*THE EARL OR DUNRAVEN,in moving for a Return of the number of vessels arriving at the Port of London from the Port of Hamburg between 1st January and 1st July, 1890, stating in how many cases Reports were furnished respecting aliens; and to ask Her Majesty's Government what information is given in such Reports, and what steps, if any, are taken to ascertain whether aliens are on board in cases where no Report is made, said: My Lords, I scarcely think it is necessary for me to trouble your Lordships with any remarks in justification of the notice of Motion and the question which appears on the Paper in my name. Her Majesty's Government stated last Session that steps would be taken to obtain statistical information as to the number of aliens coming into this country, or, at any rate, coming into certain ports in this country, and I presumed that information would also be obtained as to the destination, origin, circumstances, trades, and conditions of those aliens. It appears to me that it would be convenient to the House and to the country, and desirable that Returns giving such information as has been gathered should be furnished for the past half-year. It is very desirable that information of this kind should be collected; but I need not point out to your Lordships that in a matter of this kind statistics are not only useless, but are much worse than useless; they are absolutely misleading, unless they are full and complete, and, above all, accurate. There must be no possibility of exaggeration on the one side, and on the other side nothing should escape the official eye. I do not think, my Lords, that this House or the other House has been given any information as to the Returns which masters of vessels are required to furnish, or as to what steps are taken to see that Returns are furnished in all cases, or further, whether any steps are taken to ascertain whether aliens are on board vessels, or not in cases where 633 no Returns are given. I beg, therefore, my Lords, to move for a Return of the vessels mentioned in the notice. I have confined my Motion to the ports of inquiry to the Ports of London and Hamburg; but I need not say that if the Government can supply us with wider information embracing other ports, I shall have no possible objection to their doing so.
§ Moved, "That there be laid before this House a return of the number of vessels arriving at the Port of London from the Port of Hamburg between 1st January and 1st July, 1890, stating in how many cases reports were furnished respecting aliens."—(The Lord Kenry, E. Dunraven and Mount-Earl.)
*THE EARL OF MEATHMy Lords, I am very glad to hear the noble Earl ask this question, but I wish he had included some other ports. I understand the reason he has only asked for a Return as to London is that, I believe, some 90 per cent, of the immigrants do arrive in the Port of London; but still there is another 10 per cent, to be accounted for, and I think it is of importance we should have information with regard to those who arrive at Leith, Glasgow, Liverpool, and Hull. I believe that the noble Earl desires a good deal more than actually to obtain the information he has asked for. I presume his object is to seek some further legislation. Of course, I am not aware whether that is his desire, but at all events it is my desire, and I sincerely hope that something will be done to stop this immigration of foreign paupers into this country. We have had a good deal of evidence before the Sweating Committee with regard to the evil effects of the immigration of these paupers from Russia, Germany, and Poland; and although the Report which was presented to your Lordships' House does not lay as great stress as I should wish it had done upon this particular point, I think it will be conceded that a great deal of suffering is entailed upon the working classes of this country owing to the competition which they have to meet in consequence of the immigration from Russia, Germany, and Poland. The average number of immigrants who land in this country annually is, I believe, 30,000, and the bulk of that number are Polish Jews, who come here with scarcely any money in their pockets. A great deal of very useful information has been 634 obtained in this matter by a gentleman who appeared and gave evidence before the Sweating Committee of your Lordships' House—I allude to Mr. Arnold White. He took a great deal of trouble in going down to the East End of London and to the Ducks to find out all he could with regard to the immigration of these foreigners, and upon one occasion he brought up to the Committee of your Lordships' House 50, chosen at random, who had just arrived from Hamburg. Out of those 50 men, there were 15 who had arrived on these shores without a penny in their pockets, and there were 14 who had arrived without a knowledge of any trade whatever. Now, is it fair upon our own working-men that these victims of oppression, for, as a general rule, they come from Russia and Poland, and have been driven out by persecution, being Jews, should be allowed to make use of this country as an asylum, if by doing so they create poverty and misery among our own working people? Of course, I know the argument put forward will be that the traditions of England will not permit us to refuse an asylum to any individual; and I am perfectly willing to accede to that as long as by receiving these people we do not do an injustice to our own population. But I believe that charity begins at home, and that as long as it can be shown—and I think it can be clearly shown—that our working people are suffering from the immigration of these foreign paupers, we ought to put sentiment on one side and consider their interest first. The wages of some 160,000 families (and supposing each family to consist of five persons, that represents some 800,000 people) are depressed from the very fact alone of the influx of these 30,000 foreign paupers annually. Not only do they cut down the wages of our working men and women—and it is the women that I principally feel for—to starvation point: but besides that, their habits are not such as our working classes are accustomed to, and I think it will be acknowledged by all who have lived in those districts and have come in contact with that class that they are dragging down our own working class population physically, and I may say morally. I have no desire whatever to throw a shield of protection round the drunkard or the 635 idler, or the individual who cannot, or will not, learn a trade. I do not wish in the smallest degree to favour my own country people when the competition is a fair one, but I do certainly say that we are not behaving rightly to our own working population and their wives and children in permitting foreigners who are accustomed to a lower standard of life than our countrymen to come as unskilled paupers into this country and to undersell the labouring classes in this country. One circumstance which shows that even foreign nations, through which these people pass, are astonished at our leniency in this matter, and are certainly not disposed to imitate it is, that when a few years ago the Jewish Board of Guardians and others in London were in the habit occasionally of sending Jews, who had come to this country without money, back to Germany and to Russia, a Police Order was issued at Hamburg forbidding foreigners to come into Germany unless they had a through ticket to Russia, or unless they were able to maintain themselves in Germany. Now, what does that mean? It means that the Authorities of Hamburg will send over to this country paupers whom they will not receive when sent back again a few days afterwards. The Americans do not allow us to send over paupers to that country, and, in my opinion, quite rightly. By an Act passed in 1882, it is stated that if, on examination by the officers, whose duty it is to go on board any ship and examine the condition of the passengers, they shall find among such passengers any person unable to take charge of himself or herself without becoming a public burden, they shall report the same in writing to the Public Collector or officials of such port, and such person shall not be permitted to land. Now, I do hope that we in this country will take some step of that sort. Our colonies would not permit us to send over to them paupers. They are at this moment too far away to be affected by an influx of paupers from Europe; but they legislate against the introduction of the Chinese, and they place a Poll Tax upon each Chinaman who enters the country. Of late this subject has come a good deal under my attention, owing to my being Chairman of an Association which endeavours to persuade the Government to assist colonisation; and although this 636 Association has received the support of some 130,000 working-men belonging to Trades Unions, whenever we have received a rebuff from Trades Unions it has almost invariably been owing to the immigration of foreign paupers. They ask us, "What is the good of your recommending working-men to be sent out of this country, and sent off to America or to the colonies if for every man who is sent out, as is now the case, two foreigners come into this country?" And it is an argument which is exceedingly difficult to meet; in fact, it is impossible to meet it, and, therefore, gradually it has been forced upon my attention until the conviction has grown in my mind that if we desire to improve the condition of the working classes in this country, and to assist the poorer classes to emigrate to our colonies, or to colonise elsewhere, we must at the same time do something to prevent this country from becoming the dustheap of Europe.
*LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHMy Lords, I cordially acknowledge the great importance of the subject which the two noble Lords who have just spoken have brought before the House. I also acknowledge the promise upon the part of the Board of Trade to get as accurate information as possible as to what is really the existing state of matters with regard to this foreign immigration, and I think I shall be able to show your Lordships that that promise is in process of being fulfilled in spirit and in letter. I have also to acknowledge the promise to make the information public as soon as it can be put into a form which would be practically useful for any purpose. I do not propose to follow the noble Earl who spoke last into the important question of policy which he raised. I will just say this, that undoubtedly there were Acts in force during the Continental Wars at the beginning of the present century prohibiting aliens from landing on our shores. Those Acts were subsequently, after deliberate and long discussion, repealed, and undoubtedly there would be great difficulties in re-imposing disabilities upon people landing upon our shores. However, these are important matters of policy upon which I should not like to express a definite opinion without grave consideration and preparation. The real matter with which 637 we are concerned this evening is the question of getting accurate information upon the subject. With regard to that, I "will, with the permission of the House, state the exact position of matters at present. There is, I venture to think, some misapprehension in the mind of the noble Earl who has moved for the Return as to the use of the word "Report." The documents which are technically known as Reports would not, I think, be of great service to him. What the noble Earl no doubt really wants are the "alien lists." The Reports of ships are Customs documents, and they include a great number of things. I hold one of them in my hand, and it includes information as to the cargo carried, the stores, at what station the ship is lying, information which is important only to the Customs, and which is not necessary for the purpose which we have in hand tonight. But one of the things which has to be included in those Reports is a statement whether there are any alien passengers on board the ship. If there are any alien passengers on board a ship then, by an Act of William IV., a list of them is to be furnished to the Custom House Authorities, with the names, rank, occupations, and other descriptions of the persons so mentioned. The furnishing of those lists of aliens had, up to the beginning of the present year, fallen into desuetude, and was only in force as regards the Ports of London and Hull, and even the lists from those ports were sent to the Home Office, and not to the Board of Trade. But for some months past all the Reports from the ports of London and Hull have been sent to the Board of Trade, and have been there carefully tabulated and examined, and, so far as those ports are concerned, if the noble Earl will refer to the Report which was furnished to both Houses of Parliament on the 21st March of the present year, upon emigration and immigration, at page 31 he will find some important information as regards those ports and the number of aliens who come into the country through them. It must be borne in mind that as far as the port of Hull is concerned a large number of those who come to that port went across the country, and on to America. I think the noble Earl who spoke from the Cross-Benches has largely overstated the num- 638 ber of the immigrants who remain. There is no information which we have which would lead us to believe there are as many as 30,000 of them coming into this country annually. Up to the end of last year there was, as I have stated, only information in possession of the Board of Trade as regards the ports of London and Hull, but during the last spring, in fulfilment of the promise given by the Board of Trade, those lists of aliens have been called for from the following ports, and have been regularly sent in: Aberdeen, Bristol, Belfast, Dublin, Goole, Grangemouth, Glasgow, Greenock, Burnt Island, Leith, Liverpool, Birkenhead, Queensborough, Sunderland, Newcastle, and North and South Shields and others. So that I think your Lordships will see, so far as the collection of information goes, we had in anticipation endeavoured to get and are getting even more than the noble Earl has asked for, a Return of the number of vessels as between London and Hamburg, and I venture to suggest to him that all the information that would be got from that is given in a convenient form at page 31 of the document to which I have referred. I would venture to suggest to him that it is not desirable to call for a Return at the present time—the present system has only come into operation quite recently—it would be better to wait until the immigration and emigration statistics for the present year are published, which will be early next year. The Statistical Department of the Board of Trade are now engaged in studying and tabulating those Returns as they come in, and it is their intention to include in their next Report a full account of the results arrived at. Our endeavours to get accurate information do not stop there, because it is obvious that aliens may come in by other ways. They may come in by some of the cheaper route passenger steamers, and reach the Metropolis or other large towns in this country by means of the railways. We have, therefore, asked the railways which run between London and the ports to furnish us with the number of second and third class tickets to and from London, and if there appears to be a large excess coming into London over and above those going away steps will be taken to find out whether it is caused by 639 any large immigration of aliens by that means. As regards the final question upon the Paper, whether any effort has been made to test the accuracy of the information given in such Reports, I have to reply in the affirmative, and say that the Customs Authorities are doing their best to ascertain whether there is any reason to believe that the provisions of the Act are being evaded, and, in addition to that, the Board has given instructions to our Consuls at Hamburg and other ports abroad to report when aliens arrive at them, and, if there is any ground for believing that aliens of the poorer class are being shipped from those ports to this country, to give such information to us here as will enable us to check the information upon this side. Under all these circumstances I would urge that the Motion should not be pressed on the present occasion, and I repeat the pledge that as soon as any information likely to be useful in a statistical form is obtained, no time shall be lost in placing it before Parliament.
§ LORD THRINGPerhaps the noble Lord will be good enough to state whether an accurate account is kept of the emigration of aliens? Because, from the evidence given before the Sweating Committee it appears questionable whether the immigration is not counterbalanced by the emigration; in other words, whether England was not simply used as a means of transit for emigrants en route to America. I would only refer to the evidence of one witness, Mr. Stephany, the Secretary to the Jewish Board of Guardians, who stated that the emigration of the Jews was fully equal to the immigration. I think I ought to state, in justice to the Jewish Board of Guardians, that although Jews may be landed in England in very poor circumstances, yet they never fall upon the rates, because they are entirely supported by their own community.
*LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHMy Lords, there are two sides to that question, and I would rather not open a discussion upon it at present; but the mere fact of the liberality of the richer portion of the Jewish community has been suggested as attracting these people to England. As to the question whether any reliable statistics can be 640 got as to the emigration of aliens, I am afraid there is no statutory power that would enable that to be done at present; but if any means can be employed to obtain that information, I will see whether it can be done. I would rather not give any pledge upon the subject until we see whether that can be done or not. As regards Hull, we are in a position to say, and can prove it if necessary, that a large number of aliens are in the habit of coming to Hull on their passage across the country to Liverpool and thence to America.
*THE EARL OF DUNRAVENMy Lords, I quite agree with my noble Friend who has spoken for the Government that it is not desirable; in fact, I think it is impossible now to go into such a large question as whether the emigration is larger than the immigration into the country. The noble Lord opposite, Lord Thring, seems to consider that there is a considerable stream of very poor and even destitute foreigners who come here, and, at all events for a short time, reside in England, and after residing here a few months, may be passed on by the richer portion of their community to America. That is not a very satisfactory state of things, even if true. I cannot say whether it is true or not, but it is a matter which would require considerable time to discuss. After what the noble Lord has said on behalf of the Government, I will withdraw this Motion. I have heard with the greatest satisfaction what has fallen from the noble Lord's lips as to the intention of Her Majesty's Government to furnish Parliament and the country as soon as possible at the beginning of next Session, with full and accurate information on this most important subject. The only point I did not clearly understand was whether in these alien, lists, which the noble Lord has referred to, any mention is made of the material condition of the people, and whether they have any means of support, either in money or the knowledge of any handicraft or trade which is likely to enable them to make a decent living in this country. That is a point upon which I think the noble Lord might be able to give information; also whether there is any kind of penalty attaching to masters of vessels who fail to return the numbers of aliens on board. Of course, when I 641 asked for these Reports I did not mean the regular Reports furnished to the Customs; the words in my notice are Reports respecting aliens. I did not know the proper term to use; but the noble Lord has explained that they are termed "alien lists." But as I understand the noble Lord to say that steps are being taken to see that these regulations are not evaded, I should be anxious to know if he can inform me whether there is any way of punishing masters of vessels who in their Reports to the Custom House omit to state that aliens are on board their vessels. My noble Friend on the Cross B311ch.es has mentioned the question of the emigration of our own working classes. I cannot, of course, go into that now. I should, however, like to refer to the figures given of the foreign immigration in reference to the steps taken by the Government. My noble Friend estimated them at 30,000 annually; the noble Lord below me (Lord Balfour), considers that figure to be an excessive one. Now, that is the very point on which we want information—we want to know what the number is. Whether that number be too large or too small I do not know; but if my memory does not fail me, Mr. Lindsay, the chief of the Long Room at the Custom House, in his evidence before the Select Committee on Emigration and Immigration (Foreigners), stated that in his opinion one line of steamers alone landed 400 of these destitute foreigners every week at Tilbury Docks. He estimated that 100,000 of these people arrived annually at our shores to remain, and was informed that, as a rule, they settled at the East End of London. On the other hand, in the evidence of an official from the Home Office, they were estimated at about 98,000. That, my Lords, is the great reason why I am so very anxious that accurate statistics should be furnished, and why I am so very pleased to hear that Her Majesty's Government are taking steps to furnish Parliament with accurate information as soon as possible.
*LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHWith regard to the numbers, they were in 1887–8 9,194, landed from all ports, in London; in 1889, 9,846; that is from the German ports to London. In regard to Hull in 1889, the total number 642 was 41,960, as compared with 63,116 in 1888; but the whole of those with the exception of 234 in 1889, and 295 in 1888 went over to America. If we take the number, therefore, to be slightly in excess of 9,000, I think that is probably near the mark. With regard to the question whether any means exist of enforcing the penalties which are imposed for failure to make Reports, I beg to inform the House that the Statute of William IV., which I referred to before, finishes by stating that if any master of a vessel refuses to make such declaration, or makes a false declaration, he shall for every such offence forfeit the sum of £20. A further penalty is imposed for every offence if the master shall wilfully refuse to make the declaration. That appears to me to be sufficiently stringent to meet the case.
*LORD BALFOUR OF BURLEIGHI am not able to say whether it is put in operation; but the Customs House Authorities have been instructed to see whether there is any ground for believing that it is evaded. With regard to the particulars which are given, the Christian names and surnames are given, and the profession and native country. There is nothing given as to the circumstances of the immigrant; and I must say it is extremely difficult to get accurate information as to the circumstances. Some might say they were independent, and others might not give correct particulars, and there are no means of testing that. If the noble Earl would like to see what the Reports are, I have copies of them here.
*THE EARL OF MEATHlam informed, I do not know whether rightly or wrongly, that in some of these Returns when information has been given of these immigrants, only the head of the family has been put down, and not the children. Of course, if that is the case it would account for the discrepancy in the figures given in evidence before the Sweating Committee.
§ Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.