Lords Sitting of 13 March 1890

Preamble
His Royal Highness the Duke of Edinburgh—Singly took the oath.
INDIAN COUNCILS BILL—(No. 28)

  COMMITTEE.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now considered in Committee."
  LORD HERSCHELL: My Lords, there is a matter to which I desire to call the attention of the noble Viscount opposite in going into Committee on this Bill, because it appears to me to be a matter of very considerable importance, and one which will interfere with the object of the legislation with which the noble Viscount is now concerned, the design of which is to improve the condition of the Provincial Councils in India and to give them further activity and vitality. It will, I think, very much interfere with that end and object unless it receives the attention of your Lordships' House. It will be observed that in the Bill, as originally drafted, and which received the approval of the Government of India, there was a provision contained in the 3rd clause of the Bill that the Local Legislature of any Province in India might, by Acts passed under and subject to the provisions of the Indian Councils Act of 1861, repeal or amend as to that Province any legislation made with regard to that Province, prior to the passing of the Act or to the formation of any Councils subsequently established. In order to explain the point, I should like to call attention to the provisions contained in the Indian Councils Act of 1861. That Act deals with the Councils. Let me take the Council of Bombay as an illustration. It enabled the Council of Bombay to act in regard to what I may call local legislation, but it provided that it was not by its legislation in any way to repeal or amend or interfere with any law passed by the Council of the Governor General subsequent to the Indian Councils Act of 1861—the object, of course, being that, the Local Legislature should not interfere with subsequent legislation of the Governor General in
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  Council dealing with matters with which it thought fit to deal, notwithstanding the existence of the Provincial Council; but it left the Provincial Council free to deal with all the legislation prior to 1861, and of course with all legislation on matters which were in no way dealt with for Bombay by the subsequent action of the Governor General in Council. It enabled other Provincial Councils to be formed, but they could only be formed subject to the same conditions as to legislation as were applicable to Bombay. The consequence was that any Provincial Councils formed, however many years afterwards, could not deal with any subject of legislation practically between 1861 and the time it was formed, which had been dealt with for that Province by the Governor General in Council. Before that time there had been comparatively little legislation of that kind, and, therefore, to preclude a Council formed in 1861 or about that time from dealing with any legislation subsequent to 1861 was to limit their legislation to a very small area. But after 1861 there was a great deal of legislation necessary by the Governor General in Council affecting other parts of India, affecting them as to purely local details, as to which the Government had never before thought fit to interfere. Therefore, when the Local Council was constituted for the North West Provinces it was in this position: that it could not deal with any subject of legislation that had been dealt with in any way whatever, so that purely local matters which had been dealt with by the Governor General in Council between 1861 and, say, 1880, could not be dealt with by the Provincial Council. For example, if the Governor General in Council had dealt with such matters as the straying of cattle, or trespassing of cattle, which are of course purely local concerns, then because they had been dealt with in some way by the Governor General before the North-West Provinces Council was constituted, the North West Provinces Council was powerless to deal with them. The consequence is, that though the North-West Provinces Council has been created, its hands are tied, and it is prevented from dealing with a vast range of purely local subjects which the other Councils, such as the Council of Bombay,

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  have been dealing with for years. If there is a Council constituted for the Punjaub, which will probably soon be the case, that will be subject to the same fetters. The consequence is, that there will be little advantage gained by increasing the importance or strengthening the powers of the Provincial Councils if you only strengthen them in importance, but leave them in such a position that they are prevented from dealing with a vast range of purely local matters, which it is in the highest degree expedient the Councils should be induced to take up as much as possible. To meet that difficulty the 3rd clause was introduced into the draft Bill which is before your Lordships' House, and it was approved by the Governor General in Council. I need not read it; but that clause practically gets rid of the difficulty to which I have called your attention, and enables these Councils, notwithstanding the prior legislation before they were constituted by the Governor General in Council, to deal with these important local matters. I do not know why tins clause has dropped out of the Bill, but I desire to call your Lordships' attention to it because it is really of little use to strengthen these Provincial Councils, as I hold it is in the highest degree necessary to strengthen them, and which will lead to most valuable work being done in India, if their hands are tied so that they cannot deal with these important subjects of every-day interest, and regarding purely local concerns, which it is necessary for them to deal with and legislate upon. I hope, therefore, that we shall have some explanation from the noble Viscount as to why this clause has been omitted.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS): My Lords, what has fallen from the noble and learned Lord opposite is perfectly true. This clause was in the original Bill, and had received practically the sanction of the Government of India. It was only left out in order to lighten the Kill, which we are anxious your Lordships' House should pass. Thinking, however, that it would be wise not to leave that point alone, I have been in consultation with some of those who are most intimately acquainted with the North-Western Provinces, and I am prepared,
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  if it should be considered necessary for this clause to be inserted, to at once assent to that re-insertion. But I am further strengthened in that opinion by the consideration that the more one looks into the matter the more one is convinced that the extension of these Councils will be a great advantage to India. I am in correspondence privately with the Viceroy as to whether it would not be well in other parts of India to set up Councils like these in order, as far as possible, to bring about decentralisation. If, therefore, in Committee the noble Earl will move the re-insertion of that clause in the Bill, I shall at once assent to it.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I am exceedingly glad that my noble and learned Friend has called attention to this matter. I am sorry I overlooked it, because the point was raised at the time I was at the India Office, and extreme inconvenience was experienced by the absence of such a clause as this which has been left out of the Bill. I believe it would be a great practical remedy for that inconvenience. I have heard with great pleasure the opinion, which the noble Viscount has expressed that it is desirable to extend the Councils to other parts of India. At the time I was in the India Office it was determined to extend the system of Councils to the North-Western Provinces, and I certainly from what I heard at that time, speaking from my own examination of the subject, am fully persuaded that from time to time as the Provinces are found to be in a fit condition to receive Councils, they should be extended to those Provinces.
  On Question, agreed to.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  Clause 1.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: It will be perhaps in the recollection of your Lordships that on the Second Reading of this Bill my noble Friends the Marquess of Ripon and the Earl of Kimberley and I myself expressed our cordial support of the Bill, but our desire that the door should not be shut to some system of election or selection in respect of the nomination of members, certainly of the Local Legislatures and possibly also of the Supreme Legislature. My Lords, in

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  expressing that opinion we took care, and my noble Friends will correct me if I am not giving an accurate account of their views as well as my own, to express our o pinion that India was at the present time entirely unsuited to the introduction of any general system of popular representation. In the discussion my noble Friend the Marquess of Ripon gave an illustration of the manner in which, when lie was Viceroy, he made one or two appointments to the Legislative Council of the Viceroy; that is to say, by requesting a Public Body of some importance in Calcutta to recommend a gentleman for appointment as a member of that Council, in view of a very important project of law which was then being discussed. In reply to our observations, the noble Viscount the Secretary of State for India referred to that illustration, and expressed his opinion that some such practice as that was likely to be carried out under the Bill, and he said it might be very desirable that Public Bodies of differ nit kinds in India should make recommendations to the Viceroy and to the heads of Local Governments for appointments to the different Legislative Councils, the Viceroy and the heads of the Local Governments nominating, if they thought fit, the persons so recommended to them. I think the noble Viscount added that he believed that could be done under the provisions of the Bill. I was a little doubtful whether that suggestion could be carried out without possibly a legal difficulty arising, unless an extension were made of the words contained in the Bill; and for the purpose of making that quite clear I venture to propose the Amendment which I have placed upon your Lordships' Table, namely, to insert the following words at the end of Clause 1:—
  "Provided that the Governor General in Council may from time to time, with the approval of the Secretary of State in Council make regulations as to the conditions under which such nomiations or any of them shall be made by the Governor General, Governors, and Lieutenant Governors respectively, and prescribe the manner in which such regulations should be carried into effect."
  I apprehend those words will make it quite clear that some such system as was indicated by my noble Friend the Marquess of Ripon, and which appeared to receive the a sent of the Secretary of State for India could be carried into
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  effect. I have only to add one word more, end that is to express my own opinion that while it is desirable that a certain number of nominations to the Legislative Councils in India may be made in this manner, yet I am far from thinking that it would be wise at the present time to enact that all the non-official members of the Council should be nominated after such consultation; and I will give your Lordships an illustration showing how difficult it would be to create such a rule with fairness to the people of India. I take it that in the Lower Province of Bengal the representation of the ryots, the cultivators of the soil—that is, the great mass of the people must be provided for by the selection of some person by the Lieutenant Governor, for instance, some member of the Civil Service who has paid great attention to the wants of the ryots, and who can represent those wants in the Legislative Council, Taking any system that could be applied to Bengal at the present time for the purpose of selecting a representative by the recommendation of Public Bodies, it would be exceedingly unlikely that anyone really representing the great mass of the cultivators of the soil would be recommended. Therefore, I think, there should always be some power reserved to the Governors and Lieutenant Governors of Provinces, in order to provide for the representation of different classes of people—people of different races and different religions—a representation which could not be adequately provided for by any system of election which I have yet seen advocated by anyone who has taken the subject into consideration. I venture, therefore, to move the insertion of the words which I have read.
  Amendment moved, at the end of Clause 1, to add—
  "Provided that the Governor General in Council may from time to time, with the approval of the Secretary of State in Council, make regulations as to the conditions under which such nominations, or any of them, shall he made by the Governor General, Governors, and Lieutenant Governors respectively, and prescribe the manner in which such regulations shall be carried into effect."—[The Marl of Northbrook.)
  VISCOUNT CROSS: The noble Lord who has just sat down has most accurately described wit at I had the honour of stating to your Lordships when I intro-

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  duced this Bill, and therefore it is unnecessary for me to repeat anything I then said, because it has been so plainly put before your Lordships by the noble Lord. It had always been my intention when this Bill became law, which I hope will soon be the case, to follow the example of Sir Charles Wood, and in sending out a copy of the Act to send with it a despatch pointing out how these members of Council might very well be nominated, so as not only to give the Governor General, the Governors, and Lieutenant Governors, sufficient additional assistance, as they might require, but that they might get the best representatives of the people of the country. But the noble Lord has said that there might be some possible legal difficulty experienced in carrying that out, unless there was something in the Act of Parliament showing how that might be done. Nothing was, or is, further from my mind than to leave a legal difficulty open for further dispute; and therefore I have not the smallest objection to insert such words in order to make quite clear the intention of the Legislature in passing this Act of Parliament. There is one further advantage in inserting words of this kind, and that is that their insertion will satisfy the people of India that this matter has been thought of and considered, when they find that this particular point is referred to in the Act itself which practically increases the number of persons who are to be nominated. I do not think, therefore, that I should be justified now in taking up more of your Lordships' time upon the matter than I have already done, because I should only be repeating what I said on the Second Reading of the Bill. I have no objection to the insertion of those words.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I am extremely glad to heal that the noble Viscount will accept the words proposed by the noble Lord behind me. I am bound to say that I can express my own satisfaction, because I regard this as to a certain extent admitting the elective principle. I understand that this will enable the Governor General, Governors, and Lieutenant Governors to put into the hands of certain public bodies the selection of the persons who are to be nominated by him to the Council. That may not not be, strictly
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  speaking, what we should call election; but I welcome this clause as opening the door—because I should wish to leave an open door—to the Government to practically leave the selection to bodies who will, in fact, elect the representatives. I entirely agree with my noble Friend behind me that it is not desirable that this system, whatever it may be which is adopted, should be extended to the whole of the non-official members; in other words, it is most essential in India that the interests of minorities should be protected. It has been found in this country not very easy to protect the interests of minorities by any contrivance that can be devised; but there must be found some mode in India of seeing that minorities such as the important body of Mahomedans, who are frequently in a minority in parts of that country, are fully represented. There are several reasons, as my noble Friend stated, for adopting that course. It is not, of course, really possible that the ryots should be represented otherwise than by such persons as may be selected by the Governors. These, my Lords, are the reasons why I thoroughly agree with the noble Lord that this will be an improvement to the Bill, and I can only hope that, under a judicious use of those powers by the Governor General, with all such safeguards as would be necessary in carrying out a very important experiment such as this, this enactment will be found to be a very valuable addition to the constitution of the Councils in India.
  On question, "That the proposed words stand part of the Bill," agreed to.
  Clause 2 agreed to.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: Your Lordships may have observed that when questions have been put either in this or in the other House of Parliament with regard to grievances or complaints in India, one of two answers is generally given, either that the Secretary of State for India has not had the matter referred to him, and he knows nothing about it, or that the matter has been decided by the Indian Government, and ho cannot go back from what they have done. On one of the occasions last Session when I put a question to the noble Viscount I was making no complaint against individual officials, but rather against the system

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  that was going on—I called attention to cases of men and women who had been fined and imprisoned for trifling infractions of the Revenue Laws in regard to the manufacture of salt. I am glad of this opportunity of thanking the noble Viscount for saying that he would inquire into the matter, for he inquired to such good purpose that a very short time afterwards it was announced that resolutions had been passed prohibiting prosecutions in future for trivial infractions of the Revenue Laws in regard to salt. But it is not only natives who have to suffer from injustice, but also Englishmen. There was the case of a Mr. Crole who obtained justice from my noble Friend, and before that from Earl Kimberley. Mr. Crole having been suspended through the action of a Member of the Madras Council, came home to England and laid his case before the Secretary for India. He was ordered to be, and was, re-instated as far as he could be re-instated; but as his place had been taken in the meantime by somebody else, he had to be placed in an inferior position, and he lost besides a year's salary-. I believe the noble Viscount afterwards gave him that year's salary; but I do not know whether it came out of the pockets of the taxpayers or had to be made good by those who had suspended him. There can be no reason for any obstacle being placed in the way of the Government knowing in time what has been done by its subordinates; therefore, my Lords, I beg leave to move the Amendment of which I have given notice. Perhaps the noble Viscount will be able also to tell me whether the four restrictions contained in Clause 19 of the Act of 1861 will still be in force, and if that which is not forbidden by those restrictions will be permitted?
  Amendment moved, on Page 2, at end of Clause 2, to add—
  "Provided also that rules made under this Act shall not prohibit questions being asked relating to complaints respecting alleged acts of maladministration within British territory." (The Lord Stanley of Alderley.)
  VISCOUNT CROSS: In reply to the last observation of the noble Lord, the four restrictions he refers to will undoubtedly be in force. I know of no others. As to my noble Friend's Amendment, I think the words he proposes would be
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  dangerous, and they would certainly be superfluous. In the first place, the rules are to be drawn up by the Governor General, and if we permit questions to be asked I think it should be for him to consider the matter. I think the Viceroy should have the power of putting a stop to any question if he thinks it advisable, because it might be entirely against the public interest for certain questions to be answered. That liberty you must leave to the Viceroy, Governors, and Lieutenant Governors. Therefore I should say that those words would be utterly useless, because no such rule would ever be made as to prevent any general inquiry into cases of maladministration. In fact the object of giving this right of asking questions is for the purpose of interrogating the Government upon their acts. At the same time, it is necessary to preserve the power of the Viceroy, Governors, and Lieutenant Governors, to prevent any question being asked, or at all events to refuse an answer in case it should be in his opinion injurious to the public interest. I hope, therefore, your Lordships will not desire that that Amendment should be adopted.
  On Question, "That the proposed words stand part of the Bill," resolved in the negative.
  Clause 3 and Clause 4 agreed to.
  LORD HERSCHELL: After Clause 4, I have to move a new clause in reference to the powers of Indian Provincial Legislatures. I need not say anything further about it on the present occasion, because I stated all I had to say about it upon going into Committee.
  Moved, on page 3, after clause, to insert the following new clause:—
  "The local legislature of any province in India may from time to time, by Acts passed under and subject to the provisions of the Indian Councils Act, 1861, and with the previous sanction of the Governor General, hut not otherwise, repeal or amend as to that province any law or regulation made either before or after the passing of this Act by any authority in India other than that local legislature: Provided that an Act or a provision of an Act made by a local legislature, and subsequently assented to by the Governor General in pursuance of the Indian Councils Act, 1861, shall not be deemed invalid by reason only of its requiring the previous sanction of the Governor General under this section."—(The Lord Herschell,)
  On question, "That the proposed words stand part of the Bill," agreed to.
  Bill to be read 3a on Monday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 40.)

COUNTY COUNCILS ASSOCIATION EXPENSES BILL.—(No. 37.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  Amendments reported (according to order).
  LORD HERSCHELL: I have to propose an Amendment to this Bill. It is little more than a verbal Amendment; but it has been suggested to me by the President of the Local Government Board, and I think it carries out the intention of the Bill. As the Bill is worded, it enables subscriptions to be provided by the County Councils to form a Common Fund, and the intention no doubt was to form a single Association, of which all the County Councils in England and Wales might be members. The President of the Local Government Board has thought it might be considered that power was given to subscribe to an unlimited number of Associations. That was not the intention of the Bill, and, therefore, I propose to amend it so that it will read that it is formed for the purpose of consulting upon matters to the common interest of County Councils in England and Wales. That meets the objection of the President of the Local Government Board, and he approves that Amendment.
  Amendment proposed, in Clause 1, line 6, to leave out the words "purposes aforesaid," in order to insert the words—
  "purpose of consultations as to their common interests and the discussion of matters relating to local government,"—(The Lord Herschell.)
  —instead thereof.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.

STANDING ORDER No. XXI.
LORD TEYNHAM: Your Lordships will believe that it is with keen regret and disinclination—more, perhaps, than I can express, for I do not know that words are adequate to their expression—that
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I invite your attention to the Motion and to the observations of which I have given notice. I do regret to have to make this Motion. I regret that it should be necessary, but I believe that regret is pardoned to humanity since we know that it has sometimes been divine, and I feel myself precluded from resting any appeal on the ground of disinclination to make this Motion, contrary to my own wish. Although, as too often happens, I am ashamed to say I do not realise it as fully as I should, that unwillingness, far from being a disadvantage, is an advantage, and a great, advantage, if I have undertaken this in submission to the imperious necessity sometimes laid by a higher power upon the unwilling. For nearly 50 years I have possessed, and made use of, the opportunity afforded at ail times of observing—vigilantly and sometimes anxiously observing —the fluctuating political fortunes of your Lordships' House, but more intently the variations in mode, in temper, and in manner (which is but the index of temper) and in the ideas which have been presented to, and received by, the mind of the House, determining it in an upward or a downward course, and, above all—forgive me, my Lords, because I particularly wish you to mark this—in the consciousness or unconsciousness of power, for I want your Lordships to regard that alternative, since by it is almost differentiated life from death. Oh, the greatness of that immense influence—I might almost say a creative influence—over your political fortunes! In the days which J can remember your Standing Orders were, I will not say prized, but they were thought useful as indicating the sequence of business. Still, they were more than prized—they were reverenced, not because they could in theory be appealed to, for I appeal to my contemporaries whether they practically ever were appealed to—hardly ever—but because they exercised an unseen and benign influence in determining the deliberations of your Lordships' House in the direction of dignified order. I particularly wish that you should consider this: that if you are henceforth to substitute for the rude—I do not use the word in its usual, but in its technical sense—and mechanical operation of Standing Orders, that high code of mutual

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forbearance of mutual respect, of mutual confidence, I assure your Lordships you will be creating a stone of Sisyphus to which you can give no rest, and which will give no rest to you, but of which the revolutions, ever provoking— the deadly tiresome revolutions will be never ending and still beginning. I hope, my Lords, you will not consider me a laudator temporis acti, but I say, and I speak from remembrance, that the Standing Orders of your Lordships' House in my earlier days were regarded rather as decorations than as restraints. They resembled those Orders which distinguish the more eminent Members of your Lordships' House, for they were accompanied by statutory obligations, but those statutory obligations were interpreted, in the true, gentle, tender spirit of chivalry. To show you that I am not entirely disentitled to speak from experience, 1 may mention that I was present by favour (though very shortly afterwards I became entitled to be there by right) at the foot of the throne, upon what I think you will agree was a. very important historical occasion—it was. if I remember rightly, the last day of the last Administration of Lord Melbourne, a great Minister with whom I should not on all points agree, but who concealed under a. gay exterior the most heroic self-abnegation and the proudest disdain of reward, but who has his reward now, for the people of England are beginning to learn the lasting value of his services. My Lords, I have had better fortune even than that, for I had the good fortune to hear the noble Viscount boast with legitimate pride that he had taken the noble Earl, the now Opposition chief, from the Buckhounds and made him a leader of men. There is a well-worn proverb, which is familar to our neighbours, La caque sent toujours le hareng; and if I may ask your Lordships to eliminate from that proverb the slight element of coarseness which it possesses in common, I think, with most vulgar proverbs, and to apply it not in the least invidiously to the noble Earl, I think you will agree with me that the noble Earl, with wonderful and almost juvenile zest, afforded in the scene of last Friday remarkable evidence that throughout all the arduous and anxious duties of more than one exalted office held through a long series of years he cherishes
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still in his heart a loving recollection of the whip! And now as to this Motion of mine. I think I may rely upon your Lordships' recollection as on my own (and if that recollection be imperfect I should think Hansard would probably supply a little) that I did request, and, I hope, in a becoming manner, the indulgence of your Lordships' House while I asked your leave to say a few words of which I had not given any notice, and that your Lordships granted that indulgence. My sentences unfortunately are rather long, and I wish they were not so involved, but I was allowed to speak for a few moments. Your Lordships had ample time to have said, "no, no." Had I heard but one negative from the furthermost corner of the House I should have stopped at once; but I heard none—none. I must now take the opportunity of apologising to my noble Friend who interrupted me—I am sure with the very best of motives and to assure him that I thoroughly appreciate his sterling character, for although I have not the honour of his personal acquaintance, I am well assured of that. I believe that if he had had the faintest conception of what I was then going to say to your Lordships, had he known that I was pleading the cause of a gracious lady who, at that terrible time of the, massacre of the Druses, descended like a heavenly dove upon the field of carnage, and still, in Syria, devotes the rich resources of her accomplished mind, her large fortune, and all the faculties of her being to the amelioration of the condition of those Syrian natives whom she had learned to pity and to love—had the noble Lord known, further, that for seven long months she had been waiting, and waiting in vain, for justice; that her treasury, dedicated to holier purposes, is being daily exhausted by expenditure in legal and diplomatic expenses at Constantinople; that her position has become almost insupportable; that every day is an anxiety, and every hour one of wistful but baffled hope, I am sure of this, that the noble Earl would almost sooner have cut off his right hand than have offered to me the faintest interruption. And now, my Lords, as to the point of congratulation. I hope my Motion has convinced your Lordships, without my saying anything more, why I brought forward this without notice. Even did I occupy the most exalted

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position in your Lordships' House, I should consider it perfectly presumptuous on my part to give public notice on a printed paper that I intended to offer my personal congratulations to the noble Marquess on his having made an appointment or upon his having happily recovered from the influenza. My Lords, the matter does not require argument. I am speaking to men who—I do not know that it was always so in the days of our grandfathers, but it is so now—are conspicuous above all other Europeans for their observance of the amenities of life; and no one knows better the truth of what I am going to say than the noble Earl opposite, one of the greatest masters of graceful compliment. He knows very well that a compliment would lose all its freshness and therefore half its acceptability, were it to be printed and posted in the Orders of the Day. But if I may be permitted to recur to the French proverb which I quoted, the noble Earl so eagerly ran after his favourite red herring that he was led for the first time, and I am certain for the last time, in his life to an opposite conclusion. I beg also to assure Lord Camperdown that I entertain no animosity against him for the part which he took in the scene on Friday; but as no good purpose would be served by too much minimising, I think it my duty simply to say of the part taken by the noble Earl that it was conspicuously young. I will say I think he wished to terminate it the readiest manner an incident which he thought was beginning to be troublesome, and which, at all events, I suppose was troublesome to him. While he did not show any anxiety to discover what might be the meaning of that incident, he did not greatly care what might be the consequences of his own procedure. Well, my Lords, I am not vindictive; but I must say that, when I witnessed the Phaeton-like performance of the noble Earl, utterly oblivious of the paternal advice, "In medio tutissimus ibis," I was at that moment appalled, as I am at this moment surprised; and, for a very sufficient reason. My last previous knowledge of the noble Earl was when I hoard him deliver in your Lordships' House words which struck me greatly, words which appeared to me to soar above the spirit of Party,
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words of great weight and wisdom, and which I am inclined to think concurrently with other events, but not thereby losing their individual power, have exorcised an influence beyond the limits of your Lordships' House. I hope the noble Earl will see that I entertain no animosity against him, and I hope and desire for him nothing more than that he should have other opportunities of addressing your Lordships' House, and that he should avail himself of them. If I were vindictive, if I had the deplorable misfortune, as alas! your Lordships know is only too possible to have come of a vindictive race, and never to have been so favoured by Almighty God as to be able to overcome the natural tendency to retaliation, I might have availed myself of an easy, ready, and perfectly Parliamentary method of dealing with the noble Lord; for, my Lords, I should only have had to move, That it be entered upon the Journals of this House that Lord Teynham, having requested permission of your Lordships to congratulate the Marquess of Salisbury upon having appointed Colonel Trotter, of the Royal Engineers, Military Attaché at Constantinople, to the post of Consul General at Beyrout, the Earl of Camperdown moved that Lord Teynham be no longer hoard. In saying that, my Lords, I only desire to hold up to him on this occasion a mirror in which he may be enabled more calmly to view himself than he had the opportunity of doing in the exciting scene on Friday. I do not know that I have anything more to say. I hope the leaders on both sides of the House will see that this is a reasonable Motion.
Moved to resolve, as an addition to Standing Order XXL, that—
"When the House has tacitly and nemine contradic nte waived that or any other Order by request of a Peer to enable him to address it, no Peer shall disregard that waiver by calling or appealing to order."—(The Lord Teynham.)
EARL GRANVILLE: I do not know that there is any reason particularly why I should follow the noble Lord; at the same time, as I was one of the three Peers who called him to order on the occasion to which he has alluded, and as he has made an exceedingly courteous allusion to myself this evening, I am ready to do so, and the more readily because I wish to take the earliest oppor-

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tunity of stating that in calling him to order the other day I did not wish to show the slightest discourtesy to him. I go further—and I do not think the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Feversham) will contradict me when I say that his interrogation was a simple call to order without the least desire to show any want of respect. Lord Camperdown is, I believe, in Scotland at this moment; but it is my conviction that my observation also applies entirely to him. The order of this House, unlike that of the House of Commons, rests with the House collectively and individually, and every Member is at liberty to move the House, when he thinks it necessary, with a view to the maintenance of order. The first responsibility for order rests with the leader of the House; but as long as I have been in the House, I have always observed that the leader of the Opposition is most anxious to assist the Government in questions of this sort, and it was for that reason that I intervened. The noble Marquess the other day pointed out the irregularity of the proceedings of the noble Lord; but, at the same time, Lord Salisbury said that, personally, he did not object to hear Lord Teynham, though he could not then give him any answer. That is exactly the doctrine which I have very often preached in this House; but as I think there is an inconvenience in calling a noble Lord to order, I. made the suggestion that Lord Teynham should put a question on the Paper for the next day, in which case noble Lords would be prepared to state their opinions upon the matter. It is not for me to dictate to your Lordships the course you should take with regard to the particular Motion which has just been made; but I own that if the noble Lord can find a Seconder and a Teller, I, individually, shall vote against him on the ground that he is proposing an unnecessary change in the practice of your Lordships' House.
THE EARL OF FEVERSHAM: My Lords, I need scarcely say that in the action I took on Friday I had no personal motive whatever; nor, indeed, was it with any feeling of disrespect to the noble Lord that I took the course I did. I simply thought it my duty to rise to order, having waited to see whether he was going to confine himself to putting a question, or whether he was
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going to make remarks and raise a discussion; and I think the action I then took was in conformity with the tenour and spirit of the Standing Orders of your Lordships' House. It is there stated that where it is intended to raise a discussion upon a Motion notice of that intention should ho given the day before. Probably the noble Lord, not having been long a Member of the House, was not aware of that Standing Order, and I thought that possibly ho would be grateful to anyone who should call his attention to it. He however, proceeded with his remarks, and as he went on discussing the matter he unfortunately rendered himself liable to other interruptions. I think he will see that the Order of this House rests in the hands of your Lordships both individually and collectively as the noble Earl opposite has said. In that way this House has always maintained its own order. It is a privilege which is given to every Member, of this House, and I hope we shall long continue to exercise that privilege. I hope the House will always maintain its own order and regularity.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am not sure, my Lords, that I can follow the noble Lord who has just sat down in his admiration of the peculiar custom of this House which places the keeping of order individually in your Lordships' hands. It has often been suggested that another mode more analogous to that which obtains in the House of Commons might be adopted. But serious difficulties have been found to arise, and no change has been made. I think when there is a difficulty with regard to order in this House a larger amount of time is expended upon the matter than is devoted to such occasions in the House of Commons; but though the rule in this House involves a larger expenditure of time, it has not been thought right that any change should be made. With regard to this particular Motion, I hope the House will not adopt it, because it is a mere reiteration of that which is at present the Standing Order of the House. If you examine the words you will see that where the Standing Order has been suspended nemine contradicente nobody shall be allowed to be called to order on account of acting contrary to that decision. That would certainly be the case as the Orders stand now. The

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point in which the proceedings in this case differ from those which are contemplated in the Motion is that the decision nemine contradicente was taken in a very informal manner. As the addition will make no difference in the Orders of the House, I trust it will not be adopted.
On Question, resolved in the negative.

LARCENY ACT, 1861, AMENDMENT (USE OF FIREARMS) BILL.—(No. 18.)
House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3a to-morrow.

COMMITTEE OF SELECTION FOR STANDING COMMITTEES.
Report from, That the Committee have added the Lord Bishop of Lichfield to the Standing Committee for General Bills for the consideration of the Presentation to Benefices Bill; read and ordered to lie on the Table.
House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.