Lords Sitting of 31 July 1890

BANKRUPTCY BILL.—(No. 188.)
Reported from the Standing Committee for Bills relating to Law, &c, with Amendments: The Report thereof received; Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 237.)
CHILDREN'S LIFE INSURANCE BILL. (No. 97.)
Message from the Commons for Report, &c., of the Select Committee of this House: Ordered to be communicated accordingly.
METROPOLITAN HOSPITALS, &c.
Report from the Select Committee (with the Proceedings of the Committee and Appendix), made and to be printed (No. 238): Minutes of Evidence laid upon the Table, and to be delivered out.
TENANTS COMPENSATION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow: (The Lord Harlech.) (No. 240.)

LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILLS.
THE EARL OF LIMERICK: My Lords, my noble Friend the Earl of Jersey, who is unable to be present, has requested me to move the Resolution which stands in his name. I am, of course, not so well acquainted as my noble Friend with the circumstances which have conduced to the late introduction of these Bills, and, therefore, I hope my noble Friend the Chairman of Committees is not prepared to oppose the Motion very strongly. The delay, I believe, is due to the exceptionally heavy nature of these Provisional Orders, of which there have been nine, coming on this year for the first time. They have had to be prepared concurrently with 58 other Provisional Orders of various sorts between March and the end of May, and consequently a great deal of work had
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to be done, and pressure has arisen in consequence. I hope that, as the circumstances are exceptional this year, my noble Friend will not object to the Motion which I make as regards these Bills which appears on the Notice Paper.
Moved,
"That the Sessional Order of the 10th of March last, 'That no Bill brought from the House of Commons confirming any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate shall be read a second time after Friday the 27th day of June next,' be dispensed with, and that the Bills be read 2a."—(The Earl of Limerick.)
THE EARL OF MORLEY: My Lords, I really think that the Public Offices have been rather later than usual this year in introducing the various matters which they had to bring before your Lordships. The present five Bills I think it is impossible for me to pass, and I think I should be neglecting my duty if I did so without saying a few words. As your Lordships are aware, a Sessional Order was made that no Bills should be received here after the 27th of June. These five Bills were introduced into the House of Commons, one on the 5th June, one on the 9th June, two on the 10th June, and one, the most important of all, on the 11th June. It was absolutely impossible for the three last-named Bills to have got through the House of Commons in time to have complied with the Sessional Order of your Lordships' House. All these Bills, with one exception, I think, refer to the subject of borough extension, and that is a class of business which has only recently been thrown on the Local Government Board. That is, I believe, the only excuse which can be offered for the lateness of these Bills coming to this House; but I would point out this, that it is not fair for the offices to throw the responsibility on your Lordships' House at the last moment of not passing the Bills. It is simply because there is not time to discuss them adequately. One of them I am told is now opposed, and at this time of the Session it is no easy matter to get a Committee to consider such an important matter, for instance, as the Manchester City Extension. I thought it right to say these few words to show that it is no mere red tapeism that induces me to oppose the introduction of Bills at so late a period, but because I do

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not think at this time of the Session Bills, and especially opposed Bills, can be adequately and carefully considered. With those words I shall not oppose the Motion of my noble Friend, but I hope he will impress upon those whom he represents the importance of being earlier in the introduction of their Bills in other years.
On Question, agreed to.

STATUTE LAW REVISION (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 230.)
House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without Amendment: Then Standing Order No. XXXIX. considered (according to order) and dispensed with: Bill read 3"; Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
COMPANIES (WINDING UP) BILL.— (No. 229.)
Amendments reported (according to order); and Bill to be read 3a on Tuesday next.
PHYSICAL EDUCATION IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS BILL.—(No. 190.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Beading read.
  THE EARL OF MEATH: My Lords, having already addressed your Lordships twice at some length on the subject of the introduction of physical education into elementary schools, I do not intend to occupy your Lordships' time to-day by recapitulating any of the statistics which I brought forward upon the former occasions, or in going over the arguments which I then adduced in support of my proposal. A very interesting-article has appeared in the Fortnightly Review lately upon the subject of physical education. I might, perhaps, be permitted to strengthen the argument which I brought forward on a former occasion by quoting to your Lordships here a few statistics which were brought forward in that Review. In this article which was written by Mr. Gattie in the Fortnightly Review of April, 1890, he says—
  "That while the average weight of British recruits finally approved for Service is only 9 stone 0·2 pounds, their average height being 5 feet 5·8 inches; the German recruits examined by Dr. Fetzer. in 1877, with an average The Earl of Morley
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  height of 5 feet 5·75 inches, had an average weight of no less than 10 stone 3·3 pounds."
  That is to say, the German soldiers were heavier than the British soldiers by 1 stone 3 pounds. I know it is a very difficult thing to prove anything from such statistics as these, because there are a great number of circumstances which have to be considered. It is very difficult indeed to get all the circumstances alike, but in this same Review it goes on to say that a certain number of British soldiers were brought up to the Oxford Gymnasium for the purpose of seeing what physical difference would be made in them if they were put through a course of gymnastics. Mr. Maclaren, of the Oxford Gymnasium, has given some valuable statistics of the measurements and weights of this detachment of noncommissioned officers who were sent to him to be qualified as military gymnastics instructors.
  "The men ranged in age from 19 to 28 years, in height from five feet five inches to five feet 11½ inches, and in weight from nine stone two pounds to 12 stone six pounds, so that various types were represented. After less than eight months' training, they were found to have gained, on the average, 10 pounds in weight, 2⅞ inches in girth of chest, ¾ inch in the size of the fore-arm, and 1¼ inches in that of the upper arm, while there was in every case a slight increase of height."
  A very curious circumstance happened in connection with that. Before the fourth month was out several of the men could not get into their jackets and tunics without assistance, and when they had got them on they could not make them meet down the middle by a hand's breadth. In another month they could not get into them at all, and were obliged to go to and from the gymnasium in their great-coats until new clothing could be procured. That, I think, is an extraordinary proof of the difference produced by gymnastic training of the human frame in a very short space of time. Now the Bill which I have introduced into your Lordships' House practically consists of one clause. The clause is as follows:—
  "1. The school authority for every elementary school in any populous town shall make fit and proper provision to the satisfaction of the inspector for the instruction and practice of all scholars of both sexes in physical education and exercises connected therewith and no school or department of a school shall receive the higher of the two principal grants under section one hundred and one of the new code of

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  regulations issued by the Education Department during the present Session of Parliament or under any other code for the time being in force, unless the requisition of this section be complied with to the satisfaction of the inspector as aforesaid."
  That is to say, no school can receive the grant of 14s., unless physical education is carried out to the satisfaction of the Inspector. Your Lordships are aware that it is in the power of the Inspector to give a grant of either 12s. 6d. or 14s. Consequently it will be to the interest of each school that physical exercise shall be carried out. I desire to do this because at present, although a very great improvement has been brought about by the Government by the introduction of their new Education Code, it is still left to the discretion of the managers and of the School Boards to decide whether physical education shall be carried out or not, and there is no inducement to carry out this physical education because there is no money gained by it. Consequently, as a matter of fact, in those schools where there is not any very enlightened opinion upon the subject, or no very great desire to carry out physical instruction, it will be put in the back ground. By this clause there will be an inducement to the Local Authorities to permit physical education to be carried out. Your Lordships will notice that I have not in this Bill laid down any hard and fast rule as to what physical instruction is to be carried out, because I believe it is very much better that the school authorities should decide that question themselves, and that no particular system of gymnastics should be laid down by the central authorities as necessary. A society has been established within the last few years for the purpose of trying to get physical education brought into our elementary schools, and a meeting of this society was held not very long ago in which certain suggestions were made, and I think it may be of interest if I refer to them. It was suggested by this Physical Education Recreation Society that any system of education in which mental training is excessive, and bodily training neglected is injurious, not conducive to the health, strength, usefulness, and happiness of the people, and dangerous to the welfare and safety of the nation; that one half hour daily, if possible, after dinner or in the afternoon, should be devoted to
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  bodily training; that the bodily training for boys under eight should consist of marching, either with or without music, and that the bodily training for boys over 11 should consist of marching, exercises with dumb bells, and so on; for the older boys there should be exercises on dumb bells, Indian clubs, horizontal and parallel bars with or without music; and that boys and girls should be taught swimming where practicable. I think that is a most important thing, and I hope Her Majesty's Government will see their way next year, at all events, to permit swimming to be included in the compulsory subjects. The Physical Education Recreation Society also suggested that the bodily training of girls should comprise marching and figure marching, exercises with dumb bells and light Indian clubs, either with or without music. They also suggest that children who are considered by medical men to be too weak should be exempted from the instruction. This is also, of course, important, because we know there are a certain number of children, especially in the poorer parts of the towns, who are so badly fed that it would be a cruelty to subject them to physical exercises. The next suggestion is very important; it is that the cost of gymnastic training should be paid one-half by the Government and the other half out of the rates. Then it is suggested that the exercises should take place in the open air in fine weather, and in bad weather within the schools, the desks and benches, where not fixed to the floor, being removed to the other end of the room. Now, a good deal has been said about the expense of this, and many who discussed this question were of opinion that it is not necessary to erect gymnasia; that the ordinary schoolrooms are quite sufficient for the purpose of carrying out the exercises by the removal of desks and benches. It was also suggested that the measurements of chests, arms, and legs of those children who undergo physicial training should be registered annually, and that there should be proper teachers, who have been instructed in training colleges, to teach the children suitable exercises. In drawing up this Bill I have had the advantage of the advice of a gentleman who is at the head of the Physical Education Department of the

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  London School Board. Your Lordships will notice that this Bill does not apply to the country, it only applies to the towns having populations of over 15,000. I may mention that I have received letters congratulating me upon the introduction of this Bill, from both Chairman and Vice Chairman of the London School Board. The Chairman, in his letter to me, remarks—
  "It is noticeable that the educational efficiency of the schools in other respects rapidly advanced concurrently with the increased attention paid to physical exercises."
  That is an argument which I have, on former occasions, brought forward, and I am very glad to find that the Chairman of the London School Board corroborates what I have said upon that matter, that mental activity is increased in as great a proportion as physical training and exercises are introduced, if they are not too much prolonged in elementary schools. Of course, I know it is too late this year for this Bill to pass, but I bring it forward simply for the purpose of keeping this (Subject well before the public and well before your Lordships, and I hope that the Government will not be content with what they have already done in this direction. I thank them most heartily and sincerely for what they have done, but I hope they will go on and make our system of physical education still more perfect.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2"—(The Lord Chaworth [E. Meath.])
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS): My Lords, I have to apologise for the absence of my noble Friend the Lord President of the Council, who has been called away on public business, and, that being so, it falls upon me to answer the noble Lord who has just sat down. I do so with considerable pleasure, because I happened to preside over the Education Committee which sat for many years, and which thoroughly considered the interesting question now brought forward by the noble Earl. I heartily sympathise with the noble Earl in his desire to see the physical education of children in our Elementary Schools, and I certainly must remark that no one has done more in carrying on this good work than the noble Earl himself. While, however, I have very great pleasure in paying this
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  tribute to the noble Earl, and in recognising his anxiety in the matter, as shown by the introduction of this Bill, I am afraid I shall have to ask him to consider one or two things, and eventually whether he will not consent to withdraw the Bill for this year, at all events. In the first place, at this late period of the Session, it is absolutely impossible that it should become law, though it was quite right it should be brought forward for discussion. I would also remind him that the Government have this year taken a large step in advance in this particular direction. In the Code they have introduced they have not only made provision that physical exercises may be taught, but that they may be taught during the consecutive hours of school instruction; and the result is that, although no grant is directly made for instruction in physical exercises, yet a grant is indirectly made, inasmuch as the physical training is given during the time of the average attendance on which the grant is calculated. So that I think the noble Lord will admit that the Government have gone aconsiderable way this year in the direction he desires us to go. There is one more consideration which I would press on the noble Earl's attention. If this Bill were carried a considerable expense would undoubtedly be thrown on all the schools, and I see no special provision in the Bill for meeting that expenditure. The result would be that if the Bill became law the School Boards would simply have to add a penny or a halfpenny to the rate in order to carry out its provisions, while the voluntary schools would be entirely left out in the cold. I do not think that would be fair to the voluntary schools, and while I deeply sympathise with the object the noble Earl has in view, I trust he will perceive that there are still difficulties to be dealt with before a Bill of this character can be passed. I will only add that I hope the noble Earl will be content with the great step which has been already made by the provision in the Code which I have mentioned, and that he will not press the Bill to a Second Reading.
  LORD NORTON: My Lords, I should like to say a few words before this Bill passes away. It is now a certainty that the Bill cannot be proceeded with this Session. Still, the introduction of the measure will more or less have an in-

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  fluence on what may pass on the subject next Session. After what has just fallen from the noble Viscount, I would ask the noble Earl to consider whether he might not make his proposal on a future occasion in a much more effective way. We all agree that physical education would be very useful in our elementary schools —much more useful, indeed, than some of the subjects now attempted but not really taught in them. But I cannot help thinking that to provide that no schools shall receive the higher grants unless they have gymnastic practice and apparatus is rather a strange way of putting it. It seems to me somewhat ludicrous to propose in an Act of Parliament that schools shall go without grants for specific subjects unless they have gymnastic apparatus. That seems to me to be a rather inconsequent proposition. The recommendation of the Royal Commission was generally that physical training should be part of the process of instruction in our elementary schools. That is a general proposition, and if we get out of the vicious principle of attaching grants to particular subjects, and give to every elementary school a sufficient subsidy from the Treasury to do its full work of all kinds, physical instruction might and would be introduced into every school. So long as we go on the principle of attaching grants to particular items of instruction such a proposition as this, that schools are to go without grants for special subjects unless they teach something totally different, is absurd. I hope that the noble Earl will re-introduce the Bill in a different form next Session, and will propose that sufficient subsidy being given to Elementary Schools for all purposes, physical instruction, as recommended by the Royal Commission, should invariably be one of the subjects introduced into such schools.
  THE EARL OF MEATH: The noble Lord who answered me and the noble Lord who spoke afterwards have both fallen into this error: they both imagine that it is necessary to have apparatus in the schools in order to teach physical exercises. Now, the London School Board have instituted physical exercises to a very large extent, and although they have a certain amount of apparatus out of doors, they have not used that for the purpose of this instruction. The in-
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  struction is given in free exercises; what is called Swedish drill or musical drill, and is really much more effective for general purposes than any system carried out with apparatus. Consequently, the argument of the noble Lord (Viscount Cross) falls to the ground with regard to expense, because the whole of this work which has been carried out in London has been carried out almost entirely by a grant made by an Association with which I am connected, of £400. My Lords, I withdraw the Bill.
  Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  CUSTOMS CONSOLIDATION ACT, 1876, AMENDMENT BILL.— (No. 152.)
  House in Committee (on Re-commitment) (acoording to order); Bill reported without further amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.
  SHREWSBURY AND HOLYHEAD ROAD (ANGLESEY AND CARNARVON) BILL. (No. 210.)
  House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (BLIND AND DEAF) BILL.—(No. 155.)
  Amendment reported (according to order); and Bill to be read 3"Tomorrow.
HISTORICAL MANUSCRIPT COMMISSION—REPORTS.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government whether the Reports of the Historical Manuscript Commissioners which are out of print can be re-printed; and, if so, whether orders will be given to have this done, said: My Lords, early this Session, your Lordships, on the Motion of my noble Friend who is not present this evening (Lord Beauchamp), passed a Resolution authorising an index to be made of the Reports of the Historical Manuscript Commissioners. A very great deal of interest, whether evoked by the noble Lord's question or not I do not know, has been taken in these documents, and it turns out that some of the

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  Reports published at an earlier date are out of print. I do not know whether this is to be attributed to the neglect of the Commissioners that they should have allowed valuable Government documents to go out of print or not, but I certainly cannot exonerate them from blame in the matter. These Reports become, of course, of great historical value, and are very much sought after in public libraries; and the extension of the Free Libraries Act has created a considerable demand for such papers for reference. The object of my question is to ascertain from Her Majesty's Government whether they will consent to have the Reports, I believe five in number, which are out of print, re-printed for the benefit of those who may apply for them. I should not think the expense would be very great, and certainly in dealing with matters of historical interest it would be of great advautage to have the whole series get-at-able, so that the public can procure them. I beg to ask the question which stands in my name.
  LORD DE RAMSEY: My Lords, in all there are 40 reports of the Historical MSS. Commissioners which have been issued, and of those, seven are practically out of print. Theestimated cost of re-printing those Reports would be £120 each, or £840 in all. If 500 copies of each Report were printed and sold, in accordance with the ordinary practice as to Parliamentary Papers, at the original prices, the Stationery Office could only recover £560 of that amount, even in the highly improbable event of every copy being sold. As the re-printing of the Reports in question could not be carried out without loss to the Exchequer, the Government do not propose to sanction such re-printing.

NATIONAL COMPETITION OF SCHOOLS OF ART.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD SANDHURST: In rising to call attention to the National Competition of Schools of Art under the Science and Art Department, and to ask the Lord President whether he can furnish any information as to the numbers entered for competition in each of the last five years, the different localities sending up competitors, and the comparative The Marquess of Huntly
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  quality of the works submitted to the Examiners, said: My Lords, I have been anxiously waiting for the arrival of the noble Lord (Earl Spencer) in whose name this question appears on the paper, but as it was uncertain whether he would be able to attend to-day, ho has asked me to put the question for him, in reference to Technical Education and the system now pursued. It is beyond doubt that the subject of technical education is one of extreme interest, and of great importance, and it is to that that many of our manufacturers look for success in the future in their competition with the manufacturers of other countries. In asking for information as to what opportunities are given to competitors, and what improvement there has been made in this direction, it is as well, perhaps, to examine a little into what has been done in this respect in the country already. Great efforts have been made during the last 30 years to this end. A great Central Museum and School of Art has been established, where every description and form of modelling is to be found, including a gallery of art, where every description of art can be studied. Facilities have also been given to different localities where the various art trades are followed. In addition to the normal school in London, opportunities have been given for obtaining certificates by intending teachers in art schools, which have been founded by the munificence of private individuals, or by the energy of Municipal Councils. The object of this question is to draw attention to an exhibition now being held at South Kensington, which includes exhibits from the provinces and towns throughout the country; for instance, exhibits from the large schools of Manchester, Glasgow, Birmingham, Leicester, and others, from which really very beautiful designs have come. It also includes, I may say, New South Wales, which is prominent for designs and architecture. In drawing attention to this exhibition, I should like to ask the noble Viscount whether, in the opinion of those who are best qualified to form an opinion, a real advance has been made; whether this exhibition may be looked upon as a satisfactory test; and also whether we are getting value for the money expended for this purpose?
  VISCOUNT CROSS: My Lords, in the absence of my noble Friend, the Lord President, I will give such information as he has received upon this point from the Science and Art Department. With your Lordships' permission, I will give a few figures, as they not very numerous. Up to 1887 all the works done in schools of art and art classes were sent to South Kensington for payment on results, and in that year the number of them reached 800,000, so it has been found necessary to exclude for the future those of a very slight or elementary nature, as it has become physically impossible to deal with that vast number in the limited space available in the existing buildings. Since then only works of the more finished or advanced kind have been sent up. At the time that restriction came into force the schools were receiving compensation in the way of payments on the third grade examinations held all over the country, which hitherto had been confined to South Kensington, and also a somewhat higher scale of payment for the advanced works and on the second grade examinations. The number of these more finished works has not increased, but the quality of them has improved, and the third grade examinations have also shown a steady advance. In the results of these latter, and in the works submitted in the national competition, the examiners saw a general improvement, and that was notably the case with exercises in designs for manufactures, especially in the large schools of Manchester, Glasgow, and Birmingham, where trades depending on decorative design are extensively carried on. It is much to be desired that those interested in art education, aided by the State, should carefully inspect the works now exhibited at South Kensington, and especially that those who criticise the working of the Department should make themselves acquainted with the kind of work which is encouraged by prizes and payments, and distinguish between it and the amateur or purely pictorial work which the schools are free to turn out, but do not get grants on. It was impossible to get Returns in time to answer the noble Lord's question fully, but, if the noble Lord wishes it, I will
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  give the best figures available. In 1886 the number of works sent up from Schools of Art for Examination was 324,315; in 1887 the number was 364,986; in 1888, when elementary works ceased to be sent in, the number fell to 78,730; in 1889, however, the number rose to 139,314; and in 1890 the number was 135,651.

  FLASHING SIGNALS-ADMIRAL COLOMB'S INVENTION.
  LORD SUDELEY: My Lords, I beg to move for the Return of which I have given notice.
  Moved,
  "For certain further official Correspondence relating to Admiral Colomb's system of flashing signals between the years 1861 and 1867, also since that date; to include the letter from the Treasury to the Amiralty offering to give Admiral Colomb £2,000, and Admiral Colomb's reply thereto."—(Lord Sudeley.)
  LORD ELPHINSTONE: There is no objection to making this Return, but I must point out to my noble Friend that one of the Papers he asks for is not in existence. We have had no reply yet from Admiral Colomb, but if that reply is received in time, it will be printed with the other Papers.
  LORD SUDELEY: I hope my noble Friend will arrange with the Admiralty that, if necessary, the Return shall be delayed for a few days for the purpose of including Admiral Colomb's reply. The Treasury has taken one month in making their offer, and, therefore, it may take a little time for Admiral Colomb to forward his reply. It should, of course, be printed with the other Papers to make them complete.
  LORD EPHINSTONE: I will put the noble Lord's request before the Admiralty; I cannot say anything more.
  On Question agreed to; Return ordered to be laid before the House.
  House adjourned at ten minutes past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.