HL Deb 24 March 1890 vol 342 cc1617-42
* EARL PERCY

, in rising to call attention to the means to be adopted for providing equipments for the Volunteer Force, said: My Lords, perhaps I ought to offer some apology to your Lordships for bringing forward a matter which has been lately the subject of debate m the Lower House of Parliament, but I do so for two reasons: In the first place, it appears that the Motion which was brought forward in another place embodied within it two things which appear to be entirely different and distinct: one was as to the debt which had been incurred by Volunteer Corps in past years, and the other was as to the demands which have lately been made upon those corps by the Regulations of the War Office. Now, I have nothing to say with regard to the debts which have been incurred by Volunteer Corps in times past. They have been incurred for various purposes. In some cases, no doubt, they had been incurred for purposes which were absolutely essential to the efficiency of the force, and they have no doubt been undertaken in some cases with the greatest regard to economy and to all prudent considerations; but in others it is said, though I do not sneak from my own knowledge on this point, that they have been incurred not for matters which were absolutely necessary, but for the convenience of the officers and other members of the corps, and upon rather an extravagant scale. If this be so, I confess it seems to mo it would be extremely difficult for the Government to discriminate between the two cases; and, at any rate, it may be said that the corps have incurred those expenses with their eyes open; that they knew what they were doing, and that they have small claim to be relieved from the liabilities they have so incurred. However that may be, I do not wish to press this point upon your Lordships' attention to-night; but what I do wish to press upon the notice of this House and especially upon that of the Government is the position in which the Volunteers are placed by the regulations with regard to equipment. The decision which was arrived at in the other House of Parliament is supposed outside, rightly or wrongly, to have been in some degree influenced by Party considerations. Whether that be so or not it is not for me to say, but it is an additional reason for my bringing the subject forward here to-night, because I think it will be very much to be deplored if a decision with regard to the maintenance of the National Forces of this country should be even suspected of being arrived at upon Party grounds and for Party considerations. My Lords, the War Office Circular, issued on the 27th of May last, mentioned two classes of equipment which, it was held, was absolutely necessary to render the Volunteers capable of taking the field in times of emergency. With regard to the second of these two classes, the War Office is prepared to pay to each Volunteer Corps £2 2s. per man on mobilisation; but with regard to the first class, it is expected that the Volunteers shall obtain the whole of this equipment without the slightest aid from the public funds. I do not clearly understand whether this sum of £2 2s. is in any degree to recoup the corps for the expenditure which they are now asked to incur: but as the money, which must be obtained for the equipment now required, is to he furnished from private sources, and as the £2 2s. is to come to the corps at some very indefinite period of mobilisation, it is difficult to see how it is possible for the Volunteers to recoup themselves out of it in any way. Therefore, it must be understood that the equipment, which is now demanded of the Volunteers, is to be supplied entirely from their own resources, or from, those of private persons. And in a subsequent clause of this Circular the corps are told that if this equipment be not obtained within a certain time the grant, which has hitherto been given for efficiency, will be withdrawn. Now, my Lords, I hold that this proceeding is wrong in principle and entirely unprecedented. I do not believe that there is any precedent for asking for the supply of the necessary means for conducting the Public Service out of private funds. I am aware, indeed, that when the Volunteer Force was first raised, when the system was still a tentative one, that the necessary funds to maintain them were sought for to a large extent from private sources; but from the time that the Volunteers became a recognised portion of the Forces of the Crown, the claim has never been disallowed that it was the duty of the Government to supply the means for rendering them efficient in every respect. The Volunteers give their time and services voluntarily; and the well-understood bargain with the country was, that as those services were given voluntarily, the country would, in return, undertake the charge which was necessary for making those services available. I think there can be no doubt about that, if we look at the Report of the War Office Committee which sat upon this question in the year 1887. There is not in that Report one single sentence to show that, in the opinion of that Committee, there were any grounds for this country shirking the responsibilities which it has been hitherto understood they have adopted. I observe that it has been said, on behalf of the Government, in another place, that the increased Grant for efficiency which was given a short time ago was given for the purpose of supplying the equipment which is now demanded, or a part of it at any rate. I can see nothing leading to that conclusion in the Report of the Committee, which recommended this increased Grant for efficiency. The words of that Report are these— Taking as a model a regiment with eight companies of SO men each, we consider the necessary charges for which no special allowances are made, and which, therefore, have to he defrayed from the Capitation Grant, will amount to about £1,108; the total Efficiency Grant which the Corps might earn would only he £960; a deficiency of £148 per corps may, therefore, be presumed to exist at present, and we consider, on the whole, that good grounds exist for a Deficiency Grant of 5s. That shows, my Lords, clearly that this increased Grant was for the purpose of meeting charges which the Volunteers were then liable for, and not for meeting charges which the Government or the War Office might propose at some future day to lay upon them. The Report then goes on to say that as far as Artillery Corps are concerned they are in a still worse position than Infantry regiments, and that it would be advisable to give them the same Grant under even more favourable conditions. It is perfectly true that since then an issue of 2s. per man has been given in order that Volunteer corps might provide themselves with great coats; but a great coat varies in price according to the corps—on the average a greatcoat costs 20s.; and the whole assistance, as I understand it, which the Volunteers receive from the War Office in order to supply them with great coats is an assistance which will, in 10 years' time, enable those great coats to be obtained. There is one part of this subject as to which I confess myself quite unable to follow the calculations of the Government. I see it was stated on their behalf in the House of Commons the other day that 3s. 6d. would cover the whole cost of the equipment which was demanded by them immediately with the exception of the great coat. Now, the equipment which is demanded by them immediately is a pouch, haversack, waterbottle, and mess tin. I have not been able to ascertain exactly the cost of the pouch; but pouch and belts will cost 11s. However, I presume that is not what is required by the Government, for the cost of a haversack is 10½d., of a water bottle 1s. 6d., and of a mess tin Is. Therefore, it follows that the pouch, in the opinion of the War Office, is to be provided at the cost of 1½d. Without being' able to say positively what the amount is, I think I may safely assert that 1½d. will not meet it. But if Lord Harris's Committee of 1887, to which I have alluded, thought that 4s. 7d. per man was a charge which ought not to be put on Volunteer Corps, and recommended that 5s. should be granted in addition to meet it, surely it is not to be wondered at if an additional cost of even 3s. 6s. per man suddenly thrown by the Government on them should be thought a hardship. It is considered by the Volunteers, and I think quite rightly, that this is a great breach of faith with them. The compact—perhaps not a written, but a well-understood compact between the Volunteers and the country—was, as I have already said, that if they rendered their services voluntarily, and gave up their time and energies to fitting themselves to perform their duties, the Government on its part would supply them free of cost with the means of maintaining that efficiency. But they still further feel themselves aggrieved by the tone of the last clause to which I have alluded in the Circular of the 27th May last. It was surely scarcely necessary, in addition to putting this charge upon the Volunteers, to hold out a, threat that the Efficiency Grant would be withhold under certain circumstances, which is tantamount to the corps being disbanded. I think it was hardly desirable to tell the Volunteers that unless they met this additional claim which was made by the Government their services would be dispensed with altogether. It has been the custom to sing the praises of the Volunteers at inspections, at reviews, at public dinners, and in various quarters. Those praises have been sung not only by ordinary Members of Parliament, but by high officials, both in the Army and in the State. Perhaps they have sometimes verged upon the limits of hyperbole; perhaps it was thought right that Government should restrain the tendency which may have existed to over-rate the services of the Volunteers. Perhaps it was right that Her Majesty's Government should dissemble their love; but was it quite necessary, I would humbly submit, to give so very severe a kick downstairs to the object of their affections? I think, my Lords, that was a very unfortunate letter; but the strong-point which I would urge is that the demand is, in its essence and on principle, one which ought not to be made. What is the position of the Volunteers at the present moment? It is, perhaps, unfortunate that a general protest against the proceedings of Her Majesty's Government was not made at the time. It is now nearly a year since this Circular was issued, and although I believe then; was a protest then made no very overt expression of opinion has been made since. We cannot regret that the patriotism of the country and of the Volunteers themselves in the first instance prompted them to see how far they could meet the demands which were made upon them, though they thought those demands were unreasonable. There can be no doubt about this: that whatever efforts have been made the sum necessary for this purpose has not been raised, and in the vast majority of eases there is very little prospect that it will be. A great deal of caution should be used with regard to the reports which we hear on this subject. I was told myself that in several boroughs, the sum required, or something like it, had been raised. I am not able at present to give any statistics upon the point; but I know that in one or two instances in which I have made inquiry I have found these reports to be totally unfounded. In one particular case of a large borough I was told that the necessary funds had been raised, and raised easily and promptly. This was a very large borough, and one where I should have thought trade was good and prosperous. I wrote to one of the Commanding Officers there to know what was really the state of the case, and he informed me that, so far from the necessary sum being raised, there was a very large amount of it still wanting; and he added, somewhat gloomily, "I shall probably have—as I have often had to do before—to meet it out of my own pocket." Now not only has this sum not been raised, but the opportunities which Volunteer Corps have of raising it vary very much. There are some boroughs, and even, perhaps, some counties, which happen, from various causes, to be more wealthy than others. They may sometimes be the very places where the number of Volunteers is small. In other cases you may have a county or a borough in which there is a very large number of Volunteers, and where the means of providing them with money is not large. It is, I think, a most unfair demand; it puts these different corps in a most invidious position, that they should, in the first place, not only have to provide these equipments sometimes, and in other cases not possess them for want of means, but that they should be liable to this tremendous penalty, which is totally independent of their making themselves efficient in the sense in which it is generally understood, that if they do not do what is required now of them by the Government, they will be disbanded. Even where this objection is not put forward on the ground that the money is not easily obtainable, I know that this demand is felt to be wrong on the ground of principle. I know one case in which the strongest objection has been made on principle to it, not from any wish to close private purse strings, but on the ground that the cost of performing public duties should be defrayed out of public funds. There have been instances where the strongest objection has been made to giving a shilling in answer to the demands of the Government, and I am not altogether surprised at that being the case when I see the language which is sometimes used on behalf of the Government with regard to this subject. I was struck by the following statement, which I understand was made on their behalf the other day: "If a balance were to be struck between what the public had done and what the Government had done, the speaker thought that the Government might take this opportunity of putting forward what had been done towards making the Volunteer Corps efficient" But, my Lords, this is the first time that I ever heard of a national force being maintained upon a balance struck between the public and the Government. Is it to be understood that we are enter- ing upon a new epoch in which the public requirements, either local or Imperial, are to be met partly voluntarily and partly by the Government? If this principle that when you wish to make a public force efficient you are to supply the means for doing so partly out of the taxation of the country and partly out of public contributions is to hold good: contributions, mind you, not given voluntarily, but demanded as a kind of benevolence from the people, then I should like to know where we are to stop? Why should not the same demand be made for the Army or the Navy? Why, if you wish for an increase in the Police Force in a County, or if you want greatcoats or other clothing for the Police Force in a Borough, should not the Local Authorities have a right to say that they would not supply them unless the public came forward and assisted I Still less ought they to be allowed to add, as a threat, that if the public did not come forward half of that Police Force would be dismissed. I cannot help thinking that this demand has in it the small beginning of a very dangerous experiment, and that it is necessary we should make a protest against it. It is, no doubt, disagreeable for the Volunteers to have to come forward in formâ pauperis, after all the time and trouble they have bestowed, and all the money which many of them have expended (and remember, my Lords, that the War Office Committee mentioned the large sums which many Volunteer Officers have spent) I think it is hard that, after all the Volunteers have done in this way, they should have to come forward in formâ pauperis, and beg for assistance to provide their equipment, in order to enable them to avoid this terrible consequence of disbandment which is held over them. But they will feel, I trust, that this is put upon them through no fault of their own. I do not doubt that if the Government still hold the view that this regulation ought to be maintained, the Volunteers will have no hesitation in meeting the demand, and that others will be ready to help them. I do think it is a most unfortunate course which the Government has entered upon, and I trust they still may give us some hope that they will recede from it. My Lords, I have brought forward this question in no contentious spirit. I have put no definite Motion down upon the Notice Paper, because my object is not so much to ask the opinion of this House upon the question, although I trust some noble Lord will be found willing to add anything which I may have omitted on the subject in the remarks I have made. I have brought forward the matter in the hope that the case having been brought before their notice in the other House of Parliament, and in view of the feeling of the country, which is undoubtedly well-known to them, Her Majesty's Government will give us some hope that they will reconsider the decision at which they have arrived, and retire from a position which I believe is really untenable, and which places the Volunteers at so great a disadvantage.

* THE MARQUESS OF RIPON

My Lords, having had some personal experience of this matter during the last few months in my position as a Lord Lieutenant, I trust your Lordships will allow mo to say a few words on the subject. I cannot say tint I agree with the principles and theory which have been had down by the noble Earl who has just sat down, although I am brought reluctantly, I must acknowledge, by my experience, to the same conclusion as that at which he has arrived, namely, that there is no alternative, if these equipments are to be provided, as I think they ought unquestionably to be provided for the Volunteers, but to provide them out of the public funds. I must say I have never been able to feel that Her Majesty's Government were wrong in making their appeal in the first instance to the Volunteers themselves, or rather I should say to their supporters and friends in the country. I think the noble Earl is quite wrong in the view which he takes of the principles upon which this force was originally established. My recollection carries me back very well to that time. I was then connected with the War Office, so that I know the facts as they then stood, and for the noble Earl to say that the Volunteer Pores, when it was originally established, was not a portion of the regular Forces of the Crown is really quite a mistake. There was some doubt at first as to the extent to which the movement might go, but the moment that it was perceived that the movement was taking the very large extension which it did within a very short time, the Volunteer Force became completely a portion of the Forces of the Crown, and as we all know, at that time there was no idea of giving to them any portion of public money or any equipment except rifles and ammunition, and after a short time drill sergeants Therefore, really, the noble Earl ought not to charge his noble Friends below him with any breach of faith in this matter. There has never, so far as I know, been any such understanding between the Government and the Volunteers as that to which the noble Earl points and, therefore, I must certainly acquit Her Majesty's Government of having broken faith with them in the smallest degree. I quite admit at once that, except possibly in Loudon, of which I do not now speak with any special knowledge, it would be quite impossible for the Volunteer Corps, out of the Government grant, or out of the resources of the officers, or members of the Corps, to supply the funds necessary for this purpose. If Her Majesty's Government expect that to be done, then I think they have gone upon a mistaken idea. I agree with the noble Earl that the grant at present made is not sufficient to meet this charge; and I am quite sure of this, that members of Volunteer Corps, and especially the officers, have thrown upon them now quite as heavy money charges as they can possibly be expected to incur. The Volunteers give the country their time, and they give, in most cases, a good deal more—a considerable portion of their money. My Lords, there are, however, men in the country who might easily come forward and help in this matter. What is wanted is the supply of these articles once for all. In the earlier days of the Volunteer movement there were not merely among the officers, but in the ranks, a large number of wealthy men. That is much less the case now. Naturally, perhaps, men of that kind, when the excitement has passed away, have very much withdrawn from active service in the Volunteer Force; but I do think that that same class of men who came forward very readily at the beginning of the movement might again come forward and help in this matter, and supply for the Volunteers, in the first instance, this equipment, which is in the nature of an expenditure of capital, which Her Majesty's Government now ask for. That the Government are right in requiring that the Volunteers should have this equipment as necessary for their efficiency I suppose no one entertains any doubt? But, my Lords, the fact of the matter is, according to my experience of it, that the views which have been put forward to-night by the noble Earl are so widespread in the country that you will not get this money out of the public. I have done my best in the North Riding of Yorkshire, of which I am Lord Lieutenant, to obtain this money. I have issued circulars, called meetings, and appointed Committees. The sum wanted was between £4,000 and £5,000, and up to the present time I have been able to obtain very little more than £1,000. I am very certain that after the conclusion to which the House of Commons came the other night I have no chance, nor has anybody else any chance, whatever of getting any more money out of the public. I am therefore forced, from my own experience, to come to the same conclusion as the noble Lord, and to assure Her Majesty's Government that I do not believe they will find it possible to obtain this equipment from private sources in the country. They may, no doubt, do it here and there. I have myself taken part in a movement which has been somewhat more successful than that of which I have been speaking, in regard to the single battalion of which I am Honorary Colonel, but even there we have not got all the money wanted. I am quite certain that in the rural districts, unless the state of things is very different elsewhere from that existing in the part of the country which I have had to do with, there is very little chance of this money being provided by public subscriptions of any kind. But this equipment is very necessary; the Volunteers ought to have it, and I do therefore venture to join in the appeal made by the noble Earl not as a matter of principle, but upon purely practical grounds, and to press upon Her Majesty's Government the necessity of accepting the defeat which befel them in the other House, and of providing this equipment from taxation out of the funds at their disposal. I am not here to defend the latter part of the Circular of the Adjutant General, and I do not think the language there employed was calculated to help myself and others who have been engaged in doing what we could to forward the policy of Her Majesty's Government in this respect. However, we have failed, and I therefore again beg to press upon Her Majesty's Government that if this thing is to be done, as I think it ought to be done, it must be done out of public funds.

* VISCOUNT BURY

My Lords, as I have had the honour of being connected with the Volunteer Force almost from its very beginning, I think it right that I should ask your Lordships to allow me to say a few words on this subject. I cannot quite agree with the noble Marquess of Ripon, who has just sat down, in saying that when the Volunteers first came into existence it was not the intention of the Government to give them anything in the nature of assistance except rifles, ammunition, and drill sergeants. You must remember the circumstances under which the Volunteer Force came into existence. A sudden panic arose in England, and very naturally the manhood of the country rushed forward to place their services at the disposal of the Government and to offer their assistance; in allaying that sudden panic. It was not known at that time that the movement would develop an enormous Force which could take its place in line with the other Forces of the Kingdom, or that it was going to extend over a period of now more than 30 years. Naturally, when the Volunteer Force thus originated took root as a permanent feature among the institutions of the country, it was at once seen that the Government must support them with help both in money and in kind, so as to make the Volunteers efficient if they were to be useful. As early as 1862 a Royal Commission was appointed to consider the matter, and the Committee originated the Capitation Grant under which the Volunteer Force have so long existed. Since that time several Committees and Commissions have sat upon the subject; and I will ask your Lordships to observe; that the net result of every one of those Committees and Commissions has been an expression of opinion, first, that the Volunteers were giving as much as they could reasonably be expected to give to the Public Service of the country; secondly, that they were in the main efficient; and, thirdly, that they ought to be still further helped. The first Capitation Grant that was given to the Volunteers was but a small one. The next time a Commission was appointed an additional grant was given to the Volunteers, on the ground that with their increased efficiency and with the increased demands upon them, it was the duty of the Government to do a little more for them. Then shortly afterwards came a Committee over which I had the honour to preside, and my noble Friend Lord Wantage was with me at the War Office. We went minutely and during a very long period into the circumstances connected with the Volunteers, and the result we arrived at was that the then Capitation Grant was not entirely sufficient, and that it—the deficiency—ought to be supplied. Then, in the year 1887, Lord Harris presided over a Committee which came very much to the same conclusion. One sentence especially in the Report of that Committee I remember very well. It stated that more was now asked from them—I do not remember the exact words, but that more had been required from the Volunteers, and that more ought, therefore, to be given to them. Lord Harris also said that he followed suit to his predecessors by increasing the Capitation Grant in a certain form, or increasing, at any rate, what was given by the Government. But now new demands are made upon the Volunteers beyond the claims upon their time and attention. They rise to those new demands whenever they can, as well as they can and as often as they can. In that respect they do all that in them lies; hut I do think that they ought to be supported as my noble Friend says, or if not to that extent that at least they ought not to be put to further expense. We are now asked to provide ourselves with great-coats, havresaeks, valises, and other things. Those things cost money. My noble Friend pointed out that the grant it was proposed to give was not sufficient to provide those things. Then, if the Government does not provide them, who is to provide them? Either they must be provided from private subscriptions, or by the Volunteers themselves. You must remember that the Volunteer Force has altogether changed its cha- racter since its first inception. At first it was a middle-class institution. I have had myself, in my own regiment, men with £2,000 or £3,000 a year standing in the ranks, men of high official and social position drilling' among the rank and file. Those men do not join ns now. They entered the Volunteer Force, and gave a good example at its first start; but those are not the men we get now. It has become a working-class movement almost exclusively, and the expenses of the Volunteer Corps as such, other than for those things which are provided by the Government, fall upon the officers. All sorts of expenses, in short, are thrown upon the officers. Very properly the Government discourages large expenditure upon bands, or upon those matters of show which are still essential to the very existence of the Volunteers. Their camps cost a great deal more money than the amount which the Government gives, and all their equipments cost a deal great more than they are allowed. Therefore, the officers are called upon to incur a very large expenditure, and they have nobly risen to that requirement. I dare say it would astonish some members of your Lordships' House to be told what very large sums have been expended upon rifle ranges and drill halls, and things of that kind, things of permanent utility of which the Government or the country have had the benefit. They have been mostly obtained from private sources, and are the result of private enterprise or private benevolence. Many a command ding officer has pat down his thousands of pounds for the purpose of providing ranges and drill halls. I do not suppose that any of us who have long been in command of regiments have been able to avoid very considerable capital expenditure of that kind, which could not be met out of the capitation grant under any circumstances. Then that is not the only kind of expense; there are expenses of other kinds. In my own case, I know I was saddled with a heavy law suit— for I had to stand the brunt of it—on behalf of my corps. My corps, like others, of course, had no corporate existence, and consequently could not be sued ns a Corporation. Individuals, therefore, had to be fixed upon, and I, as commanding officer, was fixed upon, with a lieutenant in the corps who was also acting as musketry instructor, and we had an action brought against us. I am not, of course, complaining of that. I only mean to convey to your Lordships that the officers of Volunteers have expenses thrust upon them which they unhesitatingly incur with the single heart desire to farther the cause of volunteering, but which your Lordships will agree ought not to be thrust upon them; and if, in addition to those things which are borne without too much grumbling, and with the satisfaction of knowing that it is a patriotic thing to do to support the Volunteers, Volunteer officers have to pat their hands into their pockets to provide these details of military equipment without which, as the Adjutant General very truly says, the Volunteers cannot take the field, then I think you are transgressing what my noble Friend has very properly called the unwritten contract between the Volunteers and the country, and that the Government ought to come in and support those charges. I do not want to occupy too much of your Lordships' time on this subject, but merely to express my appreciation of, and acquiescence in, so much of my noble Friend's speech as says that the Volunteers ought not themselves, in pursuit of perhaps an ideal efficiency, to be put to any further expense, and that, at all events, these particular items which the Adjutant-General has had down as necessary to their efficiency, ought to be supplied at the public expense.

LORD WANTAGE

My Lords, whatever may be the result of this discussion, and of the discussion which has taken place in the other House, I do earnestly hope that the officers of the Volunteer Force, who, I think it will be allowed are a most meritorious body, will not be called upon any further to put their hands in their pockets to make good the deficiencies which arise. I have seen frequently that in the answers given by Committees of Inquiry into these matters as to how deficiencies in the Corps Fund are made up, it has been stated to be done by contributions from the officers. That I am certain is a wrong system, and it has a mischievous effect. In the first place it deters many good officers from joining the Force, and I must say that the paucity of officers which we now regret to find in the Volunteer Force largely arises from the demands which are made upon their pockets. It also deters many of those deserving and excellent officers who quit the Army, or are pressed out of it in the full majority of their age, from taking up duties which they otherwise would do. My Lords, in regard to this question of equipment, it seems to me we are in danger, and I am speaking especially now of the Volunteers, of being called upon to play the game known as "No friend of mine," in which one of the players is pushed about by the others from side to side, until at last he has had enough of it, gets tired of the game, and will not play any more. The difficulty with regard to this grant has arisen, I think, from what I would describe as a muddle, in which some very distinguished persons have taken a part. First, I would mention the late Lord Mayor; then I would say the Adjutant General, and thirdly, the Secretary of State for War. The late Lord Mayor came very gallantly to the front—I cannot in any way blame him—and announced that he was going to raise what he called a Patriotic Fund. That fund, however, was for the purpose of equipping only a very small portion, about one-eighth of the Force. He mentioned a large sum of money which he was going to raise, but he did not succeed in getting much more than half of it. Simultaneously with the proposal to raise that fund by the late Lord Mayor, but not in the least in concert with him, a Circular of Instructions was issued by the Adjutant General, addressed to general officers, brigadiers, and others who are in the habit of inspecting Volunteers, and it gave an Instruction which I think was perfectly right. It states that if Volunteer Corps have not those articles which are absolutely necessary in taking the field they should be pronounced inefficient. Now, I have heard it rather pressed that this Circular of the Adjutant General of last May should be withdrawn; but I think if that is so those general officers, brigadiers, and others would be placed in this ridiculous position, that when they inspect a Volunteer Corps they would have to say, "This Corps is thoroughly efficient except in possessing all those articles which would enable it to take the field." Then the Secretary of State for War took some part in this matter, but he did so more in the character of a private individual. He attended the meeting of the Lord Mayor, and spoke in favour of raising this Equipment Fund. He sat next to that distinguished field marshal. Lord Napier, whose death we all so greatly regret, and he heard Lord Napier say that it was impossible the Volunteers could hold the field for one week without this proper and necessary equipment. Therefore, my Lords, we appear to be in this position: that there is no doubt as to the necessity for these things being supplied, but we are in the difficulty of not knowing who is to provide the funds. As has been pointed out by previous speakers, the resources of the public have been entirely dried up since what took place in the House of Commons and the statement in the Adjutant General's Circular. But in speaking of the Secretary of State for War I do not wish to dwell so much upon what he has not done as upon what he has done, and, as it is so thoroughly germane to the whole question of the Volunteers, I cannot resist for the moment pointing out what he has done. There has been no Secretary of State for War within my experience who has done so well and so wisely for the Volunteer Force. He has given them an organisation and place among the great defences of the country which they never had before. The Secretary of State for War, no doubt, feels a little disappointed at the adverse part taken by Volunteers in the recent Vote in another place, who ought to have remembered how much, the Secretary of State for War has done for the Volunteer Force; yet those Volunteers have this excuse, that, in proportion as they are being more and more pressed and encouraged to take up a responsible position in the defence of the country—gratifying, no doubt, as that is to the Volunteers themselves, yet they must be conscious that when they are put in this honourable position much heavier obligations rest upon them. And if they now ask for some additional allowances, and take part in a Vote which has been described as a Party Vote, I think some excuse must be made for them. But, my Lords, I want to say a few words more about what the Secretary of State for War has done for the Volunteer Force. He has given the Volunteer Force a brigade organisation which, in my humble judg- ment, is of the greatest possible advantage. It is all very well to have, as we have had for the last 30 years, a number of very efficient Regiments; but without a brigade organisation really they were very inefficient troops. When turned over to a general officer to be taken in hand those regiments could not be made use of. The question whether troops can be made useful or not rests entirely upon this: if they are handed over to a general officer as regiments they are useless, but if they are handed over as brigades then the general officer can handle them. He can give them a proper position in an Army Corps, and he at once knows how to use that machinery which is placed in his hands. For 30 years we have been without this organisation, and now I am thankful to say that we have a very complete brigade organisation, which is entirely under the control of the Volunteer Officers with the brigadiers, brigade majors, and the whole staff composed of Volunteers themselves. So that, on an emergency arising, we should not have to call in the assistence of the regular Army, but be able at once to take the position we might be called upon to fill. It strikes me as a matter of very considerable surprise, because so very little notice has been taken of it, that in addition to this brigade organisation we have had unfolded to us a most complete scheme of organisation and decentralisation which has been very carefully worked out. Practical positions have been purchased or obtained all over the country. Those sites have had no masonry erected upon them—no necessity of that kind, I am thankful to say, has been imposed upon us—but a great deal of trench work has been done, and all the works necessary might easily be thrown up. So that in a moment of emergency the Volunteers would be able to march to the technical position, and they would there find all that is necessary for their equipment supplied, and the whole thing would work as easily as possible. I hope my noble Friend Lord Brownlow, who occupies a post which I am sure he will fill with great success from his experience with this particular branch of the Public Service, may some day, acting in conjunction with his Chief, the Secretary of State for War, sit in his room, and be able to ring his bell and say that the Volunteers are to proceed to their stations as may be desired. We shall then be able to get a magnificent rehearsal of what can be done, and one which would inspire confidence both in this country and abroad. If I might be allowed to add a small criticism of the speech which was delivered by the Secretary of State for War in the House of Commons, when he unfolded the scheme which has been spoken of, I would for a moment call attention to this. He said— The second line of defence will be occupied solely by Volunteers. He then went on to say— We shall have at least 18 Brigades of Infantry, and 216 guns allotted to them. It maybe said that this force is not sufficiently mobile to constitute a thoroughly efficient Field Army; to which it is opposed that it is not so intended, and that it may be doubted, with the comparatively small amount of time which the mass of our Volunteers and their officers are able to give to their work, whether it would be possible to organise them as a Field Army. My Lords, I wish to say that I think in this speech, there is rather, as it appears to me, the source of what may be mischief. These Brigades are to be placed; the officers to command them are to be told that in no case are these troops to be used as a Field Army. The officer will say that he will attend to those orders. An emergency arises: he finds it impossible to adhere to those instructions; and then those troops are at once launched into the field, and have to do duties which it has been declared they are not fit for. I say that is putting the Volunteers to duties to which you ought not to put them, and I hope they will not be put to work for which they have been declared unfit. Neither do I think that they ought to be so inefficiently equipped as to be unfit. I think this portion of the speech of the Secretary of State for War has led up to the position of some difficulty in which we are. I have taken what I may call a technical regiment of eight companies, consisting of 80 men per company; that gives 640 men, all of whom I take as efficient. Every man being efficient the regiment will earn the full Capitation Grant of £1,120. That is all that the Volunteer regiment will get. Out of that sum the regiment has to equip itself with headquarters, pay for the hire of rooms, ranges, uniform, band and interest. If you will permit me I will shortly state what are the items which the War Office declare not to be necessary and inadmissible towards allowance for grants. There is the cost of attending Reviews; a portion of bands only are admissible; payment of men in camp is not admissible. Then we come to greatcoats, haversacks, mess tins, and pouches to carry 70 rounds. There are other matters which are not admissible, such as an extra pair of boots, and the like. When the War Office declare that these things are not admissible, they are under the delusion, as I think, that the Volunteers will never be called upon to act in the field. When they have come to the conviction that that view is incorrect, then, as a matter of course, these greatcoats, mess tins, haversacks and pouches will be made admissible. Those of your Lordships who are Volunteers know that it is absolutely necessary when a man goes into camp that he should have either a valise or a pack to put his things in. I quite admit that a valise is not tin; best thing, because it is not desirable that men should be called upon to march carrying their valises upon their shoulders; but I do say that if these men are to go into camp they must have some form of pack or knapsack in which their things are to be put. In that pack they ought to have at least a pair of boots, a pair of socks, and a, change of linen. That is not much to ask for, and it is within the Adjutant General's category of what is to be granted when the regiments are mobilised. I hope Government will take into consideration the fact that these things are necessary, and will at an early date give the Volunteer Force some sum—perhaps the two guineas spoken of by the Adjutant General—for procuring these necessary articles.

* LORD SANDHURST

My Lords, I only wish to interpose for a moment to say a few words with regard to the Circular issued in May last by the Adjutant General. I cannot agree with the noble Lord who has just sat down that it is a satisfactory document. I think it may be satisfactory after this full equipment has been given. It says that after a date to be named the possession of this extra equipment will be made a condition of efficiency; that their production for inspection will be necessary, in order that the Capitation Grant may be earned; which means, I presume, that the Capitation Grant will ho withheld if this equipment is not produced; hut if it is withheld, that would entirely cut away the ground from under the feet of that particular corps and cause its disbandment. Something was said upon this point in the House of Commons, and it was stated on behalf of the Government that the actual meaning of the Circular was not what was supposed. I should be glad of some assurance from the Under Secretary of State for War that that portion of this Circular would be suspended, if not withdrawn, until the equipment is obtained, so that it may not strike such terror as it does among the commanding officers. The effect of this would be the disbanding of the corps, which would be practically the same thing, I think, as cutting off a man's head to cure him of a cold in his head. I agree generally with what has been said by noble Lords, who have had great experience upon this subject. I think, if we are to maintain the Volunteer Force as a useful body, it should be properly maintained. With regard to the Fund which was got up by the Lord Mayor, I admire the public spirit of the subscribers; but I think it is likely to tell unfairly throughout the country. In a rich Metropolis like London, no doubt such a Fund can be provided, and in certain other districts money could be procured, but there are other districts whore it could not; and this immediate effect would result—that half your force will be fully-equipped, and the other half will be without equipment. The Committees which have sat upon the question of the Volunteers do not seem to have been thoroughly successful; and I hope when the noble Lord consults with his colleagues at the War Office these questions will receive careful consideration, and that something permanent may be the result of it.

* EARL BROWNLOW

My Lords, the subject which Iris been brought before the House by the noble Earl to-night is one which has lately been considered both by the Volunteers and by the public. I am glad that the noble Earl, by bringing the subject forward, has given me an opportunity of making a statement upon the matter in your Lordships' House, where the Volunteer Force is so well and so ably represented, and I trust that the effect of this statement may be, at any rate, to remove certain misconceptions and misunderstandings which appear to exist. The idea has got about, I do not know how or whence, but I am clear that it exists, that the present Administration has not been favourable to the Volunteers. When we come to consider what has been done for the Volunteers during the last few years I think your Lordships will agree with me, in the first place, that no thinking man could bring such an accusation against the present Secretary of State for War. That point has already been ably dealt with by Lord Wantage. Battalions hate been told off into Brigades, and those Brigades have been placed under the command of the most competent and zealous Brigadiers that it has been possible to find. Then, again, the Volunteers have been encouraged to join Brigade camps; and I think every Volunteer will admit that the allowances for Brigade camps to enable Volunteers to take advantage of this very excellent military training has been given on a very liberal scale. Again, arrangements have been in progress by which Volunteers, when mobilised, will be able to receive their stores without any friction and without any confusion. And, finally, during the present Administration the Grant in favour of the Volunteers has been increased altogether by the very large sum of £100,000 a, year. Your Lordships, no doubt, remember, and it has been stated already to-night, that, at the beginning of the Volunteer movement there was no Capitation Grant at all. The Capitation Grant, I think, was first instituted in 1862, and since that time it has been continually considered and re-considered by Committees at the War Office. The last of those Committees was the Committee presided over by Lord Harris in the year 1887, and that Committee recommended in its Report that the Grant should be increased from 30s. to 35s. I wish to remind your Lordships that the same policy has always been adhered to from the very beginning of the Volunteer movement, and that policy is that the Volunteers should be given a Capitation Grant, and that with the aid of that Capitation Grant they should find their own clothing and equipment. The Capitation Grant has been from time to time increased to enable the Volunteers to find what is necessary for them. But I wish distinctly to point out that the policy of 28 years has never been altered; and I can only say this—that I believe the present Government, or any future Government, will consider the matter thoroughly and fully, and see that really good reasons are given before departing from the policy which has been pursued during that period. I will also ask your Lordships to remember that it is under this policy that the Volunteers have now risen to be a great and permanent source of strength to the country. I will now refer to the Adjutant General's Letter. It is dated the 28th May, 1889. In that Letter the Adjutant General divides the equipment of Volunteers into three heads, not into two, as the noble Karl stated. Probably he thought the third so unimportant that he did not care to notice it. The first head consists of greatcoats, havresacks, water bottles, and mess tins. The second head comprises what is necessary to make a Volunteer corps efficient in case of mobilisation, which is to be purchased for the £2 2s 0d. And the third head comprises the articles of camp equipment which would be issued on mobilisation. As regards this third head, I do not think I need trouble your Lordships; I will only touch upon the second head of articles to be purchased for the £2 2s. 0d. The noble Earl asked whether that sum was intended to be spent for the articles which had been obtained before. I can only say it was not so intended, but only for articles which would have to be obtained in a hurry. Then with regard to the greatcoats, havresacks, water bottles, and mess tins. I should like to call attention to the words used in the Adjutant General's Letter. He says that the inquiries of the various Committees which have examined into the subject of Capitation Grants, and the accounts received in this office, show that with the £2 2s. 0d. there will be sufficient to cover all the articles mentioned in Class I. He then goes on to say that the articles can be obtained without difficulty, and will be covered by the instalments as they become due. Now, in the year 1888 we obtained a Return of the equipments possessed by different corps at that time, and we found that out of 190 Battalions, 131 were possessed of haversacks, and 86 were possessed of water bottles. I would remind your Lordships that this was at a time before any pressure at all had been put upon the Volunteers. I think it is only reasonable, seeing that so large a number of the Volunteer Corps have supplied themselves with these articles, that we should consider the time was approaching when the whole Force should be equally well supplied. I have not mentioned the greatcoats because they were only referred to in the Return of 1888. There was no Return except for greatcoats for either 1887 or 1889. It is necessary to get a Return on that head, because the Government gives 2s. per man for greatcoats, and a Return was necessary in order to find out what the Government will have to pay. In 1887, before the capitation grant was raised to 35s., the Volunteers had 40,640 greatcoats; in 1888 the number had risen to 67,402, and the grant paid for those greatcoats amounted to £6,740. This was before the Adjutant General's Letter was published. In 1889 the number of greatcoats was 94,303, and the sum given to the Volunteers for those greatcoats was £9,430. The number of greatcoats increased during those three years very rapidly, and it was hoped that the time would not be far distant, if the increase went on as rapidly, when the whole force would be equipped with greatcoats in addition to their other equipment. Now, the passage in the Adjutant General's Letter which has caused the most comment is this, "After a date to be hereafter named, the possession of these articles is to be made a condition of efficiency." It has been supposed, and I quite admit that the words might be a little misleading, that those words meant some immediately approaching date to be hereafter named. That was not the intention of the Circular. The intention was that after these equipments had been fully, or very nearly found, a date might then be fixed after which the Volunteers would be compelled to produce those things to prove their efficiency, in order to show that they were keeping up their supply. That was the intention of the Circular. However, I am perfectly ready to admit that it might be thought to possess some other construction, and I am glad, therefore, to have this opportunity of explaining the matter to the House. With regard to this point, that the Adjutant General believes the things will be obtained as the instalments become due, there have been complaints that the Volunteers have been unable to find tradesmen who would enable them to procure these things and pay off the cost by means of the grant. I can only say that if the commanding officers of Volunteer Corps would like to consult with the Clothing Department of the War Office, that Department would be glad to give them any advice in their power with regard to the choice of tradesmen and the means of providing the equipment. There is in store at this moment a considerable number of part worn greatcoats—that is a technical term which may mislead, because they are really the very same goods which have been served out to Volunteers in camp for several years past; most of them are in very good condition, and the whole number are available to be sold to Volunteer Corps, if they would like to purchase them, at a very reasonable rate. As your Lordships are, I daresay, aware, under these circumstances the Volunteer Corps would be able to have three years' credit to pay off the debt. That is had down in the Volunteer Regulations. I should like to call your Lordships' attention to this point—that in the Adjutant General's Letter there is not a single word said about raising voluntary subscriptions. The Adjutant General assumes that the grant of £2 2s. will be sufficient to provide these things. He does not say one word about the money being raised in any other way than by the capitation grant. It maybe said that though subscriptions have not been absolutely asked for they have not been discouraged. Certainly, I do not see why the Government should discourage subscriptions which show the interest the country takes in our Volunteer Corps; and in many cases some such subscriptions have been started, and notably in London. I believe in some places the equipment which has been provided for the Volunteers is very considerably in excess of anything the Government has asked for or demanded. I have no official knowledge of the fact, but I think we may see for ourselves Volunteers going through the streets with a very full equipment indeed—much more so than is required by the Circular. Now, my Lords, I have endeavoured to explain, as far as I can, the action of Her Majesty's Government in the past; and as regards the future I am afraid on this matter it is impossible for me to say much, or, indeed, anything definite. Her Majesty's Government perfectly recognise that after the Vote of the House of Commons the other night the whole question will have to be reconsidered, and what the result of this re-consideration may be it is impossible for me to say at this moment. But I can give your Lordships this assurance at least, that in considering this matter Her Majesty's Government will have but one object in view, and that is that those who give their time and services for nothing to the country shall, when the time of need comes, be able to turn out and take their place in any great struggle, with an ample and sufficient equipment