Lords Sitting of 3 March 1890

SAT FIRST.
Lord Ampthill, after the death of his father.
COUNTY COUNCILS ASSOCIATION EXPENSES BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Thursday next.—(The Lord Herschell.) (No. 32.)
INDIAN COUNCILS BILL.—(No. 28.)

  SECOND READING.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I wish to ask the noble Viscount the Secretary of State for India whether he would postpone the Second Reading of his Bill to Thursday next, because, unfortunately, the Papers he promised have not yet reached us; at all events, I have not seen them, nor has my noble Friend behind me.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS): With regard to the Papers to which my noble Friend refers, I am sorry there should have been any mistake made. But I should like to explain to the House, because I think it ought to be known, that they were sent to the Queen's Printers early last week. I had a copy of them in my hand last night, and I had been told distinctly that they would be delivered on Saturday morning. It was my desire that that should be done, as the discussion upon the Bill was coming on. It is quite clear some mistake has been made in the matter, and I can only say that I had nothing to do with it. I will, of course, postpone the Second Reading of the Bill to Thursday next as the noble Earl desires.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I need hardly say that I am quite satisfied the delay in delivering the Papers has arisen from an accident.
  Second Reading put off till Thursday next.

THE WEST END SCANDALS— PERSONAL EXPLANATION—THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, before the business of the House is proceeded with, I wish to make one or two remarks in reference to a matter with regard to which I see that my conduct has been called in question in the other House. My Lords, it is said that I met Sir Dighton Probyn with the view of enabling a person who was exposed to a serious charge to escape from justice. My meeting with Sir Dighton Probyn happened in this wise. I was coming from France—I think it was on the 18th October. When I landed at Dover I found a telegram from Sir Dighton Probyn asking if he could see me in London. I had no notion what it was about—I imagined it had something to do with Foreign Office business connected with the journeys of the Prince of Wales. I replied that I should be passing through Town, and that he would find me at the Great Northern Railway Station in time for the 7 o'clock train. I missed the 7 o'clock train, but I arrived in time for the half-past 7 train, and Sir Dighton Probyn came to me there. He then informed me what he wanted to do was to ask whether there was any ground for certain charges which had been made in the newspapers against sundry persons whom he named. My reply was, that so far as I knew, there was no ground whatever for them, no vestige of evidence against anyone except one person, whose name it is not necessary I should mention, and I said that, as against that person, I understood that the evidence was not thought to be sufficient in the judgment of those whose business it was to decide. I think I added—but of that I am not quite certain—that rumours had reached me that further evidence had been obtained, but I did not know what its character was. My Lords, I am not ashamed to say that that is all I recollect of a casual interview for which I was in no degree prepared, to which I did not attach the slightest importance, and of which I took no notes whatever. The train started very soon afterwards. The interview

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was brief and hurried; and, as far as I know, the rest of the conversation principally consisted of expressions on the part of Sir Dighton Probyn of absolute disbelief in the charges which were levelled against the person whom I have indicated, and of answers of a more reserved character on my part. I cannot give your Lordships any positive; information as to the precise language that was used at that interview; but I can give you negative information. I am quite certain that I never said, as has been imputed to me, that a warrant was about to be issued the next day, because such a statement would have been absolutele inconsistent with what I am certain I did say, that, in the judgment of the legal authorities, the evidence was insufficient. You cannot issue a warrant against a person if the evidence is insufficient. I certainly conveyed no secrets to Sir Dighton Probyn, for the best of all possible reasons, that I had no secrets to convey. I had been abroad, and I had no further information except mere rumour of the precise condition in which the affair stood; and I may add that I can aver in the most confident manner that the suggestion which has been made that a man of Sir Dighton Probyn's character and career could have appointed an interview with me for the purpose of worming out matter which he might use for the purpose of defeating the ends of justice is the wildest and most malignant imagination that has ever been conceived. For the rest, my Lords, the subject is not one that lends itself to extensive treatment, or that commends itself for lengthened debate; but I thought it right to say these few words, in order to give any noble Lords who might wish to avail themselves of it the opportunity of questioning me on the matter, should they desire to do so. To this House I am responsible, and I desire to act fully no to that responsibility.

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL. (No. 23.)

  SECOND READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Your Lordships are aware that a new edition of the Revised Statutes is in rapid progress, and that Bills of this nature are required in order to enable the expurga-
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  tion of the Statute be Book to be carried on. If is desirable that this Bill should be passed as soon as possible, as there is a volume waiting to come out as soon as the requisite authority is given by this Bill becoming law. The substance of this Bill has already passed your Lordships' House. It was comprised in a larger Bill which I introduced last Session, but which, to my great regret, was opposed in another place and dropped. Every care is taken to remove Bills of this nature entirely out of the region of controversy; and I would gladly have availed myself of any opportunity to obviate any possible source of objection rather than delay the progress of the work I have referred to, that is the issue of the volumes, which when their publication is begun ought to follow one another as quickly as possible. This Bill contains only so much of last year's Bill as deals with Acts of Parliament down to the end of the reign of William IV. That will cover the extent of the volume which is waiting to come out. I shall introduce, as soon as possible, another Bill to cover the ground of the remaining volumes which are intended to be published this year. I should add that there are some additional verbal repeals made in this Bill by reason of the Interpretation Act of last Session.
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Thursday next.

LUNACY (CONSOLIDATION) BILL. (No. 24.)

  SECOND READING.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: This Bill is introduced to complete the legislation undertaken by the Government as to lunacy. Many of the enactments contained in the Act passed last year were inserted with a view to the consolidation of the Lunacy Acts, and in the Act of 1889 it was provided that it should not come into operation until the 1st May next, in order to give time for this Bill to be passed. It is simply a measure of consolidation, and it is hoped that every facility will be given for its passing. I may take this opportunity of saying with how much satisfaction I have observed that the Government have stated in another place their intention of appointing a Select

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  Committee to deal with any further Consolidation Bill with a view to the new edition of the Revised Statutes, and also that the statement appeared to meet with general approval.
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.