Lords Sitting of 30 June 1890

CLERGY DISCIPLINE (IMMORALITY) BILL.—(No. 134.)
*THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURYMy Lords, I had hoped until lately the a place might be found for a Clergy Discipline Bill, affecting cases of immorality only, and I believed it was right not to lose the least chance of legislating on the subject, partly because the clergy themselves, in their Convocation, as well as other authorities, have long asked for fresh legislation. I, therefore, asked your Lordships to give First Reading to a Bill upon the subject but it is now clear that, through press of business, there is no hope of passing the Bill, nor would it be right, in to present condition of business, to ask for facilities to be given in another place. Tin scope of the Bill, my Lords, is the same as of that which passed your Lordships House upon a former occasion without a Division; but since that time it has had the further advantage of being further revised by some eminent Members of your Lordships' House and other persons with a view to improving it, and meeting objections which have been made to it in this House, upon certain point: of procedure, and also to remove anything which might bear upon any other subject than that of immoral conduct I must say that I greatly regret the opportunity has passed of passing legislation for much-needed reforms; but, for reasons which I hope will commend themselves to your Lordships, it is thought better not to proceed in this House with the Bill at a time when it is certain not to go forward or make any progress in the other House, because that would put your Lordships to the inconvenience, after having road and, I hope, passed the Bill a second time, of having it brought before your Lordships yet a third time. So, by your Lordships' leave, I will move at once to withdraw the Bill. At the same time I am very glad it is in your Lordships' hands, and open to criticism; and, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to state that I hope to bring
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it in at the very earliest opportunity next Session.
Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

CUSTOMS CONSOLIDATION ACT, (1876) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 152.)
Read 1a, and to be printed.
CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
Moved, that the Lord Foxford (E. Limerick) do take the Chair in the absence of the Earl of Morley (The Marquess of Salisbury); agreed to.
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (BOROUGH OF BELFAST BILL.—(No. 91.)
House in Committee (according to order): An Amendment made: The Report thereof to be received To-morrow.
ANGLESEY ASSIZES AND QUARTER SESSIONS BILL.—(No. 125.)
House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment); and to be read 3,a To-morrow.
TRUSTEES APPOINTMENT BILL. (No. 84.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  Bill read 3a (according to order).
  LORD HERSCHELL: My Lords, my attention has been called by my noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack to the fact that some exception has been taken by the Charity Commissioners to the form in which the Bill at present stands, so far as it extends to persons associated together for religious purposes. I propose, in order to meet that objection, to leave out in the first clause, at line 10, the words "or for the promotion of education." It will not affect the substance or framework of the Bill at all.
  Amendment made.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

THE CESSION OF HELIGOLAND.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY,in rising to ask (1.) If Her Majesty's Government will be prepared, in the event of the cession of Heligoland being carried out,

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  to give facilities to such of the natives as may I wish to remain subjects of the British Crown to settle in other portions of the British Empire (2.) whether it be true, as reported in a recent telegram, that the right of fortifying the island is to be subjected to restrictions, said: My Lords, I do not wish to add many remarks to the question which is on the Paper, and, indeed, the second of the questions has been, I think, answered in another place since I gave notice of them; but to the first question I attach rather more importance than the noble Marquess, I think, is inclined to do. When I asked him the other day as to whether the wishes of the people of Heligoland had been at all consulted in reference to this cession of territory, the noble Marquess replied that the pl°biscite was rather alien to the customs of this country. But the cession of territory is also alien to the customs of this country, and I confess I think it a grave matter that we should absolutely hand over a population which seems, as far as we can judge, perfectly loyal to the British Crown, without at least giving them the option of settling in some other parts of Her Majesty's dominions; of course, I mean at the public expense. There is, I believe, a large sum of money of Imperial taxation for which Her Majesty's Government are now endeavouring to find employment; and the consideration might possibly enter among the alternative schemes whether it might not be an advisable method of treatment for that sum to apply it in aiding the Heligolanders to settle elsewhere. I do not know whether they have destined that sum to a different employment; but, whether that be so or not, I do hope that Her Majesty's Government will consider carefully the wishes of these people. They are said to tend only in one direction, and I think it would be a slur upon the diplomacy of the noble Marquess if he found that he had handed over a reluctant population to a foreign sway. My Lords, may I say one more word with regard to the system of putting Questions in this House, which I am obliged to pursue, in order to obtain information in this matter? I have urged upon the noble Marquess very strongly the importance of making a full statement to the House in reference to these negotiations. The
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  Questions I ask are asked in no hostile spirit. They are asked simply for information, and I must say that at this moment we stand greatly in want of it, as to the nature of this Agreement. I am not in the least disposed to impugn it. I have always considered that the person who is in charge of the Foreign Office must necessarily know much more of the considerations which lead him to his policy than can possibly be known to the world outside. But with all that conceded, I think there is something gained by taking Parliament, as far as possible, into your confidence, in a matter of so much importance. I must say that my Questions have elucidated certain points, and the most important of them is this. The noble Marquess's Despatch speaks of the Sultanate of Zanzibar as being part of the consideration which we are to receive for the cession of Heligoland. It is the Sultanate of Zanzibar that is to be received; but we have ascertained that it is not the Sultanate of Zanzibar as we left it when we went out of office in 1886. It is the Sultanate of Zanzibar as partitioned out by the Agreement of October, 1886, after the noble Marquess came into office. Therefore, the Sultanate of Zanzibar is not now as we left it, a group of islands with one principal island, with a long stretch of coast on the mainland opposite to it; it is simply the Island of Zanzibar and the Island of Pemba, without any additional islands and without any of the mainland opposite to that island. Well, that is light thrown on the Agreement; and I am afraid that until the noble Marquess sees his way to promise us either Papers, or to make a fuller statement on the subject, we must persevere, by the tiresome, detailed process of interrogation, in endeavours to obtain information as to the exact nature of the Agreement ho has made.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, I will first answer the Questions of the noble Earl. I am not aware that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has any funds to dispose of for the purpose of setting Heligolanders in various parts of the Empire. I have received no intimation from the island, or from the people, that such a measure would be in conformity

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  with their wishes. I have received no intimation that there is any discontent on their part with what is being done; and I believe that every effort which it is possible to make will be made by the German Government, and that every security will be taken in the Convention for the protection of their interests. We have done our best to ascertain what their wishes were, though not by the method of a pl°biscite, which seems to commend itself so much to the mind of the noble Earl.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: It was the noble Marquess who mentioned the pl°biscite, not I.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: It may, perhaps, have occurred to the noble Earl that a pl°biscite might be an awkward precedent as applied to other parts of the Empire. With respect to the other question, I think the noble Earl is aware that it answers itself—of course, we have never suggested any limitation to the power of the German Government to fortify the island if they please. I quite recognise that the noble Earl and his friends have acted with great consideration in reference to all these affairs, and I am also willing to concede that full information is due to them; but I think it is a rule that has always been observed in the Foreign Office, and a very valuable rule, that discussions should not take place until negotiations of this kind are concluded. We thought it desirable to issue a Despatch for the purpose of stating what our general intentions were; because such matters as these become subjects of discussion and of public comment, and strange and distorted accounts of them are apt to get before the public eye. Undoubtedly, as soon as the Convention is signed it will be our duty to lay it upon the Table; and it will be our duty to introduce a Bill for the purpose of giving effect to its provisions, and of dissipating any doubts there may be as to the power of the Crown in respect to Heligoland. Upon that occasion I will do my best to give all the information to the House I have in my power to communicate, and to explain at length the whole of the motives that have guided our policy. The noble Earl interjected some statements into his comments which I can hardly pass without something of a protest. It is not true that the Sultanate
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  of Zanzibar on the mainland was unimpaired when the noble Earl left office in 1886. Very large slices, indeed, had been taken out of it before that date; and although it is perfectly true that the last Agreement defining the spheres of influence was signed by Lord Iddesleigh about six weeks after he came into office, I do not think that on examination it will be found that any diminution of the prestige or the power of the Sultan of Zanzibar can be laid at our door. When we left office, as far as my impression goes, it was acknowledged that the actual extent of those dominions of the Sultan of Zanzibar was limited to 10 miles stretch of coast. That 10 miles stretch of coast remains with the Sultan of Zanzibar, though he has a tenant for it in the shape of the German Empire, and that tenant, perhaps, stands in relations to him which are more according to the fashion and custom in the Sister Isle than in England. But, as the noble Earl will have noticed, it is agreed that we are to press upon the Sultan of Zanzibar that we are to take the course which I believe is the only sensible plan, that is, to turn this nominal occupation into real dominion, the Sultan taking an equitable consideration for the revenues which he sacrifices. That, however, is a matter for the future. For the present the answer which I have to give to the noble Lord is that I have great hopes that the Convention will be signed in a few days; and as soon as that is done we shall lose no time in laying it on the Table, and introducing a Bill, so as to enable the House to thoroughly discuss all its provisions.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, after what has been stated by the noble Marquess I certainly do not rise to inaugurate a premature discussion upon this important question, further than to say with regard to that answer that we reserve to ourselves full liberty to discuss the question in all its bearings, when the Bill to which he has referred comes before your Lordships' House. The only thing I think I may be allowed to say at present is that I do not think the answer to the first Question put by the noble Earl was perfectly satisfactory. The noble Marquess stated that he has ascertained the opinions of the population, but he did not tell us in what way.

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  He also argued—based rather on the technical ground that this small population with no organisation whatever had made no specific representations to him—that they were satisfied with what was about to be done. I do not think that answer is satisfactory. There is a very strong feeling existing that the population of Heligoland are averse to this cession; and I think it would be well if the noble Marquess, when the Bill is introduced, is able to show that be has really taken every pains to ascertain what the opinion of the population is.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Would the noble Marquess object to state what the means were which he took to ascertain the feeling of the population?
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Obviously they were means of a confidential character, and, therefore, it is not-possible for me to discuss them.
  EAEL GRANVILLE: Confidential with the population, does the noble Marquess mean?
  House adjourned at ten minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.