THIRD READING. (Hansard, 1 July 1890)

*THR EAEL OF JERSEY
My Lords, when this Bill was passed through Committee there was an understanding that certain points should be referred for further consideration. There were three points raised: the first was whether more power should he taken to appoint additional officers, besides the Inspectors referred to in the Act; the second point was whether it might not be desirable to make the payment of compensation retrospective, so that persons owning animals which were slaughtered before the 1st September might be compensated for them under the Act, instead of out of the rates, as at present; and the third point was whether it might not be advisable to take further powers to withhold compensation for cattle slaughtered for having been in contact with diseased animals in cases where the owners had concealed the existence of the disease. These three points have been considered by the Minister of Agriculture, and he thinks that, under the Bill as it stands, there is ample power to appoint a sufficient num- 446 ber of Inspectors and other officers. There would be no fear of too many salaried officers being appointed, as any additional work would be done by Sub-Inspectors, who would only be paid by fees, except in the case of a general outbreak, when special arrangements would be made. With regard to the suggestion that the Bill should be made to apply to cattle slaughtered before the date when it comes into operation, as the provision in the Bill was founded on a Resolution of the House of Commons, it would require a separate Resolution to carry out the suggestion, and, considering the difficulties of passing measures quickly, it would not be desirable to make that change. As to the third point, there has naturally been considerable difference of opinion, but the President of the Board of Agriculture has carefully considered the matter, and has come to the conclusion that under the Act of 1878. and the present measure, he has sufficient powers to cope with any outbreak of pleuro-pneumonia which may arise, and that it will not be necessary to extend his powers by this Bill. No doubt it is very desirable that evil doers should be punished, but the President of the Board thinks he has sufficient power. If afterwards it is found desirable to enlarge his powers, it would be quite possible to get a short measure passed with this object in another Session of Parliament. I hope, therefore, it will not be considered necessary by those who take an interest in this matter to insist upon any change being made in the Bill.

§ *LORD MORRIS
My Lords, on the occasion of the Second Reading of this Bill, the noble Lord opposite mentioned that there was a very strong belief in England, or in his part of the country, that this disease was propagated from Ireland. He spoke of the Government of the day as not having acted with great vigour in endeavouring to stamp it out, and said it was much more difficult to enforce the orders in Ireland than in England. I will take this opportunity, not having been present when the Bill went into Committee, of dissenting entirely, not only from what the noble Lord stated as being a matter of belief, but from the notion that there is any good ground for it. At the time of the Second Reading of the Bill there were only two places in- 447 fected, the North and South Dublin Unions. An Order was made in February, 1889, declaring that no cattle belonging to those districts should be exported to Great Britain, or exposed for sale in the Metropolitan Market on the ordinary day; and further, all cattle in the defined districts must be handed on hoof and horn, and can only be moved out of the districts on licence; and every addition or diminution of cattle moved from to districts must be reported to the police, who exercise the strictest supervision over the defined districts and prosecute. Inspectors are specially employed and engaged in visiting the defined districts. Any diseased cattle are at once slaughtered, and all cattle in contact. Pleuro-pneumonia has decreased. In 1887 there were 240 outbreaks, and 819 cattle attacked. In 1888 only 181 cases and 522 attacked. In 1889, 108 outbreaks and 184 cattle attacked. All cases reported by the Board of Agriculture in England are at once inquired into. In all cases, it appeared that the cattle were not affected when leaving Ireland. I understand that a serious outbreak in Norfolk was not reported to the authorities there for months. The disease is much more likely to have spread in this manner from the County of Norfolk than by cattle from Ireland. I think, therefore, this impression, which the noble Earl says is so strongly felt in England, appears to be founded on no facts. I feel that the Government have acted with the greatest vigour in stamping out pleuro-pneumonia, the same course as they followed with regard to moral plagues. I can only say that the Orders have been carried out in Ireland as stringently as possible, and I do not see that more difficulty exists in enforcing them in Ireland than in England. It appears to me that in England really you have only adopted the system which has been in force in Ireland. The prevalent belief in England which the noble Earl referred to is wholly unfounded, and I suppose the only way to meet an unfounded statement of belief is to contradict it on the first occasion that one can.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
I have no doubt the noble Lord is entirely satisfied with the Report he has read, but I should infer from that satisfaction 448 he has probably not had much practical experience upon this subject. I am perfectly aware that excellent orders are issued in Ireland by the Privy Council, and I have no doubt that they are under the impression there that the diminution in the number of cases is entirely caused by the excellent way in which the law has been carried into effect. But I am rather disposed to draw exactly the opposite conclusion from that diminution of cases, because the impression it makes upon my mind is that there has been a want of vigilance in this matter. I doubt exceedingly that there has been a diminution of pleuro-pneumonia in Ireland. It is almost impossible to conceive that it can be so, when we know that animals which have been found to be affected with pleuro-pneumonia in England have been traced to Ireland; and so much has this been felt to be the case, that I know a great many people who do not think it prudent now to purchase Irish cattle, and as those cattle are exceedingly valuable to farmers, they would not decline to purchase them if they were not obliged to do so. Therefore, I think the noble Lord will see that that belief cannot be so easily disposed of. Ireland is a country of very small agricultural proprietors, and there are a great number of them; and those who are acquainted with the class of men who constitute a very large proportion of those proprietors must know that it follows there is much more difficulty in getting information from them than in a country like this, where there are mostly large farmers. I am very glad the noble Lord has read the Report. It shows certainly that there has been no lack of Orders issued, and all I can say is that I sincerely trust those Orders will be vigorously and continuously carried into effect. I hope the Irish Government, occupied as it is with many other matters, may in this so conduct their affairs that they will meet with the approval of everyone, and that they will succeed in removing from Ireland this disease, which affects animals sent to England. I am sorry my noble Friend, after consultation with the President of the Board of Agriculture, has not been able to accept the Amendments which have been suggested. I rather gather from what he has said that the difficulty is not the intrinsic character of those 449 Amendments, but the fear that if the Bill goes down to the other House there may be difficulty in passing the measure through. I can appreciate the difficulty, and I do not wish to undervalue it. I regret that the last of the Amendments has not been adopted, which would have enabled the Government to deprive those owners who had neglected to give notice of the existence of disease on their farms of the compensation which they would otherwise have been entitled to. I think that would have given a very valuable power to the President of the Board of Agriculture. I am by no means persuaded that the powers they possess will be found adequate for the purposes required. I think the experience of the Local Authorities, which is very considerable in these matters, is at present much more weighty than that of the Board of Agriculture. All I can say is that I am very sorry the Amendments cannot be introduced into the Bill, and that I hope at some future time, if there is any amending Bill brought in, it may be found possible to include them.