EXAMINATIONS FOR OFFICIAL APPOINTMENTS.

HL Deb 28 February 1890 vol 341 cc1445-83

EARL WEMYSS

My Lords, in rising to bring before you the notice which stands in my name on the Paper, I have to make a double apology to your Lordships. I have, first, to apologise for this notice having last Session been so long on the notice Paper, and for not having brought it forward, but, as perhaps some of your Lordships know, when those twin enemies of man, gout and neuralgia, get possession of one's person, they do so to the exclusion of everything else. It was physically impossible for me, therefore, to come down to this House for the purpose of bringing this matter forward. I make that apology to those in particular who may have suffered inconvenience from my inability to attend. The second apology I have to make is for venturing at all to bring this subject before your Lordships, but the explanation I have to make for doing so is this: Those of your Lordships who read the Nineteenth Century—and who does not?—are probably aware that at the close of 1888 and the beginning of 1889 the pages of that periodical were full of letters and articles upon the question of examination. Against what is called "The sacrifice of Education to Examination" a very numerously signed protest was drawn up which appeared in the columns of that serial. On turning to that protest I find it was signed by 415 persons There were among them 12 Peers, 73 Members of Parliament, 154 principals, professors, tutors, heads of schools, ladies, and others connected with education. Of those persons 37 who signed the general protest, I should mention, signed it with reservation. Now, my Lords, I signed among others, not on account of having any special knowledge of the subject, but in agreement with the general feeling which I have no doubt exists throughout the country, and possibly among your Lordships, that this system of examination was and is being carried in this country to an extreme. I afterwards, to my surprise, one day received a letter from three gentlemen who had been most active in making the protest, Mr. Lowe, Mr. Auberon Herbert, and Mr. Frederic Harrison, asking me to bring this matter before your Lordships' House, and ask for the appointment of a Royal Commission. My answer was that I had no special aptitude for this work, that I had simply signed the protest to show my own feeling in reference to it, and that there were many Members of your Lordships' House far more able to deal with the subject, to whom they had better appeal. But having received a further letter from them I think your Lordships will agree that I could do no other than consent to bring this matter before you. In doing so, I shall not venture to give you any opinions of my own upon this most important matter; your Lordships must look upon me as a sort of telephonic instrument, which will bring to your ears the views and opinions which have been uttered outside the walls of this House; and in giving those views and opinions I shall endeavour to do so in as condensed a form as I can. For that I pray your Lordships' patience. I wish I had the power of condensation, which, as the story goes, was once possessed by a French cook—I do not know whether he was in the service of the Noble Earl Granville—who was supposed to be very extravagant and wasteful of meat. When he was reprimanded, and asked what had become of an "ox which had been sent into the larder a few days before," he was equal to the occasion, for, putting his hand into his pocket he drew forth a meat lozenge — "Voilâ le bœuf de Monsieur." I repeat that I wish I had such powers of condensation; but I have endeavoured, out of the documents which have appeared upon the subject, to summarise, as far as I can, what appear to me to be the principal protests against the cramming examinations which, are conducted at the present time. I think I had best begin by touching upon the general protest upon the question. To discuss the general question would embrace the whole subject of education and culture; but my Motion is confined to two points, namely, inquiry into the means for obtaining good public servants for the service of the State, and also inquiry into what is done abroad, so that we may, if possible, profit by the methods adopted in foreign countries. I believe that as regards the arguments against the general system of education, so far as general education is concerned, this is the sort of thing that is said: that education, generally speaking, in the proper sense of the word is sacrificed to examination; that is, education in the true sense of teaching—that which trains the mind and faculties; and that training of the mind and faculties is impossible with the rapidly succeeding examinations of students, which are constantly going on at the present time. I see that one of the fellows of Oriel says that between the ages of 7 and 22, he was never examined less than twice a year. Then it is stated that what is thus learnt for examination purposes is rapidly forgotten; the examinees' memory is called "a ten-days' memory," and no wonder. The Duke of Argyll, speaking of the present system, says— In primary education we have an overburdened memory and a weakened brain, and in higher education an artificial examination. Then it is said that the aims of students are misdirected: that instead of being directed to learning, culture, and education in the proper sense of the term, men's aims are entirely directed to getting money—prizes, scholarships, and fellowships — and making way in life. The result is that you have superficiality, monotony, and men turned out as from a one-pattern machine. All play of imagination or individual character is crushed out, as it were, by an iron roller, and you have uniformity where Nature intended variety. Education is given into the hands of two classes of specialists, the examiners and the crammers, and everything is directed to the examinations. And what is the direction of these exminations? They cause the construction of analyses, summaries, and tables to be substituted for the study of Standard works, and the Association of Teachers meets to discuss what are called "wrinkles" in examinations, those wrinkles being intended to meet the crotchets of examiners, with which they are well acquainted. A teacher says that his most intelligent pupils do not do best in examinations. Now here is what a lady, a parent, says— It is the duty of parents to revolt against the present system, because a child's life is a perfect torture, and no heed is taken of the child's intellectual bent. Sir Sydney Waterlow states that he is Governor of a school where there are 800 out-door pupils and 200 boarders, and that in that school Ever since they had prevented the headmaster trying for payment by results the educational improvement in the school had been manifest and great. I am happy to say that, under the wise rule of my noble Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, within the last fortnight, a revised educational Code for Scotland has come out, under which payment for results in schools is in a great measure done away with; the payment is given for classes, and much discretion is given to the schoolmaster as to how he will classify his scholars. That is what has been very much wanted; what parents and teachers have been asking for; and I think I may say that the proposal of my noble Friend has been received with gratitude in Scotland by all who are interested in teaching. Now, my Lords, the general system of these examinations is pithily put by an old Parliamentary friend of mine, Admiral Sir J. Hay, who says, "There is really nothing like our present system of examination—except in China." It is true we have not got quite to the point yet that they have reached in China in this respect. I saw in a paper the other day that at Canton they have what is called an "examination lottery;" that is to say, they bet on the students who are going up for exami- nation just as they do in this country upon horse races on Epsom Downs; and in China, too, it is said, that both horses and jockeys—that is, the students and the examiners—are occasionally "made safe" in order that those who make the bets may win in those lotteries. Well, I trust we shall not come to that; but I have here a passage in which a very distinguished scientific man puts the argument very strongly and clearly—Professor Huxley. He says about examinations— Examination, like fire, is a good servant, but a bad master, and there seems to be some danger of its becoming our master. I by no means stand alone in this opinion. Experienced friends of mine do not hesitate to say that students whose careers they watch appear to them to become deteriorated by the constant effort to pass this or that examination, just as we hear of men's brains becoming affected by the daily necessity of catching a train. And Professor Huxley sums up the whole thing in this one short sentence— They work to pass and not to know; and outraged science takes her revenge. They do pass and do not know. So much, my Lords, for the general question of education in the proper sense of the term. I point out opinions. I do not merely give names, but they are the names of most distinguished persons who hold these views which I have endeavoured to summarise. This is one class of arguments against the over-cramming produced by the present examination system; but there is one most important feature of the subject, and that is the effect produced on the health, not only on the present but of the coming generations. Here is what is said upon this matter by medical men of great distinction. One says that— A great increase of nervous affections is due to "—what?—"school examinations, that much brain disease results from over-pressure, and that both home and colonial experience bears this out. Another says— That where there are no counter-athletics the physique is deteriorated. Dr. Avery says— That the effect on girls of over mental strain is great. They grow up highly nervous women, giving birth in case of their marriage to weak and deteriorated offspring. And he goes on to say— The spirit of emulation is stronger in girls than in boys, and makes them work beyond their strength. I was talking to the Rector of St. James's, Mr. Kemp, and he told me that his observations bore that out, for he said "I constantly see howover worked and strained young women pupil teachers are." For a moment I may be forgiven, perhaps, for adding upon this point that as I was coming down to this House in a hansom this afternoon, I found I was being pursued by a brougham and pair which finally overtook me. A medical friend jumped out and said, as he knew I was going to the House to bring forward this subject, he would tell me a very instructive incident bearing upon it. He had been attending a lady who had already added several boys to the population. Her boys had recently gone through some severe competitive examinations. After recovering from the chloroform which had been administered to her, she eagerly asked "Is it a boy or a girl?" On being told it was a boy, she burst into tears and said, "Oh dear, then we shall have all those horrid cramming examinations to go through again." That shows what an influence these examinations have had on people's minds in this country, and how they look forward to modifying them. Dr. Warre, the Master of Eton, spoke in the Letters from all Sorts and Conditions of Men, of there being many more boys at Eton wearing spectacles than there used to be, and that many a bright boy between 12 and 15 becomes blunt and dull from this cause. And we are told that-many more of our distinquished schoolmen die in early life entirely from the results of the work entailed upon them in preparing for these examinations. Now, my Lords, I come to the specific subject of my Motion, namely, whether or not this system is good for the public service, and whether it is the best means that we could adopt for the purpose of giving us efficient public servants. As regards the public service in the Army and Navy, I do not propose to go into that branch of the question. Still, one cannot help thinking there is something wrong in the Army Examinations when one finds what men have to go through. I saw the other day a friend of mine, a captain of Volunteers; we were out shooting, and I thought he looked very much depressed and out-of-sorts. On asking him "What is the matter?" he said, "I have to go up to London for my military examination, and what bothers me is that I have got to sit up all night and learn forty pages by heart; I must not miss a particle or a word of it, and that is where the trouble occurs." I do not think that is a practical way of training men. I think it would be much better to train men in manœuvres and in what they would be called upon to go through in actual warfare. They should be trained for that purpose in the open country, say at Aldershot, and be taught to manœuvre their men under instructing officers, and should be required to show that they had the requisite knowledge of ground. It was not examination that gave us our great generals and admirals of olden times, and, as far as I know, no examination-general has ever had a command yet, except one distinguished officer of the Staff College. As regards generals in command, I do not think any such officers have been in active service, and we have yet to learn whether all that is done in the way of examination in the Army is likely to give us anyone fit to be chosen for it. At any rate, it strikes me that is not the way to make practical soldiers. But, my Lords, it is more especially with the Civil Service that I have to do on the present occasion, and the question is, Does this system of competitive examinations give us the best type or the best men for that service? I happened to be at the Treasury when this system originated. It was in 1852 or 1853 under Lord Aberdeen's Administration; and I well recollect hearing that the whole question of the Civil Service was to be gone into by Sir Charles Trevelyan and a gentleman whom we did not know then at the Treasury. We asked who he was, and we were told that he was a great friend of Mr. Gladstone— by name Sir Stafford Northcote. He was not in Parliament then. That was really the beginning of this new system of Civil Service Examinations. But what was the cause of its origin? It was want of courage on the part of public men and Members of Parliament to enquire into the merits of individuals and to recommend proper persons for admission to the Civil Service; and they thought they would got rid of the whole thing by sending all the candidates to a cram-examination, and so have all responsibility taken off their shoulders.

That was the cause of the system being instituted, and I think your Lordships will not say that it was a good origin. I will say very little, but I hope it will be to the point on this question. Lord Rosebery put the case in a nutshell when he wrote to the Nineteenth Century:— I am deeply impressed with the fact that by the present system we lose many excellent, and obtain many useless men. Another extract from these letters, which I will read to your Lordships is from one by Lady Taylor, the widow of a man well-known to us, Sir Henry Taylor, who was for many years at the Colonial Office. No better public servant I think ever held office. She says:— The present system is torture to the victims and does not supply the best materials. Such, she says, was her husband's; opinion; and he said that— If our present system had been in force in 1824, he never would himself have got into the Civil Service. And Lady Taylor says:— In such case the State would have lost 50 years' service from one of its best, as he was generally recognised, Civil servants. Moreover, a point which I would bring particularly to your Lordships' attention is that we do not carry this principle out to the full. It is only appointments in the lower branches of the Public Service that are put up for competition and examination. Cabinet Ministers are not so chosen; Judges are not so appointed; the Right Reverend Bench is not so filled; professors, one and all, are not so chosen. I go further, and ask would any of your Lordships be content to choose your land agent who works for you, or even the odd men working about your house, by such a system as this of competitive examination? Take for instance the Cabinet—I do not say the present Cabinet, but almost any other Cabinet Ministers who have ever held office, would they if that office had to be filled by examination have been able to assert their right to the positions they held? Certain I am, I may say, of one who would have been so qualified, and that is the present Prime Minister. I well remember being told by an Oxford man, the son of the late General Peel, in the course of a conver- sation about Oxford—"We have at the present moment the future Prime Minister at Oxford." I asked, what is his name? and he said "Robert Cecil." Therefore I have no doubt that if there had been necessity for it my noble Friend the Prime Minister would have succeeded in putting himself in the front in any competitive examination. But there is a very important branch of the Civil Service which we are told suffers greatly by this system, and that is the Indian Civil Service. In India you have races who are extremely intelligent, who know the sort of men who go out there; they draw comparison between the Civil servants of pre-examination times and those who are appointed by special examinations; and they say that there is deterioration in many respects, in many qualities—I will not say precisely what they are—but qualities which are essential for governing those races. They see that manifest deterioration and falling off. Nothing can be stronger than the expression used in a published letter of Sir William Gregory, than whom there is, I think your Lordships will agree, no greater authority as a highly cultured man. He lays the greatest possible stress on the deterioration in the Indian Civil servants and the danger arising from it; he hopes there may be some remedy found for this, as he considers, very pressing and immediate danger; and he speaks most strongly of the necessity for some security being taken for the choice of men fit to deal with and be entrusted with the government of highly intellectual races. Now, all I shall say further upon this subject is in reference to the concluding part of my Motion in regard to how far the system now adopted in this country prevails abroad. I am desired to ask that an inquiry should be made into the working of foreign systems. I find that there is no competition in any of the 26 States of Germany in the sense of our competitive examinations in England. They have qualifying examinations for categories and posts in which success is essential. In fact the English system obtains nowhere in Europe except in France; and what says M. Yves Guyot upon the subject? He writes— La protestation est juste; si elle est juste en Angleterre, à plus forte raison l'est elle en France, où nous sommes tous des petits Mandarins, qui n'avons la permission de devenir quelque chose qu'après avoiréte broyé par un tas de laminoirs qu'on appelle des examens et des concours, et tout est demandé à la mémoire, rien au jugement, où le mieux noté est celui qui a le mieux retenu la lecon du maître et n'a jamais pensé pour lui-même. He says if this protest which we are making is right in England, it is even more so in France, where they are all "petty-Mandarins," who have not permission to become anything except after being crushed by examinations and competition, where everything is asked of the memory and nothing of the judgment. And he says of those examinations, that the man who gets the most marks is he who has best retained the lessons he has learned from his master and has never thought for himself. The American view of the subject also bears out that which I venture to set before your Lordships from the protest. From letters published in New York, it appears that this question is being raised in that country also. A New York publication which is headed "Examination and Education," published by Leonard, states that President Adams, of Cornell University, says:— From his own experience the best work was done where there was the largest freedom; the least satisfactory where there was the most rigid system of examination and marks. The German method is superior to the English; American experience accords with the German. Professor Thompson, of the University of Pennsylvania, writes:— Thus far we have avoided the worst defects of the Englsh system. We have kept examinations in the hands of teachers, which minimises cramming. Chancellor Sims, of Syracuse University, declares the whole system of prizes and scholarships and other honours on examination to be vicious and hurtful. And Professor Rogers, of Harvard College, says:— It is almost a truism since the days of Matthew Arnold that in Germany, the land of few examinations, scholarship has touched a mark far beyond that reached in England, where an examination begins and concludes everything. My Lords, I have nothing more to quote to you in opposition to the present system of cramming-examinations, but as my object in moving for this Commission is that in doing so both sides of the question should be brought before the House, so that your Lordships may decide which is right and which is wrong, I think it is right that I should now say a few words on the other side. A reply to that protest has appeared in the Nineteenth Century, and I think I may say that the general answer given is that examination and competition act as a stimulus to candidates to work, and that without it not one in tan, or even one in a hundred, would work for learning's sake. Lord Thring, in his answer to one of the published letters, also says that he does not think you can get boys to learn for learning's sake, and that you must give a stimulus in the shape of scholarships and prizes, or perhaps, as he says, even a stimulus behind. What he means by that I will not attempt to explain. Then they say in defence of this system that there is no other means of avoiding favouritism in appointments to public offices than by throwing them open to competition. That was the very reason why, as I have told your Lordships, this vicious system was first introduced. This necessity, I grieve to say, is considered to be much greater now under a Government of the democracy than ever it was under a Government conducted by a bloated aristocracy. Let me give the House a very short summary of the view of, I suppose, one of the chief of crammers—Mr. Scoon, a man of extreme ability, who has done good service in getting young men forward for examination. He sends foxes into the Philistines' corn. He does not mince matters in answering his opponents, and he says that the agitation against examination is due to the unendowed coach; that a private tutor is rarely consulted before the University course for better or worse is closed, by which enthusiasm is kindled not so much for the acquisition of knowledge as for the objects of knowledge; that it is the University men and not the coaches who swamp the country with detestable primers, summaries, and digests which supply the place of larger works, and the use of which deprives the candidates of the power of thinking out even the value of an adjective; that injury is done to health by examinations; that the unendowed coach represents the survival of the fittest; and that high-class candidates are successful without the aid of tips. My Lords, I have now stated both the arguments against and those in favour of the present system. There have also appeared in the publications to which I have referred and in the letters of different kinds from which I have quoted, suggestions as to what should be done in the way of remedy for the defects which the writers themselves see. For, mark, in all this correspondence, in all the remarks of those who defend the existing system, they do not defend it exactly as it is. They defend examination, they defend competition; but they do not defend the examinations-as they are now conducted, for I think, almost without exception, they say reform of some kind is wanted. The difficulty is for them to find what the change should be; they do not see their way, and meantime they are content to more or less let things alone. Still, if they do not ask for, they are not opposed to the appointment of a Commission of Inquiry, and in that way they hope that some outlet will be found. Of those suggestions I have noted a few. They mainly resolve themselves into qualified selection, limiting and controlling appointments by examination. All educational examinations of pupils, it is again strongly recommended, should be conducted by-teachers with an independent assessor. Then grants of luoney to deserving-students are recommended without examination, and on the recommendation of college and school authorities, rather than awards of scholarships and prizes by competitive examination. Others again think that physical tests should be added to examinations, and that marks should be allowed for them. Lord Lytton wishes the Public Service to be supplied by qualification, subject, if possible, to selection, while Lord Derby is of opinion that some substitute for competitive examinations is required which would give equally free opportunities to all. Lord Carnarvon says there is nothing like the old Oxford University honors system; and no man is more entitled to speak of that system than Lord Carnarvon, who under it distinguished himself so much at the University. He also says he would be in favour of nomination with a high qualifying test, as in the Foreign Office. Lord Pembroke says there should be a pass-examination put at whatever height you choose, and then there should be physique tests. In Holland there is a system existing which is said to work: extremely well. For public appointments there is a qualifying examination, with a nomination of candidates to the qualifying examination from the universities and schools. When the nominations are vested in the universities and schools, there would be much less chance of jobbery than if they were in the hands of public officials. Now, my Lords, my task is at an end, and, as I have said, it is not a responsibility which I have taken upon myself. I am simply the mouthpiece of others. I will only say I wish that, in addition to what I have been able to state with regard to the views of distinguished persons, I could bring any experience of my own to bear upon this matter of examination; but I recollect hearing, many years ago, that the grandfather of one of your Lordships once said, "He thanked God he was born before that scoundrel Jenner adulterated the race." And I, for my part, thank God that I was born before men were put, as they are now, under this torturing examination harrow. My examinations at Oxford were very much the same, I have no doubt, as those of many of my noble Friends—on entering the University for the Little-Go, and for one's Degree. I am happy to say that is the whole amount of examination to which I have ever been subjected; and my first examination, on entrance into the University, was, I recollect, not very formidable. I was marched up the Hall where all the tutors stood in a row, into the presence of the Dean, and the Dean simply put one very searching question to me—"How is your father?" I supposed I answered that question very satisfactorily, for I was instantly passed and became entitled to all the privileges of the University. I cannot, therefore, my Lords, thank God, speak to the working of these examinations from personal experience; but I think I have Said enough, quoting from these authorities, some of them among the most distinguished men in the land, who have expressed their views on this subject. I hope I have convinced your Lord that this question is a very vital one; that it not only affects the intellectual progress and education of the nation, but that it affects the national health in the present, and possibly that of generations yet unborn. We are told that it is not the best way of obtaining our public servants, and there is no other country in Europe except France in which this system prevails. I hope, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government will take this matter into their serious consideration, not necessarily from anything that I have said, but on account of the interest which is taken in the question at the present time by the public as manifested by the opinions to which I have referred. From what I have been told, I believe that the granting of this Commission is not impossible, and that it is not viewed at all with disfavour by the head of Her Majesty's Government. It is in that hope and in that belief that I have brought the matter forward, not speaking for myself, but for those who have desired that I should bring the subject under your Lordships' consideration. I have, in conclusion, to apologise for taking up so much of your Lordships time.

Moved, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty to be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into and report upon the whole subject of official appointments by examination, and to collect information bearing on the matter from other countries."—(The Lord Wemyss, E. Wemyss,)

THE BISHOP OF CARLISLE

My Lords, as an old examiner, and not in my episcopal capacity, I should like to say a few words upon this subject. Looking round upon your Lordships' House I can see the face of certainly one noble Lord whom it was my privilege and duty in old times to examine. I daresay there may be others present, for I have examined a good many. With regard to the articles in the Nineteenth Century, to which the noble Earl has referred, I may say that I am not one of those who signed the protest. I was desirous of doing so, but felt myself unable to sign it as I thought it went too far. But I contributed one of the articles which have been referred to, and if I rightly remember it was the last word in the discussion upon the subject. Although unable to sign the protest, I do not rise for the purpose of opposing the Motion of the noble Earl. With the general purpose of that Motion I entirely agree; but, as the noble Karl did not speak as an expert on the subject of examinations, I think it desirable to point out the distinction between examinations as a mode of entrance to the Public Service and of testing capacity for well-paid work, and the use of examinations as a distinct part of education. I maintain, and I think any one with University experience will support me in saying, that examinations are a necessary part of a regular education. With regard to the subject to which I especially devoted my own attention at Cambridge— mathematics—examination was the very backbone of the educational system. It is the best way of first getting knowledge into a man, and then getting it out of him; seeing whether he is competent to reproduce that knowledge which has been put into him. As to the notion of a man being merely crammed for a time and then having, upon the strength of his memory, to produce a certain amount of knowledge, that is a mere caricature of that which is the real system of teaching and of which examination is the test. A certain amount of knowledge is put into a man, and it is only by examination that you can find out whether he is competent to reproduce the knowledge which has been imparted to him. Examination is the test that a man has understood what he has learnt, and that he is able to reproduce it in a clear and suitable way. But beyond that, I venture to say that it is not the mere reproduction of knowledge that is first put into a man that is required, but both with regard to classics and mathematics the most important portions of them are just those things which a man has to evolve out of his intellect, and which he cannot possibly get from any books beforehand. In the case of classical examinations, every one knows that certainly at Cambridge the chief stress is laid on original composition—it may be verses, or it may be Latin prose or translation; but it is perfectly impossible, from the nature of things, that that could ever have been crammed into a man. With regard to mathematics, the great object of the examiners is so to frame their questions in reference to book work as that they shall test a man's thorough knowledge of what he has been doing, and make it impossible for him by mere cram to rise to any high place in the tripos. Examination and cram are often taken as if they were correlative terms; but the great effort of Cambridge examination was, as far as possible, to dissociate those two things. Anything at all in the nature of cram was at once marked in black by the examiners, and every effort was made to throw cram into the background and to give the marks and the honours to those who showed that they had not been crammed, but that they understood what they had learnt, and who showed by the manner in which they worked their problems that they knew what they had been doing. There seems to be a great tendency, because examination seems to have partially failed with regard to certain applications of it, to bar examination altogether. I entirely approve of what has been said by the noble Lord—I believe it was a quotation from Professor Huxley—that examination is a good servant but a bad master. I have no doubt that is so; but while we disclaim it as a master, let us make it our servant. Let us make it the handmaid of education and the test of knowledge, but let us suppress as strongly as possible the notion of any real connection between examination and cram. The noble Lord has wisely confined himself to one particular portion of the subject; he has not asked for a Royal Commission to inquire into the question of examinations in general. It seems to me that the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, consisting of men who are experts in this matter, and who are most laboriously and conscientiously devoting themselves to the question how examinations can best be managed and how they can be made best to answer their purposes, might well be let alone. I think they understand their business better than any Royal Commission can teach it to them, and it is much better to allow them to work out their own problem in their own way. With regard, however, to official appointments by examination, that seems to me to be a subject which deserves to be looked into. If one may believe all that one hears about the results of these examinations, I think there is a great deal which may be very properly inquired into; and, therefore, while I speak strongly of the benefit of examination and the possibility of entirely dissociating it from cram, I am entirely with the noble Lord in the Motion he has made.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK)

My Lords, the noble Lord who has addressed you with so much ability on this subject has in his speech combined a number of subjects which hardly seem to be appropriate to the object of the particular Motion itself. My noble Friend appears to have had a limited experience of examinations, and his experience was a very pleasant one I should imagine, for a young man going up at Oxford simply to be asked about his father's health could not be very trying. I am sure, however, that you could hardly put that forward as a system which could either be preserved in Universities or which, if preserved, would conduce to the advantage of the Universities generally. With reference to the three very distinguished men whose views he has put forward, Mr. Knowles, Mr. Auberon Herbert, and Mr. Frederick Harrison, I think, without any disrespect to them, I may say they are not without what some people call crotchets, or, at all events, hobbies, which they ride with some violence. With regard to the passages which have been quoted by my noble Friend, I regret to say that I am not so extensively read as himself nor have I refreshed my memory as to those passages, but I certainly do remember that there was a long controversy in the Nineteenth Century with regard to this subject of examinations. The right rev. Prelate who has addressed your Lordships' House has, I think, shown you that examinations for prizes, scholarships, and degrees, are absolutely requisite, or else the Universities would become of little or no advantage. Everything that has gone on in this country recently has been in the direction of stimulating education by offering open scholarships, and making prizes more open than they formerly were, so as to bring forward those of special ability for whom the Colleges have almost contested. I am far from saying, nor do I think it necessary to the argument to say, that the number of examinations at the Universities do not strike one with surprise, remembering what formerly took place, and comparing them with the period at which one was studying at a University one's self. At that time there was the "Little-go" or responsions, and there were no doubt what were called College Examinations at the end of the term but no examinations for degrees either when going in for pass or for moderations and then final honours. I think my noble Friend was speaking not of the official examinations to which his Motion is directed, but rather of the examinations within the Universities themselves, which are continually going on. In fact, whenever I have been at Oxford I have found that the new schools in High Street there are pretty well occupied by those who are being examined for something or other in that place, which was certainly not the case before. We are apt to forget the state of things which existed formerly when Sir Stafford Northcote and Mr. Trevelyan began their movement, though that was not done by themselves alone, one being a private secretary, the other being employed as everybody knows, in an official capacity. At that time to which my noble Friend has referred, it was not thought that the system in existence was a good one, and I cannot imagine that it was only with the view of getting rid of the responsibility of nomination that Ministers consented to the change which then took place. I do not say that it does not interest myself as a Minister to be free from nominations, which was the system formerly, and I think that many must have the same feeling. The selection of individuals is a very invidious task, particularly for offices, which should be open to all. It seems a hard thing that when five or six boys at a school, all equally capable, all equally educated, and all equally brought up as gentlemen, you should exclude five of them from particular offices because the sixth has influential connections. It seems a hard thing that five of such boys must be excluded from the competition and from the chance of obtaining a particular appointment because they had no connection with the Minister, and no connection with anybody who could give the appointment. This system of open competition, therefore, is not a thing which has come about suddenly, but it has grown. In the first place, there were test examinations, and eventually competition followed, and I think the effect of those examinations, judging from the results, has not been so bad as my noble Friend supposed, for one office after another has come voluntarily under this system, and many offices which are not under the Orders in Council still call upon the Civil Service Commissioners to undertake the examination of their clerks with a view to obtaining efficient Civil servants. Therefore, I say, that this system of open competition has sprung up gradually of itself. In a few moments I will show what Parliament has done, rather differing from the view of my noble Friend, though I quite admit that this question has exercised men's minds very much, and that eminent men have taken different views on the subject. My noble Friend went on to speak of the Scotch Code, and gave all the credit for it to my noble Friend the Secretary for Scotland, and he is entitled to a great deal, but, at the same time, I would point out that we in England have taken the same course, and that I am as responsible for what has been done in Scotland as my noble Friend (Lord Lothian). I do not quite see, however, the bearing of this upon the question before us. I go back to that, and if I thought that this system were destructive of all real education, as my noble Friend says, I should be the last to resist his Motion. I do not say that it may not require great modifications, and indeed constant modifications have been going on. The Departments have boon in constant communication with the Civil Service Commissioners not only with the view to render the examinations such as will secure candidates fitted for their particular Departments, but will also ensure that the knowledge possessed is not the result of a system of cram. In fact, the first object put forward was to insist upon a thorough education. The main object of the entrance examination, it is to be borne in mind, is to secure the selections of youths which have had a thoroughly well grounded liberal education as English gentlemen; and what I want to contend for is that the Civil Service Commissioners secure that end while they do not exclude youths possessing the ordinary education which gentlemen get. For you will find it is a remarkable fact that in a great number of cases in which Universities and schools send up their candidates, they are largely suc- cessful, not in consequence of having gone upon a system of cram, but from having adopted a system of what is called a liberal education fitted for gentlemen both at school and in College. I quite agree that the object ought to be that those which have been reading specially for those examinations, should not be taken out of the ordinary course of education which will qualify them for any other position; and the system which the Civil Service Commissioners adopt is, I think, well qualified to attain that end. For instance, in the lower branches of the Civil Service Examinations to which candidates are admitted no one can say that the examinations are of such a character as to induce an education different from that which would qualify a man for any ordinary position as a merchant or shopkeeper or anything else in London or any of our cities. But with regard to the higher class examinations, if my noble friend had looked into the subjects which are examined upon, and the care with which they are selected, I think he would have seen that there was nothing which would tend to encourage cram, but that it was intended and everything was done to encourage the acquirement of a liberal education at universities and schools. There have always been at the universities and outside men with special qualifications, who are able, as it were, to whip up their pupils for examination for good degrees or for positions which they desire to attain. There is no doubt that there are unendowed persons who have adopted their own course in these matters, and have shown themselves specially qualified in that way, but those persons are not the examiners, and therefore no suspicion of favouritism can be attributed to them in regard to those whom they coach, who undergo the same examination, and whose only advantage is that they have received the help and stimulus of the unendowed tutors. I do not think the object of my friend is to interfere with the system of education, and I do not understand him to say that these examinations for special purposes do interfere more with the system of education than the examinations for prizes and certificates, which he seemed to think so injuriously affect the minds and physique of those who are subjected to them. That point has been answered by the Right Rev. Prelate, and I think I need not further dwell upon it. But let me quote from the late Report of the Civil Service Commissioners for the purpose of showing what are their own views upon this question of liberal education. They say that for themselves they are fully sensible of the great responsibility which is imposed upon them, and that they will strive by constant vigilance so to administer the system as to encourage a liberal measure of instruction, in order to ensure that those candidates only shall succeed whose knowledge has been thoroughly and intelligently acquired. And when we consider who the Civil Service Commissioners are, we find among them Sir George Dasent and Mr. Courthope—one of the most distinguished literary men of the day and a man highly qualified for the post he occupies. I know more of him than of Sir G. Dasent, but everyone who knows Mr. Courthope knows that he is singularly qualified for the post he holds, and that he is the last man in the world to allow a system of real education to be eclipsed by a system of cram which should lead to the carrying away of prizes by those who had not received a thorough, true, and liberal education, as he says himself. Then my noble Friend speaks of health, and on that point I am a little surprised. I do not deny for a moment that the great competitive strain to which people are subjected in these days, not only in schools or in official examinations, but in the tremendous struggle for existence and for a competency which is going on in this country, has to some extent increased the prevalence of nervous disorders, and has had in that way an injurious effect upon people's brains. The only question is whether the undisturbed brain is so valuable an article that the risk of disturbing it should not be run for the purpose of arriving at higher qualifications. I do not find from my own experience that people's health and minds are to any large degree affected by these examinations in schools, colleges, and universities. In the Commissioners' Report there is given a summary for the first 30 years of the system. In the first 30 years they state that there were 123,000 entries for examination. My Lords, think of the trouble which Ministers have been saved. There were nominated 26,675, and entries for open competition 291,521. The reason I give the full figures is to show how many were affected in health. Even upon the strict medical examination made of candidates the number was only 2,363, or not 1 per cent. Therefore, your Lordships see that those who had prepared themselves for these examinations or competitions had not absolutely destroyed their health, and one knows that among such large numbers there must be youths who have inherited disorders. That seems to be the effect of these competitive examinations. You will find in the last Report of the Civil Service Commissioners a letter from Sir Andrew Clark with respect to the Indian competitions, for which lie had been medical examiner, expressing the opinion that those who passed for the Indian Civil Service did not appear to suffer in their health, though I believe the Indian Civil Service examination is as severe as any. But though he does not find that they suffer in their health, he finds, curiously enough, that there is a particular form of disorder—rather disagreeable to talk of perhaps—albuminuria, which comes on at the critical moment of examination, arising apparently from nervous excitement, and to which those possessing highly nervous constitutions are liable. However, he finds that when the examinations are over that passes off in a few days, and does not materially affect the candidate afterwards. I think, my Lords, we may pass on with the subject as far as the official examinations are concerned. With regard to the general question of health, I would ask have we become a nation so puny and unhealthy that we have no longer either muscles or strength enough for such a strain, as would appear from the statement of my noble Friend? The complaint is generally the other way: the complaint is that we are becoming a nation of athletes, and there never was a time when athleticism was so prevalent as at present in our colleges and schools and among our youth. Those who have been the most celebrated at Cambridge and Oxford as athletes have taken the highest places and honours in the Oxford Classes and the Tripos at Cambridge. And so with regard to the Judges and those who have held high office in this country. My noble Friend says that neither we, as Ministers, nor the Judges are put to examination. The Judges have to go through a long trial; it is true they have not to go through the trial of an examination extending over several days, both oral and written, but they have to make their reputation as men of ability, as lawyers able to state facts and deal with them—certainly they have to show their competency in law. So, again, with regard to those who adorn the Bench on which my right rev. Friend sits, there is not one who rises without examination: they have had to show their qualifications before the period when they wore elevated to the Bench. With regard to my own position I will say nothing—or I will only say this, that nothing would be less to my taste than to be put to an examination test by the Civil Service Commissioners. When I was at the Home Office I remember a very curious incident occurring in reference to this subject. I was called upon to appoint an Inspector of Mines, and I wrote to the great College at Newcastle to recommend somebody. They sent me back the name of a man who they said knew everything about mines, who was consulted upon all mining questions throughout the country as an authority, was thoroughly acquainted with everything connected with the ventilation of mines, and whom they said I might safely appoint. Well, I appointed him, and he went before the Civil Service Commissioners for examination. He was plucked because, as lie said, he had totally forgotten all the things he knew when he was 22, but that at 42 his mind had been carried far beyond what he knew then, and he said it was unreasonable to call upon a man at his age, and after so long an experience to undergo a Civil Service examination. I agree, but that was at a very early period of this system; things are now conducted in a very different manner; but I know it happened in that particular case that after having appointed two men, both eminent engineers in the North, who were both plucked, the Commissioners at last passed a young man of the greatest distinction, but they again complained that he was not quite 25. I replied—"This will not do, if he is not 25 he is very near it." Then they said they would pass him, but that his pension would only reckon from his 25th year. He was then appointed, and I believe has been acting with great success ever since. I only mention that, my Lords, to show that with regard to examinations they should be adapted in some sense to the kind of men who are called upon to undergo them, and it no doubt requires a great deal of skill to conduct them properly. My noble Friend spoke with some disrespect, I think, of those who had gone to India. I have myself had a little experience with regard to Indian matters, and I never heard complaints made on that subject. On more than one occasion inquiries have been made by Government into the working of the competitive system, with the result of ascertaining that the system has produced men many of whom have acquired a reputation for administrative capacity of a high order. With regard to Indian Civil Servants, I can only say that they are men who are eminently qualified to perform the duties called for from them. I can quote from the Reports of the Director of Military Examinations to the same effect; and, in fact, the Civil Service examinations have been conducted with the view of getting the best men, because it has been found that we have no means of getting them in any other way. I do not wish to be in the least misunderstood in this matter. I can quite understand the arguments of my noble Friend and his supporters with regard to avoiding the responsibility of nomination, but he is mistaken if he supposes that character is not now tested. The subject of character is closely inquired into by the Civil Service Commissioners, and there were over 2,000 rejected on that ground, and not allowed to go in for the examinations, as appears in their Report to which I have adverted. That shows that there is supervision exercised with regard to character. My Lords, after all this, what have we to do with a Royal Commission? I cannot myself understand the arguments for a new inquiry of that kind. There is a perpetual inquiry going on. What good purpose would be served by appointing another Commission? There are no facts with regard to what is done in foreign countries, which cannot readily be procured by the Foreign Office, as to this subject and all matters connected with it. The Army examination of the Belgians is referred to in the Appendix to the last Report of the Civil Service Commission, and anything else of that sort can be readily procured. Have there been no inquiries upon the subject? Has not this subject been inquired into again and again? In 185;! there was Sir Stafford Northcote's Commission; then in 1855 there was au Order in Council which began the system; and in 1856 there was a Resolution of the House of Commons in favour of it. Then in 1859 there was the superannuation measure, that no one who had not a certificate should receive a pension. In 1860 there was a Select Committee of the House of Commons appointed upon these subjects. Then there was another Order in Council in 1870 upon which practically they are now acting. Since that time there has been the Playfair Commission, and now there is the Ridley Commission, which has to consider this question incidentally, and which has found, in fact, that a great many of the pupils are too good for the post for which they go up to be examined; and that really you have put razors to cat blocks. The standard may be altered in order to answer the objection that many of the Lower Division clerks have really higher qualifications than men in the Higher Division. Now, after all these things, what is it my noble Friend wants? He wants a Commission on which we must put, I suppose, representatives of different opinions, who will not report unanimously. Suppose we put on a Commission Mr. Frederick Harrison on the one side, and some person who tikes a totally different view on the other, what would be the result? You would have simply no Report whatever, or an imperfect Report, and we should be just where we are. My Lords, I am convinced of this: that with an Executive deeply interested in having the offices well filled, and interested in exercising the vigilant superintendence which it exercises now, I fail to see the need of any inquiry such as is suggested by the noble Earl; and it is a remarkable thing, when you consider how every subject is brought before Parliament, that nothing has been brought forward against the system as one bringing into office persons who are unfitted for their duties. No attack has been made upon the system on the ground of the unfairness in the examinations, or of injustice done to individuals. Of course, there will always be among great numbers of persons black sheep. Though the majority are white sheep there will always be some black ones, whether the system adopted be nomination or competition. I believe, in the absence of any such charges against the present system, that a new Royal Commission would throw no greater light on the subject. Let us inquire, if you please, into the subject of education, and how we can give a better stimulus to it in regard to those who are to fill official positions. If, on the other hand, there be anything in the system which conduces to ill-health, let us have statistics-on the subject, and not act upon suggestions such as that put forward by my noble Friend, whose medical acquaintance got out of his brougham to tell him the interesting fact which he narrated. It did not seem to be of much importance upon this point, because the-particular effect to which he had just been referring was the effect upon girls, and therefore a girl was more likely to be subject than a boy to the effects of the system which he so much deplores. My Lords, I believe that without any further Commission you have already full means of arriving at a just conclusion on this subject; and therefore, with great respect to my noble Friend, I must answer that I cannot accede to his request for a Commission.

LORD TEYNHAM

My Lords, I think you will allow that my noble Friend made an exceedingly good point when he referred to the athletic part of the argument of the noble Earl. I wish the noble Viscount had been as successful, as he certainly was eloquent, in attempting to deal with the numerous other points which were put by the noble Earl. It would be a most satisfactory thing to the public could this-matter be dealt with successfully once for all, and as I think every great question ought to be dealt with, by an able Minister like the noble Viscount, competent to lead public opinion, and to give to public opinion that guidance which the people of this country expect to-receive, not only upon this, but every other important question. My Lords, it is very curious, indeed, to see how many inconsistent opinions there are among eminent men, themselves connected with the work of education, upon this subject. I was very glad to hear from the noble Earl that Dr. Warre had given his views against the present abuse of examinations. The last time I looked at an Eton list, and that is not very long ago, I found that the Rev. Dr. was not only examining in the old-fashioned manner, hut was actually examining every boy for every division he had to enter, and if he did not pass affixed the sign of a minus quantity against his name. I hope that has been abolished, and that the opinion of the Rev. Dr. has been changed. Then there is the question of Public Schools. I am acquainted with one which is, perhaps, rather more a proprietary school which is greatly patronised by the upper Middle Class, and I know what happens to the boys who are at a too early age over-educated in that school. They are sent up to the Universities, there to obtain scholarships, and they obtain nothing else because they are worked out; and I am not at all sure that that is not an advantage to them considering the present condition of the Universities. I am not speaking of what they were formerly, but of what they are now, even when the positions of distinction in them have been so very highly filled. My Lords, what are they? Instead of the old educating subjects—the classics and mathematics—we have all kinds of "ologies." Your Lordships know the term which is applied to these other subjects. They are subjects which are harmless enough; but if they do not precisely educate, they are not of any distinct advantage to the persons who are examined. Subjects like Political Economy and Modern History, with which the Universities have nothing to do, are substituted for real educational work. As for the origin of this system which the noble Lord pointed out, I am not at all surprised to find that Sir Stafford North cote was in favour of this kind of examination, because it is within my knowledge that Sir Stafford Northcote, in order, I suppose, to assist himself in his Parliamentary work, went to a celebrated Professor of Mnemonics and studied under him, and probably he thought as he had derived benefit from that kind of instruction it would be of advantage for examinees and would assist them in the same manner. Now, the next point is one to which I desire particularly to call your Lordships' attention. The noble Earl, quoting Lord Thring, said that he contended that school examinations were absolutely necessary, simply because a large majority of the boys would not work unless they had a stimulus before them or a stimulus behind. My Lords, I question that, and I think they might be made to work. It might be made a necessity of their school time that they should work—it was so in the time of our grandfathers. The man who I consider injured and ruined more than any other the education of England was the late Dr. Valpy of Reading School. He took it into his head—it was one of the follies of the wise—that grammars ought to be written not in a learned language, but in English. Before his time the old Eton grammar was written in Latin, and not only so, but Latin was the language spoken in every school where a gentleman was educated. A boy never addressed his master except in Latin, nor would any boy even address his schoolfellows except in Latin, and the consequence was that in those days a Lower Fifth Form boy would have a more competent knowledge of that most difficult art, Latin Prose Composition, than anyone now, except perhaps Archdeacon Denison. As to the right rev. Prelate saying that the Universities know their own business best, and do not want to be guided by a Royal Commission, I happen to have seen the actual marks which were given by four examiners to a very eminent man with whom I am acquainted, in giving him a First Class in Classics, and they differed so widely and absurdly in the marks which they gave for exactly the same work that it shook my faith in University examiners, and it shakes my faith now when the right rev. Prelate tells us that the Universities know their own business best.

EARL GRANVILLE

My Lords, I do not wish to prolong this discussion further than to express my very great relief at hearing the speech made by my noble Friend the Lord President of the Council, for I understood the noble Earl to say that he brought forward this motion with the support of Her Majesty's Government. It is a subject in which I have always taken a great interest. My noble Friend began by an allusion to a cook, but I can assure him that no cook of mine ever presented to me an ox in the shape of a pill; though with great culinary skill he has himself presented to us all the arguments which we have heard during the last 25 years against the admission of Civil servants to appointments by competitive examination. At the end of his long speech he stated his justification in bringing- this subject before us was that lie had the support of the head of Her Majesty's Government, and I own I trembled when the noble Viscount rose to address your Lordships, because I feared that we might be going back to a system which cannot be restored in place of a system which has answered very well indeed. It has always seemed to me that in order to have a Royal Commission the first thing is to show a necessity for it, and it is for my noble Friend to show that in this case there has been a deterioration in the personnel of Civil servants either in this country or in India. Some proof that that has been the result of the present system ought to have been given, and I believe there is no proof whatever of the sort. The noble Earl has not suggested mort than others have done who have at ticked this system, though giving- us, in a more tangible way, the desires which have been expressed for modification of details. The question is, what is the most certain mode of enabling us to secure the best men, whether by selection, by a competitive examination, or by leaving it entirely in the hands of Departments to fill up vacancies as they arise? The noble Lord made a comparison between Bishops, Judges, and statesmen. I think he might have said a little more about statesmen, for they have a great tussle to go through before they become Cabinet Ministers—a very great tussle indeed. I remember a joke of Lord Palmerston, who was once asked whether a man was fit for an office to which he had been appointed, and he replied, "I have generally found that when a fellow has been clever enough to get a political office he is clever enough to perform the duties of it." There is no doubt that political men have a much better and safer test than any mere literary examination could possibly put them through. Judges and Bishops are appointed, it is true, by selection, but in the case of such appointments the great responsibility rests upon the Prime Minister, or the head of a Department who makes the appointments; and if he makes a bad appointment, he is perfectly sure to hear of it directly through the organs of public opinion; the appointment is criticised, and he has at once to accept the responsibility. Now, what is the position of the political head of a great Department? Has he time himself to really examine into all the qualifications of the numbers of young men of 18 or 19 who are desirous of filling the office? I venture to say that he has not, and if he makes a mistake in making the appointment he has to admit the responsibility, though it may not be brought against him for eight or ten years afterwards. I believe there is no possibility of the head of a Department himself selecting young men, and the result must be, for human nature continues the same, that if you give the power to heads of Departments to make appointments to offices, the power will be exercised almost always at the dictates of political Whips in the House of Commons, or at the request of Peers who discharge similar duties in your Lordships' House; or at the suggestion of political friends. I have no doubt that we should all like to have an easier opportunity of providing for sons who are not quite so intelligent as we should wish them to be, and that may account, perhaps, for some of the attacks which have been made upon the system of competitive examinations. What the right rev. Prelate has slid is perfectly true with regard to distinguishing between real and forced education—we ought to make a distinction between cramming and real education. I do not think the word "cram" is a very admirable word. Students may be crammed in such a way as that they learn only the questions which they are likely to be asked, or they may not, and it depends entirely upon the character of these examinations whether they are successful or not in securing the best men. The noble Lord brought forward the instance of Sir Henry Taylor, who declared that he would never have been able to get into the Colonial Office if there had been a competitive examination at the beginning. I entirely agree with the noble Lord that I never knew a better permanent Civil servant than Sir Henry Taylor; but there are other authorities than Sir Henry Taylor, and I am justified, I think, in not taking his authority upon the subject of what he would or could not have done when he was a young man, because I am perfectly certain that if he had known that his admission into the Public Service depended upon his showing that he possessed a certain amount of education, he would have succeeded in satisfying the requirements of the tests. Another thing which your Lordships do not know, but which Lord Kimberley does, with regard to the question of clerks, is that Sir Henry Taylor was not quite so good an authority as will be supposed, for he was in such an exceptional position that he almost to the end of his life continued to do some of the most valuable work in the Colonial Office, but for 15 years of the time he never saw it, living 70 miles away as he did. My Lords, I really am glad that the noble Lord opposite has spoken on behalf of the Government as clearly as he has done, but I think if a case of deterioration had been made out, or if a case had been made out as to the destruction of health, it would have been a very difficult thing; but if no case of that kind does exist, I think it would be perfectly wrong of Her Majesty's Government to give encouragement to the notion that the valuable system now existing, though it may be open to improvement, is likely to be upset by the Report of a Royal Commission.

THE EARL OF DUNDONALD

My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Earl whether, in the event of his succeeding in his Motion, he would include the entrance and other examinations to the Army within the scope of it. I think your Lordships will agree that in no branch of the Public Service is it so necessary to have men of initiative and readiness of resource as in the Army. By the present system of examination, the memory of a candidate is made the most important factor, and we know that many men of small memory, but of great readiness of resource, would under the present system be prevented from entering Her Majesty's Service. I am sure most of your Lordships must have among your acquaintance's many men who have failed in passing the preliminary examinations for the Army, but who are, above all, the most fitted to lead troops in action. I do not wish to make a speech on the subject. I came here not knowing that it was to be brought forward, but I desire to call attention to the examinations in regard to men who are entering the Services. The noble Viscount made some remark to the effect that he was not aware that these examinations have a bad effect on men's health, but I know men personally who have told mo they have been made ill by having to undergo the examinations. I trust, therefore, that the noble Earl will, if he succeed in his-Motion, include the Army examinations in the scope of it. In my own branch of the Service, the Cavalry, there were in former days four or five men deep waiting for commissions, but at the present time, or at all events a short time ago, there was hardly a Cavalry Regiment in the Service which was not short of officers, while hundreds of men who would make most excellent Cavalry officers, second to none in the world, are idle and doing nothing The object of an examination for the Public Service is to get the very best men possible to serve the country, and even it it be difficult to fill vacancies it is impossible to be too particular as to the men who present themselves and who are passed. In the Army now, according to a recent regulation, reports are made upon subalterns after, I think, throe years' service, by the senior officers. I am afraid that any report of that kind will be more or less a dead-letter, because when a subaltern joins a regiment he may, as regards acquirements, stand as fair; he may pass, and may be quite good enough to go on at first; and it is a very difficult position to put senior officers in who are perhaps friends of the young man, who may be quite passable in every way, to say that they shall block him out from the Service. I believe that, as regards the Army, the effect of this provision, under which yon can in that way get rid of an officer after three years' service, will be that you will only get rid of the most glaring instances of in competency. My Lords, I will conclude by again hoping that the noble Lord will proceed with his Motion, and that he will include the Army in it.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

My Lords, before the noble Earl answers, I would like to say a few words. I do not wish to enter into the general discussion, but only to touch upon the subject as far as it bears upon the Indian Civil Service, and to say that I confirm entirely as far as my own experience goes, and it has been considerable, what was said by the noble Viscount, as to the result of the present system in that Service. At the time I had the honour of holding the office of Secretary of State for India, I made repeated enquiries to ascertain whether the complaints sometimes made in the public prints with regard to the results of competitive examinations were well-founded or not, and I and my colleagues convinced ourselves from the reports we received from the various departments, that there was no reason to be dissatisfied with the results of the system of appointing Indian Civil servants by competitive examination. There were of course some failures, as there must always be under any system. Failures had occurred in the case of Civil servants who had shown want of judgment and even common sense, but under no system could that be avoided. You may test a man's intellectual capacity, but you cannot by any means you can devise test his judgment or common sense; his Examiners cannot be certain that he possesses either, and that is therefore an inherent difficulty in any system you may introduce. But I am quite sure there is no reason to be dissatisfied with the results of the system as regards India, and I am glad the noble Viscount quoted from the report upon that service, which gives a perfectly favourable opinion upon those results. I will also add that for many years there have been discussions upon the question, not whether there ought to be competitive examinations, but as to age and other qualifications. Different views have been taken on the subject, and it has been thought that the system might be improved upon. My own opinion is that the changes proposed, particularly with regard to age, were shown to be on the whole not desirable, and I am extremely glad to find that the Secretary of State for India has found it better to go back to the old system. I think it was better to give a trial to the new conditions; but as they were found not to work as well as the old conditions, I am very glad the noble Viscount has found himself able to put those conditions again in force.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS)

My Lords, I am glad to hear the expression of opinion which the noble Earl has just given. I can assure him the matter received very careful consideration before any alteration was made. I thought it only right that a fair and full trial should be given to the younger limit of age fixed upon some time ago when my noble Friend was Secretary of State; but the evidence which was produced before the Commission which sat in India, and the Report of the Commissioners themselves, coupled with the strong recommendation I had from the Viceroy, convinced me— having gone thoroughly into the subject upon the Reports which I received from every quarter—that it was wise to increase the limit of age for examination from 19 to 23. I am in hopes that we shall be able to secure the advantage which the Universities have given with regard to the training of young men after they have obtained their degree. Nothing could be better than the behaviour of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge in the matter, and I think the thanks of the country are due to them for the good they have done to the Indian Civil Service. I take this opportunity of publicly thanking them for the manner in which they have received the change of age, and no doubt still hope to render advantages to the Service. I think now that the limit of age has been altered, it is right for me to say that we never got the actual cream of the public school boys because they were taken away to go to the crammers. I hope we shall be able to get them now before they fix definitely their aim in life, and that either before they obtain their degree or afterwards they will find such an opening in the Indian Civil Service as will induce them to come forward for the purpose of filling the appointments, because to my mind there is no higher profession that a man can take up than that of the Indian Civil Service.

THE EARL OF MORLEY

My Lords, I should like to say with regard to what has fallen from my noble and gallant Friend with reference to the Army, that I had myself for some years the honour of being connected with the Army; and though of course I have not the direct knowledge which he as an officer can claim, still I had very ample opportunities of knowing what officers were some years ago. I think it will be admitted by everyone that officers of the present day are in knowledge and ability very superior to what they were 20 years ago. I do not attribute that entirely to the system of examination, but I think the system of examination has done much to improve the education of officers. When the noble Lord says that the examinations depend on memory and on memory alone, I entirely differ from him. The preliminary examination to which he refers is a very easy one, and one which an intelligent lad ought to pass without much difficulty. Then when you talk of physique, I venture to think that the officers of the present time are not inferior in physique to the officers of the British Army during any period of its existence. The noble Lord spoke of the necessity of obtaining men possessing powers of initiation, but how in the world are you to discover whether there exists the initiative power (the importance of which I entirely admit) in a lad of 18 or 19, whatever test you apply? It is impossible to test those powers except by experience. I am not in the least a fanatic for examinations, and I do not see why the system of examinations cannot be improved. I do not deny, as the noble Lord on the Cross Benches said, that your system might exclude some excellent men and some fools, but I would ask under what system can you avoid this? The great point is to admit as few useless men as possible and to get as high an average as you can. I believe that under the present system of examination you exclude those who are absolutely ignorant, and you do not run the risk of excluding more men than under any system which has yet been devised. One's sympathies are often excited at seeing a fine young fellow who has failed to get in under the Army, but we must remember that many fine young men who are now officers in the Army would have failed to get in under the old system, and have had the door opened to them under this system of examinations. I do feel very strongly that before we are called upon to abolish or revise this system, which has not been unsuccessful up to the present time, we should ascertain what system is likely to be successful.

EARL FORTESCUE

My Lords, I had not intended to trouble you for a moment on this subject, because I understood that the Debate was to have turned entirely on the value of examinations before official appointments are made. My noble Friend the Chairman of Committees has avoided that subject altogether and has dwelt exclusively on the Army Examinations. It may be in the recollection of some of your Lordships that I have ventured to contend that the tests for the Army are incomplete—not that intellectual and educational tests ought not to be applied to the Army or that their application has not been of great value, but the physical strength and proficiency in martial and athletic exercises, though not ignored for what has been called the scientific branches of the Army, the Engineers and the Artillery, are entirely ignored in the rest. Nothing but a pass examination takes place by a medical man with regard to the appointment of officers for the Cavalry and Infantry. An officer of Engineers may, as has occurred in some instances, for years together never have occasion to cross, a horse; a cavalry officer, ex hypothesi, is obliged to do so; and yet, in the Woolwich Examination, proficiency and excellence in riding counts for a certain number of marks, but is utterly ignored in examinations for the Cavalry or for the Infantry. Surely, while good health is desirable in fulfilling all duties in life, and in occupying any official position, yet good bodily strength is of most essential value in the case of officers in the Army. I remember an ex-Cabinet Minister once saying to me that an examination which attached any value to riding would give an unfair advantage to men who had had the opportunity over the sons of poor parents. I said:— I did not know before that you wished to have a handicap competition for the honour of serving Her Majesty in the Army, that the object was not to get the best possible candidate but to get the best possible race. My view, on the other hand, is that if Her Majesty can get an officer who is qualified to ride, so much the better. The better article Her Majesty can obtain at a given price and on given terms, it seems to me the greater the advantage for the country. I must not detain your Lordships longer upon a question which has collaterally arisen in the course of this debate. I can only say with regard to the question which has been raised by my noble Friend, that I have a very lively recollection of the pressure that came from constituents nearly half a century ago in these matters; and one of the Whips long ago confided to me that as a rule Members for small constituencies got a greater number of appointments for their constituents than Members for large constituencies; and for this reason, that it made comparatively little difference in an election in a large constituency to the chances of a candidate's election whether he obtained a particular nomination for some particular friend and supporter or not, whereas in a small constituency it might make the whole difference. A man with two or three brothers and cousins in a small constituency in the old days might decide the election one way or the other, and therefore not only had you a preponderance of nominations in favour of the relatives of the least independent and least high-minded, as a rule, of the constituents, but you had a preponderance of this kind of nomination from the most corrupt and smallest constituencies of the country. Whatever faults may be found with the present system, looking back in my own remembrance—and I had some facilities at one time in my life for seeing how patronage was bestowed—I cannot doubt that the testing of candidates by examination is in its results greatly superior to the old system of nomination. As a noble Lord has very truly observed, the nomination of an incompetent young man is not likely to effect prejudicially at once the efficiency of a public office, but as years pass by, after the patron has gone into Opposition, or has been placed in some other office, or has died, by the process of seniority the inefficient young man rises to a position of some importance and weight in his office, and the office suffers accordingly, but no one remembers after the lapse of so many years who was the Minister originally responsible for the appointment. So that in using his personal influence a Minister used not to be immediately concerned with regard to the fitness or eligibility of the candidate. Nothing is perfect in this world, and I have no doubt that the system of appointment of candidates may be susceptible of further improvement. I am quite satisfied that it is susceptible of a great deal of improvement in the case of candidates for the Army, but I cannot as regards the Civil appointments altogether support the views of my noble Friend.

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

My Lords, I have only one word to say, and it is hardly in reply, but rather in explanation. The noble Lord who spoke from the Back Benches asked whether I would enlarge the scope of the motion so as to take in examinations as regards the Army. I shall be perfectly ready to do that if it will make the Motion more acceptable to the noble Lord the President of the Council. Would it??

VISCOUNT CRANBROOK

No.

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

My object is to get this Motion carried, which I believe would greatly benefit the prospects of education in this country, but I suppose, from the reply of the noble Viscount, that that enlargement of the Motion would not make it more acceptable to him. I am bound to say it was with some astonishment that I heard the speech of my noble Friend. That speech was quite the speech of a person in an official position, for he based his answers on the opinions of those under him in the Office?

VISCOUNT CRANBROOK

I beg the noble Lord's pardon; the Civil Service Commissioners have nothing whatever to do with me; they are not under me— they are under the Treasury.

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

I thought there was a connection between the Civil Service Commissioners and the Education Department, but apparently there is none. What the public desire to know is whether these official Reports are as absolutely trustworthy as they might be supposed to be as regards the carrying on the affairs of the country. My noble Friend has absolutely ignored the mass of evidence which he knew, or ought to have known, is being got together in the shape of letters from all sorts and conditions of men, peers, heads of colleges, and some of the men best known to science in this country, who all say that the time has come for an inquiry into the matter. I say I am surprised, because I am inclined to believe that if the head of Her Majesty's Government had not been a victim to the prevailing epidemic and had been in the House tonight, we should not have had the speech we have heard from the Treasury Bench. I had hoped the Prime Minister would have been here, and I had reason to believe from what I have been told by those whom I represent in your Lordships' House to-night that he would have acceded to the appointment of this Committee. So that I may say that I am among those who have suffered from the prevailing epidemic. The Chairman of Committees argued as if there was no alternative between the present system and a return to the old system of jobbery and unfairness; but it is in the belief than there is an alternative, and in the hope of putting it forward, that we are moving in this matter. Certainly my object was to show that those who are in favour of this inquiry want a Royal Commission in order to see whether the complaints against the present system are well founded or not, and to see whether you cannot find some middle course which shall be less disadvantageous to the country. That is my answer to the Chairman of Committees. The noble Lord has referred to what has been? done in Holland. The whole of the Civil Service is provided for in this way —not by examination, but by the nomination of heads of Department, and then the candidates have to pass an examination. I can only express my disappointment that Her Majesty's Government have thought it right, through my noble Friend the Lord President of the Council, to decline to grant this Commission, but I hope they will see fit to alter their decision.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

Does the noble Lord persist in his Motion?

THE EARL OF WEMYSS

NO; I shall not press my Motion,

Motion (by leave of the Housed) withdrawn.