definition of what a congested district is. The Commissioners under the Tramways Act asked some of the witnesses what their idea of a congested district was, and one witness would say that it was— A district in which there were a great number of people; another gentleman would say that— The number of acres to the unit of population might represent what would be a congested district. But when tested, I find that that definition does not work at all; on the contrary, it gives exactly the inverse ratio: that is to say, that in these congested districts large areas exist per unit of population, but the land is worth nothing. It may be worth 6d. or 1s., sometimes nothing an acre, for it is nothing but stones and rocks. Therefore, that will not work. Another gentleman, the foreman of the Grand Jury, seems to have endeavoured to define a congested district by a negative process. He says— We have the most civilised district in the county, and we are seven miles from the nearest railway, and no chance of getting any nearer. A civilised district appears to be his idea of what is not a congested district. The writer of a letter to a newspaper from the Parish of Rossgull takes the trouble to answer that definition, and he says that it would be curious and interesting to know by what criterion this gentleman judges the different degrees of civilisation. Do they, in his 145 district, all use tooth-brushes, or do they wipe their noses with pocket-handkerchiefs, or have they reached that stage which a writer of note says is characteristic of the highest culture—"Do they take jam with their mutton?" I do not think, my Lords, that one will work any way. But I will endeavour to give you my idea of a congested district. My definition of a congested district is this: that the degree to which a district is congested may be estimated by the proportion that the population of a given area bears to the valuation of that area in pounds sterling. I have tested it, and I should like to give a few examples to illustrate it in the County of Donegal. I have taken the parish as my area. Of course, you can apply it to electoral divisions; you can apply it to a Petty Session district, or a Union, or any other district you choose; I have taken the parish. Now, the most congested district in the County of Donegal is what is called the Rosses, that is to say, the parish of Templecroome, and the population there is just three and a half times the valuation. The next are the parishes of Lettermacward and Tullahobegley, and there the population is two and a half times the valuation; and so it goes on until you get down to the valuation and population on a par, when it goes on until the valuation exceeds the population, and there we find a healthy and prosperous state of things. Now, my Lords, coining to the working of the Tramways Act; the defect in the Act, as far as I have been able to lay my finger upon it, seems to be that the congested districts must in every case make themselves responsible for the whole of the working expenses of these lines. I desire to point out to your Lordships the very serious and grave danger that I foresee, and that is that in certain cases this pill will leave such a nauseous after-taste that the patient will vomit. In other words, the congested district will turn upon the political physician, who will have produced an excretion which will have germinated into a white elephant, the burden of the working expenses will be greaterthan the relief to the taxpayers. The next defect that I would refer to in the working of the Act is this, as I understand it: The Board of Works have decided that no new lines should be 146 scheduled for the Summer Assizes. That, in my opinion, would be a very wise policy; but I differ with the Board as to what may be considered new lines of railway. I hold that where the Board of Works have provisionally allocated a certain sum to reach a certain objective point, adeviation or entirely new method of reaching that objective point should not be considered a new line, but should be investigated between this and the Summer Assizes, and have its merits weighed against any alternative route that may have been scheduled. Let me illustrate this. Point Z is your objective point in a congested district, and P is a terminus of an existing line. A sum of, say, £200,000 has been provisionally allocated for a line from P to Z. But it is now discovered that A is really your base, and that a line from A through P to Z, your objective point that is to say, from your base to your objective point—would be 10miles longer, and therefore at £5,000permilewould cost £50,000 more than a line from A, your base, through a point Q, to Z. That is to say, line A P Z would be 10 miles longer than A Q Z; and supposing you can show that there are existing communications from A to Q, as well as from A to P, why not make this line, which is 10 miles shorter, and connect with existing communications from A. to Q? Why not make this bit of line from Q to Z? Supposing, also, that that line would better open up the congested districts; supposing that that shorter line was supported by a large and representative body of the ratepayers, I ask would it be wise, would it be businesslike, would it be politic, to treat such a line as a new line and refuse to schedule it? I do pray the Government not to allow such red-tape notions to prevail. Other advantages may also be derived from the shorter line—there would be reduction in working expenses, and reduction in the rates per mile; there may be even lower rates from A to Q than there are from A to P. All those considerations may, I say, if such a line were scheduled, be then taken into consideration by the Commissioners and be duly weighed, and thus you will got the best value for your money, or whatever part of the £1,250,000 you are granting from the Treasury. There might be a further advantage in this shorter line. £200,000 147 was the sum which I stated might be the full amount required to construct the line; £50,000 would be saved by the 10 miles at £5,000 a mile, and if that £50,000 were placed to a reserve fund for that line it might be applied to meet one of the very great defects of the working of this Tramways Bill, that is to say, it might be applied towards defraying the deficit in the working expenses. A short one-clause amending Bill might be necessary, but see what you would save! You would save a considerable amount of taxation upon a congested district which already is struggling to live. Those are the remarks I desire to make to your Lordships as far as the Act may be applicable to the whole of Ireland. In regard to the latter part of my Motion, I desire to call attention particularly to the resolution of the Grand Jury of the County of Donegal, with reference to the Letterkenny and Dunfanaghy line. I should like to read to the House the resolution of the Grand Jury, or that part of it, at all events, which says— And owing to the ratepayers and the Grand Jury unanimously condemning the deviation recommended by the Board of Works, and so on. Now, to state that thousands and thousands of ratepayers were unanimous seems to me absurd on the face of it; but was that statement warranted by facts? The mover of the resolution was a land agent on the Grand Jury; and at the time he framed the resolution he had in his possession a letter from one of the largest cesspayers in the district, which said this— I do not think the lines proposed interest Milford or Mulroy at all; nobody in these parts cares in the least which of the proposed routes is adopted. Of course, if taxation is proposed on these districts they will he very much interested, and I think you will find they will he to a man against either route. That letter was in the possession of the mover of the resolution, which says that the ratepayers were in favour of the route that was condemned in that letter, and the writer of that letter, I think, made good his case, for at the public meeting which I have already referred to, this resolution was adopted— That this meeting regrets that the Grand Jury should have resolved that the ratepayers are unanimous in condemning the deviation recommended by the Board of Works. That, believing this meeting to be representative of 148 £20,000 of the £48,000 proposed to be taxed in the barony of Kilmacrenan, we desire to support the Commissioners of the Board of Works in their deviation from Creeslough viâ Carrigart to Milford, and we protest against the Grand Jury resolving that the Letterkenny and Gweedore scheme met with the approval of the ratepayers proposed to be taxed. Now, my Lords, that meeting was a public meeting, and was in every way representative. Land-owners, priests, parsons, ministers, doctors and the masses, were all represented there, and what took place has been fully reported in the county papers. I have circulated it to your Lordships this morning. Three other resolutions were passed, but I will only trouble the House with one more. One was praying the Government to send Commissioners to hold an inquiry in Milford, so that the cesspayers in these districts may have the same opportunity of expressing their opinions as has been granted to Letterkenny, Dunfanaghy, Bunbeg, places all on one side of the barony. Another resolution was praying that the line which I have sketched by the letters A Q Z should be scheduled and inquired into on its merits. Now, my Lords, I would only make further one or two short references to the Grand Jury, and I desire to do so with every courtesy that I can. In the first place, the Grand Jury was summoned by the High Sheriff, who was a promoter of the line that was disapproved of by the Commissioners, and which the Grand Jury appear to have adopted. I do not think the High Sheriff should have acted as a promoter; but I believe that it was an unintentional blunder. I do not wish to imply that he packed the jury in any way, I merely mention it as a fact. The mover of the resolution was also a promoter of a line opposing the Commissioners' line; and in promoting his line he used, as he had a perfect right to do, every technical means that his skill could devise to impede the advantages of this Act in the district in which this great meeting which I have spoken of was held. In taking that course he was endeavouring to secure his own interests and the interests of his neighbourhood as he had a perfect right to do; but when he carried his promoters' tactics into the Grand Jury, I think he committed a very grave and serious error of judgment; and I would ask your Lordships, who are 149 familiar with the practice of magistrates, whether we have not got precedents against such a course? Take the Bench, or take first of all your own Parliamentary Committees. I apprehend that the Grand Jury is, as nearly as possible, analagous in the work it has to preform on this occasion to your Parliamentary Committees. Would it be allowed for a moment that a Peer or Member of the other House should be deeply interested in promoting a line, and yet should be sitting upon one of your Parliamentary Committees? I apprehend not, my Lords. Parliament has, to a certain extent, lost control over the working of this Light Railways Act by committing it to the Grand Jury. We have no control over the Grand Jury, and I am not aware that there is any Executive control in any way over the Grand Jury. The Grand Jury which acted in this case is, so to speak, dead. The matter will possibly be dealt with again by the same Grand Jury, but not necessarily so, at the Summer Assizes. Therefore it is, my Lords, that I have endeavoured to influence the great voice of public opinion in this matter, so that it shall not be possible for a promoter to act in the face of public opinion as a judge in his own cause. I fear the Grand Jury have not risen to the occasion. Parliament has confided to them a great responsibility, and I trust that some good may come at the Summer Assizes from this Motion. Before I sit down I should like to say that I think the Government should exercise the greatest supervision that is possible over the administration of this, as I believe, great healing measure. My desire is that it should reach not merely the homes, but that it should reach the hearts of the people in the congested districts. I desire to move that the Report and the Evidence taken before the Commissioners be laid upon the Table.

§ EARL CADOGAN
My Lords, I think the House will hardly wish me to follow my noble Friend into all the subjects upon which he has touched in his, if he 150 will forgive me for saying so, discursive speech. I think it would hardly assist us in arriving at a conclusion upon the question he has raised if I were to discuss with him what is the real meaning of the term "congested districts." No doubt that is a matter which it is somewhat difficult to explain to the satisfaction of all; and, as I understand, he merely alluded to the congested districts, because he considered that the Light Railways Act of the Government, was intended, to some extent at all events, to benefit those districts. Therefore, I do not think I need allude any further to that matter. But, my Lords, the noble Earl made some general remarks upon the working of the Light Railways Act, and he came after a time to the discussion of the particular case to which I think he intended in the main to direct the attention of the House.

§ *THE EARL OF LEITRIM
No; to its working.

§ EARL CADOGAN
The noble Earl gave as an instance certain railways, the points of which he defined by letters of the alphabet, and in a later portion of his speech he reminded us that those letters of the alphabet which he had previously named stood in reality for two places which he has named in the notice of his question. Therefore, I thought I was justified in imagining that the real object of my noble Friend was to call attention to the particular railway in which I believe he has an interest. He has called attention specially to the constitution of the Grand Jury, whose duty it was to decide upon the railway which is mentioned in the notice paper, and he referred to one of the members of that Grand Jury, who was personally, to a large extent, as I understood, interested in the alternative line which at that time was discussed; and he told us that, in his opinion, it was exceedingly improper that a man should in such an inquiry as that be a judge in his own cause, and should be called upon to decide a question in which he had a large pecuniary interest. I believe that is the argument really of my noble Friend. I cannot, of course, for one moment differ from my noble Friend's view in that matter; but I think be will admit it is not one in which Her Majesty's Government are competent to interfere. Nobody knows better than my noble Friend that the Government 151 have nothing to do with the striking of Grand Jury. There is no power even of challenging members of a Grand Jury; and it is impossible for the Government, in the review which they must ultimately make of these proceedings, to take into account the personal predilections or circumstances of any persons who serve upon the Grand Jury. Therefore, I am afraid to that extent I cannot offer my noble Friend any satisfaction. But I think perhaps the House will allow me, as the noble Earl has alluded to the general working of the Act, to state, in a few words, for the benefit of those who may not understand the matter as well as my noble Friend does, what has been the course adopted in deciding upon the various lines which are to be carried out under the Act. The several schemes which have been brought to the attention of the Government were sent to the Commissioners of Public Works on the 2nd September, and further Memorials were forwarded to the Commissioners as they were received. A notice was issued on the 25th October calling upon persons interested in any lines who had not already submitted Memorials or Statements to send them in before November 1. A list of lines to be scheduled was subsequently made out and embodied in an Order in Council passed on November 1. Immediately on receipt of the plans from the promoters of the several schemes the Board of Works summoned the several persons selected to make the public inquiries to a conference, when the most minute and detailed instructions were given to them as to the manner in which they should conduct their inquiries, and the nature of the Report to be furnished thereon. On January 6 formal appointments were issued to the several Inspectors to hold the inquiries, as set forth in an advertisement notice, which was published in the Local as well as in the Metropolitan papers, and all the plans and other documentary information furnished by the promoters, in accordance with instructions, were transmitted to the several Inspectors, with a request that their Report should be handed in not later than February 17, in order to enable the Board to complete their communications with the Treasury, and have the cases laid before the Grand Juries of the several counties concerned at the approaching Spring Assizes. They 152 were also furnished with special maps showing the baronies and electoral divisions of the scheduled districts, and the fishery piers and harbours therein, together with statistics of population, taxation, and other matters bearing upon the subject of their inquiries. The last of the public inquiries, which were of a most exhaustive character, was closed on February 3. The Board of Works subsequently communicated to the promoters the result of the inquiries. But they have not yet furnished a General Report to the Government, who are, therefore, not yet in a position to come to a final decision in the matter. Therefore, I think my noble friend will see that inasmuch as the Government have not yet received the General Report, it is impossible for them to deal piecemeal with one Report at a time from the different districts. It is quite obvious that if my noble Friend succeeded in inducing the Government to discuss with him this particular proposal with regard to his district, other noble Lords who are interested in other parts of Ireland will feel themselves entitled to call in question the decisions of the Grand juries throughout the country. I think the noble Lord will see that it is impossible for the Government to encourage that method of procedure. He has also told us that there were no possible means of revision or control over the proceedings of the Grand Jury. I think in that he was inaccurate.

§ *THE EARL OF LEITRIM
No; the noble Earl is referring, I suppose, to the Treasury?

EARL CABOGAN
At all events, if what is done does not meet with the approval of the Lord President in Council there is further power given in that respect. Under those circumstances, I hope my noble Friend will not be dissatisfied when I say that we are unable to lay this particular Report to which he alludes, with the evidence relating to it, on the Table of the House; but I can assure him that as soon as the Government have received the Reports from all the various districts, information relative to them all will be laid before Parliament.

§ *THE EARL OF LEITRIM
My Lords, the statement of the noble Earl is entirely satisfactory to me. It is just what I desired. I may say that the concluding 153 part of the Motion was really formal in order to afford me an opportunity of speaking in reply. My speech was directed, perhaps, quite as much outside this House as to Her Majesty's Government, and I will not trouble your Lordships, therefore, with any further remarks.