HL Deb 26 June 1890 vol 346 cc9-21
LORD WEDLOCK

My Lords, in rising to call attention to the present system of buying and registering horses for the Army; and to move for a Return of the number of horses purchased for the Army during the last two years, showing the number obtained from the dealers and of those from the breeders direct, and the places where they were bought; and also the number of horses registered for the Army, I desire to say that I have placed this notice on the Paper, feeling that the subject is of great importance to the country, and one upon which information is much needed. It will be within your Lordships' recollection that three years ago my noble Friend, Lord Ribblesdale, whom I am glad to see in his place, brought forward the subject of horse-breeding in this country in a Debate in which he argued the question most thoroughly and with great ability, and the result of the discussion and of the stir which it created throughout the country generally, was that a Commission was appointed to encourage the breeding of horses in the country, a sum of money being placed at their disposal. That money was spent with the greatest benefit to the country, small though the sum was. When the Government took that step, in my humble judgment they should have gone further, and should have extended the system of buying horses for the Army, so as to place themselves in direct communication with the breeders, and thus give further encouragement to the breeding of horses. About the same time the Army Re mount Committee was appointed, and I would ask my noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for War whether he has any information with regard to that Re-mount Committee. I should like to know how many Members there are on that Committee, what is its cost, what are their duties, and in what way they carry those duties out. As far as I can ascertain, this Committee sits in London, and is in no way in direct contact with the farmers of the country who are breeding horses. It is impossible for them to carry out such a system as I believe ought to be carried out in this country, a system by which they should be in close and immediate contact with those breeders who produce the supply. I venture to suggest that if my noble Friend could point out some way in which this Committee could be broken up from its centre in London, whence it conducts its operations, and could be scattered about through the country, such a system would be productive of a great deal of good. I believe this question has occupied the attention of those who have an interest in the subject for many years past. I find in the evidence given before the Royal Commission which sat upon this subject in 1873, Mr. East, whose intimate knowledge of it is well known to your Lordships, summarised his views in a manner which certainly commends itself to me, and I should like to call your Lordships' attention to them. The first of the three recommendations he put forward, was to the effect that we must obtain our troopers direct from the breeders, and he said that in that way we should acquire a knowledge of the resources of the country. Then he went on to say that the present prices are sufficient if only the breeder were dealt with directly, for the Consequence of that would be that the price would be raised to the breeder; that it is only owing to our present defective system of buying that we cannot properly find what is required and that we should be still worse off in a time of emergency. This evidence, applicable as it was in 1873, is, I think, quite applicable to the present state of affairs. My Lords, I do not believe, as far as I can ascertain, that this Committee is in proper touch or communication, as it should be, with all breeders of horses in this country, and I should, therefore, like to see some such system established as this which was shadowed out by Mr. East as long ago as 1873. In the Debate which took place on the occasion I mentioned three years ago, the illustrious Duke who is Commander-in-Chief of the British Army made some remarks upon the subject; and I will call your Lordships' attention to one particular sentence which he then made use of— It is most essential, therefore, for all purposes that the breed of horses should be encouraged, for English horses are the best in the world, and more encouragement to the farmer would be beneficial, not only from a military point of view, but for the general public. If I may venture to say so, I fully endorse all that the illustrious Duke said upon that occasion. I believe that if these gentlemen could be placed in direct communication with the breeders a great advantage would follow. I do not believe that the Committee is in proper communication with the breeders of horses, and I believe this more direct communication with the breeders would entail no increased expense on the country; on the contrary, I maintain that the extra sum which is now lost to the breeder, and which passes into the pocket of the middleman, would be saved, or better applied. I should like my noble Friend to tell me, if he can, what the advantage of the present system is over the old one. Under the old system the colonels of the regiments obtained re-mounts through dealers at prices varying from £40 for the light cavalry, and £42 for the heavy cavalry, to £45 for the artillery. In fact, the same system is carried out in this country of purchasing all horses through dealers. We have precisely the same system of purchase going on, plus the expense of this Re-mount Committee. That is a system which I believe to be very unsatisfactory. I desire to exclude from the scope of my observations upon that point the system which is carried out in Ireland. Colonel Drew, who is the only official connected with these matters in Ireland, I believe, does all he possibly can to place himself in direct communication with the breeders of horses there, but it is, of course, impossible for him to see them all, and, therefore, ho has, to some extent, to trust to dealers. I should like to see the whole of the country parcelled out into districts, and official buyers appointed in those districts, who should be in every day communication with those persons who breed horses. The third point upon which I desire to ask my noble Friend for information is with regard to registration. Here I must confess I am in a difficulty, because I can get very little information upon the subject. The only things which I have been able to find out are the Returns which were published by my noble Friend Lord Harris, who has now gone to Bombay. In talking of the registration of horses, he mentioned the fact that 14,000 horses were registered at an expense to the country of 10s. for each animal; but, if my information is correct, by far the greater number of those horses so registered for the purpose of being taken up by the Government in case of a sudden emergency are in the hands of Tramway or Omnibus Companies. I am told that those companies simply receive the payment of 10s. a year, which would amount to say £50 in the case of a company owning 100 horses, but no price is specified to be paid by the Government for the animals, on taking them over, should occasion arise, and I can quite understand that if any sudden call had to be made upon those companies they would naturally say that, as giving up their horses would cause an entire suspension and disorganisation of their business, the Government must expect to have to pay a very large sum indeed for them. I do not know whether that is correct, but, perhaps, my noble Friend will enlighten me on the subject. Tour Lordships, of course, can quite understand that big companies would not like to place themselves in that position, and I believe that if such a system as I have mentioned Could be carried out it is quite possible for the various officials who would be acting in districts all over the country to register in their districts horses whose owners would be ready to give them up to the Government, at any time they might be required, for the sum of £40. In that case, at all events, we should not have to pay such very large sums as at present we possibly might have to pay to Tramway and Omnibus Companies, and the whole matter would be carried out much more economically, and upon a much more correct basis, because not only would the Government be able to place their hands upon those horses, at the price I have mentioned, £40, but they would be able, through their officials, to satisfy themselves of the condition of horse breeding in this country, so that they would know upon what supply they could depend throughout the Country. There is this great point to be considered: service-horses are not like wheat or potatoes that you can get them when ever yon want them. It takes a long time to get a horse for service In this country, and, therefore, the country ought to look upon this matter in rather a different light to that in which ordinary subjects of commerce are regarded in reference to demand and supply. I hope, therefore, that in noble Friend will be able to satisfy your Lordship's that some such system will be considered, and, if possible, set on foot, as I have' ventured to point out. I am perfectly certain that if something of the kind is done it will impart greater energy to breeders throughout the country, and the subject of the purchase of service-horses will be placed 'in a much sounder position than I believe it to be at present.

THE EARL OF DUNDONALD

My Lords, I think the noble Lord who has introduced this subject has dealt With it rather from the breeders' and farmers point of view. But there is also another point of view from which it' may be regarded, that is the taxpayers', and I think the Government are perfectly justified in placing the hard-headed practical middleman between the purse of the nation and the pockets of the farmers. Many of your Lordships, no doubt, have tried to purchase horses on your own account, and I Suppose are quite as Capable of judging of the merits of a horse as the officials who would probably be appointed under the system which has been sketched out by the noble Lord; but I have no doubt you found that you were obliged to give up trying yourselves to purchase, and that you would do far better to employ a respectable dealer. If one can judge of the working of a scheme by its results, all I can say is that here the result has been most satisfactory. The horses now supplied to the cavalry are, at any rate, as good as they have ever been, and I believe if your Lordships could s e some of the re-mounts which have been recently supplied to the cavalry regiments, you would say you had never seen a better looking lot of young horses. There is only one other point which I should like to touch upon in this connection, and that is, with regard to the purchase of foreign horses. I should like to ask the noble Earl to state, when he replies, whether the Government are purchasing re-mounts from abroad. If this is the case, I certainly think the Government are not acting properly in doing so, because that would not be carrying out the statement made by the Secretary of State for War, about a year ago in another place, that warlike material would be purchased as far as possible in this country, and I consider that the supply of re-mounts comes within the scope of that assurance. With regard to what has been said about the registration of horses, I hope we shall have a satisfactory reply from the noble Lord, but there is one circumstance which has come under my notice, and which, I think, your Lordships might like to hear. I have been told of cases' in which masters of hounds have supported the system of registration in a most patriotic manner. One master of hounds, on being applied to, at Once registered 20 horses, though there was not a single horse in his stable which had cost less than £150. Thus, in time of war, he would be obliged to give up to the Government, for£60 or £70, horses which had cost £150. I think, my Lords, this is true patriotism, and if the noble Lord grants this Return, I hope it may be found possible to state the names of those Masters of Hounds who have come forward so generously.

*LORD BELPER

My Lords, before the noble Lord rises to answer the question be has been asked I should also like to ask him whether he can state the number of horses which are bought out of the Yeomanry. A year or two ago it was the custom to send down officers to look at the horses of the Yeomanry, and, of course, there should have been a good opportunity there for the Government to buy; but, I am sorry to say, that in the district with which I am principally concerned no horses were ever sold to the Government. Whether or not they offered a sufficient price, in some instances, I am not aware, but I know there are other conditions made which prevented horses otherwise perfectly fit being bought for Government purposes I believe it was an invariable rule that no docked horse would be bought by the Government. Therefore, the question I should like to ask is, whether the Government now buy docked horses from dealers, though in former times their officials used always to refuse to buy such horses when shown them in Yeomanry Regiments. If any arrangement could be made for the purpose it would be a considerable assistance to Yeomen if they could find a sale for a horse at an ordinary price for Government purposes. As a matter of fact, that has not been the case, and they have been rather handicapped in that regard in comparison with the dealers, because I understand that horses which have been offered for sale in May or June in the Yeomanry Regiments would be refused. They would not be bought for the Government, because they were not old enough, and yet they would be bought from dealers three or four months later at whatever the price might be which was given for them. The Yeomanry have received no benefit from the system which has been initiated, and, as a matter of fact, the Yeomanry horses are not even now looked at. I should like to ask the noble Lord whether he can inform your Lordships how many horses have been bought out of the Yeomanry within the past few years.

*THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Earl BROWNLOW)

My Lords, I think it is necessary for me to say that it is of great value to the War Department to have free expressions of opinion from those who, like the noble Lord opposite who has asked for this Return, live in the horse-breeding counties of England, and who take a great interest in the breeding of horses, and the purpose for which horses are bred. Upon this important matter of re-mounts, the opinions which the noble Lords who have spoken have expressed, cannot but have considerable weight. The Return asked for by the noble Lord really, I may say, embraces two Returns, one on the subject of re-mounts, the other on the subject of the registration of horses. Those, of course, are very different subjects. With regard to the question of buying re-mounts for the cavalry, your Lordships will understand the horses required are young horses which can be trained for cavalry purposes. On the other hand, the horses required for registration are seasoned horses, already broken, which can be made available for cavalry purposes after a short training, or for purposes of draught immediately. Then as regards the machinery now at work, there is one purchaser who conducts the purchasing and registration in Ireland, and two purchasers who perform the same duties in Great Britain. All the horses purchased for remounts are seen by the Inspector-General, and are passed by him before they are sent out. I must remind the noble Lords who have spoken that it is impossible for the Department to give an unlimited power of purchasing horses; there are only a certain number required, and horses can only be bought as vacancies occur in the regiments. The total number allowed in the Estimates cannot be exceeded. To give the noble Lord the number of horses purchased in the last two financial years. I may state that in 1888 there were 1,427 horses purchased, and in 1889 the number was 1,734. The number purchased from breeders was small as compared with the number purchased from dealers; but in the latter year it considerably exceeded the number purchased from breeders in the former year, and also bore a larger proportion to the number purchased from dealers in former years. That gives us hope that the Committee of Remounts is not so entirely out of touch with the breeders, and that as the number of horses purchased from them in those two years has increased it may go on increasing, until the num- ber so purchased is much greater than it is now. I will now pass to the question of the experiment that was tried for utilising the Yeomanry for the purpose of purchasing re-mounts. The numbers are these: in 1887 four regiments were visited and only four horses were bought; in 1888 the whole of the 39 regiments of Yeomanry were visited and only seven horses were taken; in 1889 there were 22 regiments which specially notified that horses were offered for sale, but of those only four were passed into the Service. My Lords, I am afraid when we take those figures and consider them they are not very encouraging. I am bound to tell the House that this experiment, though we have always tried to encourage the Yeomanry to come forward and sell their horses, has been an entire failure; and I am much afraid that it is no use to go on with it. I would further state that the price of this very small number of horses so bought was very large owing to the expenses of travelling in sending down officers to see them. Then my noble Friend said he would like to see permanent purchasers established in districts throughout different parts of England for the purpose of purchasing horses. That, no doubt, would be exceedingly expensive. But what has been done is this. I mention it, as I do not think it is generally known. The Adjutants and Permanent Staff of the Yeomanry have instructions to inform the Remount Department what horses there are in their districts which are fit for re-mounts. Then farmers Laving horses to sell have only to inform the Yeomanry Adjutant; that is reported; the owners are communicated with and purchasing officers are sent down to see them and to buy those found to be suitable for cavalry purposes. The process is very simple; a farmer having a horse to sell in any part of the country has only to go to the nearest Yeomanry Adjutant and fill up a form stating the size, age, colour and other matters with regard to the horse, and if the animal appears likely to be suitable for cavalry purposes an officer will be sent down. Then if the horse is found suitable he will be purchased. I do not think this arrangement is generally known among farmers; perhaps if it was they would take more advantage of it. Now, I will pass on to the other question of registration. As I said before, horses which are registered are required to be of a different stamp to those which are purchased for re-mounts. We want for registration horses fit for immediate use. A horse to be registered must be broken and ready to go to work at once. My noble Friend has asked whether those horses are not chiefly registered by Omnibus Companies and Tram Companies. A good many are registered by companies of that kind, and a good many are registered by Railway Companies, and people such as carriers and others who employ large numbers of horses register them. The result has been that there are 14,000 horses now registered. Of those 14,000, 3,241 are fit for riding, and 10,759 are fit for draught purposes. There is no reason to suppose that a great many more horses could not be put on the register if they were required I may now state that my noble Friend is quite in error in supposing that no price is fixed for those horses if they are wanted. The price is carefully fixed from year to year, and the animals themselves are most carefully inspected by the Re-mount Department. My Lords, I cannot leave this subject without saying that I feel that the thanks of the War Department and of the country are due to those Masters of Hounds who have come forward in a most liberal and patriotic spirit and recognised the fact that the greatest, perhaps, of our national sports ought, in time of emergency, to give assistance in supplying the wants of the National Army, and have placed in the most patriotic manner their hunt horses at the disposal of the Government by registration. The noble Lord did not move for a Return, I think, when he was speaking, but I suppose he wishes for the return he has stated on the Notice Paper. I can only say that Her Majesty's Government will be happy to lay the Return he wishes for upon the Table of the House, and there I hope he will find all the information he requires.

THE EARL OF CORK

My Lords, I am very glad my noble Friend has called the attention of the House to this question, and I must say I hardly think the reply which has been given by the Under Secretary for War is satisfactory. The noble Lord has evidently tried to shift the blame from the shoulders of the Yeomanry to the shoulders of the Inspecting Officers sent down to examine by Her Majesty's Government. In the County of Somerset I know that when the Inspecting Officer came down to inspect horses a good many were shown him; but immediately one-was brought out with a docked tail it was sent back into the ranks, and the owner was told that it was quite useless. Any noble Lord in the House who has had experience of the Yeomanry must be convinced of the vast improvement that has taken place in the quality of their mounts; and I must say that in the Counties of Somerset and Wilts a good mount, such as would be ridden by a farmer there, would certainly realise a far larger sum than £40, which is all, I believe, that Her Majesty's Government are prepared to give. There are some very good horses in the hands of the farmers. Therefore, I think the Government can hardly expect to get good re-mounts from Yeomanry regiments, unless they are prepared to give a better price. I will go further, and say also that the present method of buying horses for the Army is not a very great improvement on the old system. You still have to go to the dealers. The dealer is a man who knows what a horse is, and he can deal with a farmer in a way which no gentleman can possibly adopt. He understands the art of dealing with the farmers. We must also remember that in purchasing for the Army the dealer has this advantage. He has to buy not only one horse but two or three from the same owner, and therefore he very often gets a horse at a moderate price by taking three or four other horses at the same time. I know that is frequently the case, and in Ireland particularly, where dealers who have purchased several horses together often get a horse fit for the Army at a better price on that account. Therefore, I think the present system' is merely a variation of the old method. Instead of the Colonel of a regiment dealing direct with a dealer, one officer in Ireland called a purchaser, and two in England, are really doing the very same thing as was done in former days. Then in regard to the registration of horses. I know a good many people who think it is a capital thing to get 10s. a year for registering a horse. It is a nice sum for a job master or omni bus proprietor who is owner of, say, a 100 horses, to get—in that case there would be £50 a year for him. But no price is fixed for them, so that when the1 time comes when those horses will fee required what a very awkward position the Government will find themselves in!

*EARL BROWNLOW

I beg the noble Lord's pardon, the price is fixed most carefully.

THE EARL OF CORK

I apologise to my noble Friend as that is the case. I quite agree with what the noble Lord has said as to the gallant way in which Masters Of Hounds have behaved in the matter; but I think at the same time it is a very expensive way of doing this, that is to say paying 10s. a year. Where there is a price given those very horses will be brought forward and placed at the Government service, though no such price may have been put upon them on former occasions. I am very glad this question has' been brought forward, and I am sure the whole country takes great interest in it. The breeding of horses has vastly improved in this country, and a far better horse is now being produced than was the case some years ago. I only hope that even more encouragement will be given in future to the breeding of horses than has been given in recent years, and I think that the sum placed in the hands of the Commissioners for this purpose ought to be increased. I think more good could be done if a larger sum were given.

A noble LORD: My Lords, I can fully bear out that the horses in Yeomanry regiments were always sent back if the horses were docked. I think it would be beneficial if we could have some assurance from the noble Lord as to whether, in future, docked horses would be taken for Cavalry re-mounts. I think such an intimation would be satisfactory to all of us.

*EARL BROWNLOW

I cannot give a reply to that off-hand; but I shall be happy to make inquiries and answer it, if possible, in due time.

*LORD HARLECH

As an old Cavalry officer I must express my opinion that it is a very great mistake ever to buy a horse for the Cavalry with a docked tail. Our cavalry may be required to go at any time to a hot climate, and a horse with a docked tail is only half a horse. The want of a tail causes more suffering to the animals than can be conceived, from the inability to brush away flies, and it ought, I think, to be thoroughly well-known throughout the country that the cavalry do not admit docked tails. If that were known there would be no efforts made to pass horses of that kind into the cavalry. Owners of such horses would know what was before them, and if they aspired to breed horses for the cavalry they would not dock them.

LORD WENLOCK

My Lords, with the indulgence of the House I will now move formally for the Return mentioned in the notice. With regard to the remarks made by my noble Friend, it seems there is great difficulty placed in the way of farmers selling their horses to Government. I can quite understand that the expense of officers going down from London would be very great if the War Office are going to get the Yeomanry Adjutants, say in Northumberland, to inform the Department in London of the number of horses in their district. With regard to docked horses, I may state that Colonel Drew told me that in Ireland at the horse fairs he had found himself in competition with the Dutch Government, who had no hesitation in buying docked horses, while he lost a good many valuable horses simply because they were docked. And not only did the Dutch Government buy docked horses, but they at once docked all the undocked horses they bought. I do not know that my noble Friend, Lord Harlech, is right with regard to our cavalry horses being sent to hot climates. When the cavalry are sent to Egypt they have Egyptian horses, and in India they have Indian horses assigned to them. Therefore, I think it is possible to buy docked horses and show better results than we are getting now. I will not detain your Lordships with any further remarks in regard to our present system of buying and registering horses for the Army.

Moved, That an humble address be presented to Her Majesty for a Return of the number of horses purchased for the Army during the last two years, showing the number obtained from the dealers, and of those from the breeders direct, and the places where they were bought; and also the number of horses registered for the Army."—(The Lord Wenlock.)

On Question, agreed to.

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