Lords Sitting of 18 July 1890

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (BOROUGH OF BELFAST) BILL.—(No. 91.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to, with an Amendment.
ARMY DISCIPLINE IN INDIA.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY, in rising to ask the Secretary of State for India what measures the Indian Government has taken to improve the discipline of the regiments recently quartered at Dum Dum; and what compensation it has made to the widow of the man shot by one of four soldiers who went out of barracks without leave on the night of the 6th November last; also to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will take steps to provide temperance canteens for all barracks and European military quarters in India as accessible to the soldiers as the canteens for intoxicating liquors, said:—My Lords, the effects of discipline at the Dum Dum barracks to which I have called the attention of the Secretary of State for India consist, in the first place, in the existence of too great facilities for the soldiers getting out of barracks at all hours of the night; and, secondly, for obtaining ball cartridge and regimental rifles when off duty. Taking advantage of this culpable laxity three soldiers of the Leinster Regiment, named O'Hara, Bellew, and M'Dermot, and a soldier of the Buffs, named Goldsborough, agreed to go out on, the night of November 6 last pig shooting. They left the barracks about 11 o'clock p.m. with two rifles and 10 or 11 rounds of ball cartridge, as stated by one of the witnesses, and the number of empty and unused cartridges picked up in their tracks amounted to that number. These cartridges were obtained by the soldiers of the Leinster Regiment. They were able to leave the barracks unobserved. It appears there were only two sentries—one at the Guard Room and the other at the Quarter-Master's stores, and the Dum Dum barracks are not surrounded by any
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  enclosure or spiked railing. It has also been stated there was inefficiency or irregularity in the matter of roll calls and check rolls at Dum Dum. These statements have been contradicted in the Press, but if the statements are well founded they will prove that further precautions are necessary for the maintenance of discipline. The four soldiers having left barracks proceeded to a village near Dum Dum. They visited two or three houses or huts, knocked up the inmates, and forced them to give them toddy. They then broke into a dispensary and stole a bottle of Eno's fruit salt, but unfortunately they did not drink it at a time when it might have sobered them, and thus prevented the crime which was afterwards committed. They then came to the house of one Sheikh Salim, and found him asleep in his verandah. O'Hara, as was stated at the trial, dragged Salim out by the arm, took him away to a pond near his house, pushed him in, and then knelt down and deliberately fired at him. The man threw up his arms and screamed, and the four soldiers then left him. The wounded man was, however, taken home, but he died before dawn. The bullet, it was found, went in at his right collarbone and came out at his left side, and passed through his left arm. The four soldiers then amused themselves by firing shots at bottles or jugs suspended from a tree, and then returned to barracks, one on foot and the other three in a country cart, in which they had compelled a man to give them a lift. The authors of this crime remained undiscovered for a month. Then the Magistrate promised a pardon to anyone concerned in the crime, who was not the actual murderer, who would give evidence, and Goldsborough and M'Dermot then gave information against O'Hara and Bellew. On April 14 O'Hara and Bellew were put on their trial before Mr. Justice Norris. Bellew was in the course of the trial discharged, and O'Hara was found guilty and sentenced to death. The High Court of Calcutta was, however, set in motion to inquire into the sentence, with the result that the conviction was quashed, on the ground that Goldsborough, the witness, was also an accomplice, and that parts of his evidence

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  were of no avail—not having been corroborated. O'Hara was discharged from the Army, and accordingly went away scot-free. This was unfortunate, because the day before O'Hara was tried another man, a shopkeeper, was tried by the same Judge, Mr. Justice Norris, for having killed a doorkeeper in Calcutta, who had given him. no offence, by running him through the lungs with the sword of a sword-stick, and he died almost immediately. For this unprovoked murder he was sentenced to one year's imprisonment. Now, I think, my Lords, it is for the Secretary of State for India to consider what effect this disregard for their lives must have upon the natives of India. Nor are these the only cases which have occurred recently? There have been two or three other cases of natives of India in the North-West who have been injured by soldiers with almost equal impunity. It may also be asked why these four soldiers were not put on their trial by Court Martial for the military offence of breaking barracks and appropriating Government ammunition. This was purely a military offence and had nothing to do with the murder, so that the maxim non bis in idem would not apply in that case. It has also been stated that the decision of the High Court of Calcutta was not altogether correct with regard to the evidence of the man Goldsborough, because the witness was not necessarily an accomplice, since they all went out on the spree, not with the object of committing murder. Of course, if they had gone out on an expedition to commit burglary then he would have been an accomplice in the crime which afterwards occurred, because burglary necessarily may lead to murder. I will now come to the question which I have put on the Notice Paper with regard to what compensation is intended to be made to the widow and child of Sheikh Salim, whose death was caused by these soldiers and who had been begging since his murder. This marauding expedition in search of toddy was not the first subject of complaint against soldiers of the Leinster Regiment. The jury who tried O'Hara made a subscription among themselves for the relief of the widow, and Mr. Justice Norris commented very severely upon the fact of Sheikh Salim's widow and child having been left
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  without any means of support. One reason, in fact, why the Judge did not inflict a heavier sentence on the man who had run the other native through with his sword-stick was because the firm who employed him had made some compensation to the widow. I now come to the last question on the Notice Paper, and I hope My noble Friend the Secretary of State will be able to state that he has come to some decision upon the question of promoting temperance in the Army of India by establishing temperance canteens in places as accessible to the soldiers as the other canteens. The tragedy at Dum Dum has emphasised the necessity of such a reform. This marauding expedition was hatched in the canteen. Mischief constantly occurs from the soldiers going to the canteens and quarrelling with one another when they begin drinking. On grounds of economy alone the Indian Administration is bound to provide temperance canteens, and to do its utmost to check the drinking of spirits—for the purpose of diminishing the number of soldiers who from that cause primarily have to be invalided home. I believe Sir Frederick Roberts has made some reforms of that kind with regard to the Madras Army, and if that is the case, I hope the Secretary of State will be able to say what he has done in the matter. The noble Viscount will remember that two years ago a plan was published of an Indian Camp comprising a temperance canteen; but I think that must have been a private missionary canteen, for it was relegated to the further end of the camp, while its alcoholic competitor was in the centre. Spirit drinking in the tropics ought to be discouraged in every way possible, and Government ought to provide means for enabling soldiers to be more careful of their health. Not only is it necessary in the tropics; Lord Wolseley said that in his Red River Expedition the soldiers had no spirits, but, though they were constantly wet and had to endure great fatigue, there was no sickness amongst them, and no discontent. This question of temperance canteens has a direct bearing on the murders I have described; but I do not wish to withdraw the attention 'of the Secretary of State from the want of discipline manifested in the circumstances attending the fatal case of this man who was

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  shot by these soldiers. I will make a formal Motion for Papers, because it would be of no use bringing the matter forward if my noble Friend is unwilling to grant them; and I will ask him, therefore, as soon as he receives any reply from the Indian Government, to lay it on the Table of the House.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS): With regard to the breach of discipline in the particular regiments to which my noble Friend has alluded, I am afraid I cannot give him any information to-day; but in consequence of a question which was asked by Sir George Campbell in the other House some time ago, I called for a full Report of the circumstances to which my noble Friend has alluded; but there has not yet been received an answer from the Government of India. For the same reason I am unable to say whether any compensation has been given to the widow of the person who was unfortunately killed on that night. With regard to the last question of the noble Lord, I can give him a much more satisfactory answer, for we have long ago anticipated all he desires. There are now temperance canteens in all corps and batteries in India; they form part of the regimental institutes. The rules for temperance canteens are applicable to all India, and in those rules the use or issue of spirits is discouraged, and every facility given for the use of non-intoxicating drinks. The subject is one which is receiving the constant attention of the Government of India. I have no Papers from the Government of India, and until we receive them it is impossible to say anything about them.

  PAUPER LUNATIC ASYLUMS (IRELAND) (OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read la; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Monday next.—(The Lord de Ros.) (No. 209.)
LIGHT RAILWAYS (IRELAND) AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 60.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE EARL OF LEITRIM: In moving the Second Reading of this Bill I shall trouble your Lordships with very few remarks. The 2nd clause is the principal clause in the Bill, and it has
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  reference to any surplus which may arise from the free grant from Government. A surplus may arise in two ways, either through indifference or by design. It may arise through a contract being taken for a smaller amount than the Board of Works may have estimated. That has been the case in reference to railways which have been partly guaranteed, notably one railway in the County Leitrim, in which the Railway Company were able to construct their line within the amount estimated by their own contractors, and £10,000 under the capital expenditure estimated by the Board of Works. Therefore, in that case undoubtedly a surplus would have arisen. Then, again, it may arise by design. It may arise through the Treasury deliberately arranging that in certain cases a surplus shall be at the disposal of certain Railway Companies; for instance, arranging to subsidise, as it were, its working expenses. At the present moment these light railways running through congested districts are all upon the same footing. If this Bill were to become law, the Treasury would be able to judge between one and another as to which it would be the more desirable to assist in the matter of working expenses. My Lords, there are, I believe, technical difficulties in the way of this Bill, so that, practically, it cannot be read a second time. It is a Money Bill, and therefore, I believe, cannot be read a second time in your Lordships' House without having passed the House of Commons; but I wish to point out to the Government the advantages which, it seems to me, would arise if this Bill were passed. I should mention that in Clause 6 there is a printer's error in the drafting: it should read, "in case the limited owner of any property or land," instead of "absolute owner." That would enable limited owners to give free grants in these cases. That would be a reasonable and proper thing to do; of course, it would not be compulsory, and I do not think Trustees of an estate could reasonably object to a limited owner giving free grants of lands where there was a free grant on the part of the nation towards the construction of railways through his property. Again, therefore, from that point of view it seems to me desirable.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl of Leitrim.)
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN): My noble Friend has already pointed out the technical difficulty which exists with regard to this Bill, namely, that it is a Bill almost entirely proposing to deal with the surplus monies that may be derived from a free grant made by Parliament. I need hardly remind your Lordships that such free grant will be made under the authority of the other House, and, therefore, it is impossible that the noble Lord should be able to pass through your Lordships' House a Bill proposing to deal with a surplus before the surplus has arisen. Under those circumstances, though I was prepared to point out to my noble Friend various objections which we entertain to the Bill, it is hardly necessary for me to do so; and I would ask him not to press it, as he himself seems to see the objection.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn: Then Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  WESTERN AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION BILL.—(No. 184.)
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
  INTESTATES ESTATES BILL. (No. 148.)
  Read 3a (according to order) with the amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACTS OF ENGLAND AND SCO ['LAND REPEAL BILL. (No. 156.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD DENMAN: My Lords, I hope to explain to your lordships before I sit down that my Bill is neither audacious nor impertinent. There were amendments on the part of three noble Lords. On the 15th May, the noble Earl Lord Carnarvon pointed out the great anomaly existing, and it has been stated on high authority that the majority of your Lordships' House are in favour of the measure. This measure has reference to County Government. A most salutary regulation was passed in the Hallamshire County Council, that no member of that body should speak for more than 10 minutes; and as there are
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  30 members, instead of the 65 comprising Road Trustees and other Authorities, their meetings would only have occupied five hours supposing every member of the Council wished to speak. I venture to mention that fact, and I hope your Lordships will have regard to it in considering the time to be devoted to speeches. I have no wish to say anything in disparagement of the County Councils, though I do not think you will find in their working during the three years since their commencement any improvement on the old system; but that is merely matter of opinion. I merely address your Lordships in the hope that what is useful may be adopted, and that whatever is faulty may be remedied.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." [The Lord Denman.)
  THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (The Earl of JERSEY): I am sorry the noble Lord has thought it necessary to introduce another Bill upon this subject. This is obviously neither the time nor the occasion for a discussion on the Local Government Acts which have been so recently passed. I will not delay your Lordships, therefore, by criticising either the Preamble or the clauses of this Bill, but move at once that it be read this day three months.
  Amendment moved to leave out ("now") and add at the end of the Motion ("this day three months.")—(The Earl of Jersey)
  On question whether ("now") shall stand part of the Motion, resolved in the negative; and Bill to be read 2"this day three months.

LIGHT RAILWAYS (IRELAND).
THE EARL OF LEITRIM, in rising to move—
"That there be laid before this House Returns of the receipts from goods and passenger traffic, &c.; also, of the working expenditure, net receipts, and rolling stock, of the Irish Light Railways."
said: My Lords, the object of my making this Motion is to enable ratepayers to arrive at some idea of what has already been done in the way of opening out the country by Light Railways by showing what the traffic receipts and working expenses on the one hand and the net receipts on the other will be likely to be of the lines which are proposed to be opened in the congested districts.
Moved, "That there be laid before this House Returns, as under, of the receipts from goods and passenger traffic, &c.; also, of the working expenditure, net receipts, and rolling stock, of the Irish Light Railways."

RECEIPTS FROM GOODS AND PASSENGER TRAFFIC, &c, ON IRISH LIGHT RAILWAYS.

Year.

Length of Line open.

Passenger Traffic.

Goods Traffic.

No. of Miles travelled by Trains.

No. of Passengers conveyed.

Holders of Season Tickets.

Minerals.

General Merchandise

Passenger Trains.

Goods and Mineral Trains

Total.

1st Class.

2nd Class.

3rd Class.

Total.

1887

1888

1889

Receipts (Gross) from Passenger Traffic

Receipts (Gross) from Goods Traffic.

Miscellaneous Rents, Tolls, &c.

Total Receipts from all sources.

Receipt per Mile of Line open.

Year

Receipts from Passengers.

Excess Luggage, Parcels, Carriages, Horses, &c.

Mails.

Total Passenger Traffic Receipts.

Merchandise.

Live Stock.

Minerals

Total.

1st Class.

2nd Class.

3rd Class.

Season.

Total.

1887

1888

1889

WORKING EXPENDITURE, NET RECEIPTS, AND ROLLING STOCK OF IRISH LIGHT RAILWAYS.

Year.

Length of Line open

Maintenance of Way, Works, &c.

Locomotive Power (including Stationary Engines).

Repairs and Renewals of Carriages and Waggons.

Traffic Expenses (Coaching and Merchandise.)

General Charges.

Rates and Taxes.

Compensation for Damage and Loss of Goods.

Miscellaneous.

Total

1887

1888

1889

Total Receipts.

Net Receipts.

Proportion per Cent.

Rolling Stock.

Working Expenditure per Mile of Line open.

Year

Locomotives.

Carriages, Waggons, Trucks, &c.

Carriages.

Other Passenger Train Vehicles.

Waggons (all Kinds).

Any other Vehicles.

Total Number of Vehicles.

1887

1888

1889

—(The Lord Clements (E. Leitrim].)
THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): My Lords, exactly as the Motion stands I am afraid I am not prepared to assent to it, because there is an ambiguity in the expression "Light Railways." That term is used in the Act only as regards one particular kind of railway, as I understand it; but there are other railways which are really, in fact, light railways, although not technically so, and it would not be possible for the Board of Trade to distinguish one class of railways from another without some intimation from the noble Lord as to what railways he refers to. The Board of Trade Returns already give the particulars asked for as regards all railways, and I would refer the noble
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Lord to the Parliamentary Paper No. 5,859 for last year. The Returns for the present year are in course of preparation, and will be issued in a very few days; but if the noble Lord will confer with me at the Board of Trade as to what class he means by the term light railways I shall be glad to do what I can to give him the information he asks for. At the same time, as in its present form, as put before your Lordships' House, I cannot assent to the Motion, I hope he will not press it.
THE EARL OF LEITRIM: That is quite satisfactory, and I will withdraw the Motion.
Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

BOILER EXPLOSIONS ACT, 1882, AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 164.)
Read 3a (according to order), with the amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

SHREWSBURY AND HOLYHEAD ROAD (ANGLESEY AND CARNARVON) BILL.
Read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 210.)
House adjourned at Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.