Lords Sitting of 11 February 1890

Preamble
THE PARLIAMENT, which had been Prorogued successively from Friday, the 30th day of August, 1889, to Saturday, the 16th day of November, 1889,thence to the 11th February, 1890,met this day for the despatch of Public Business.
The Session was opened by Commission.
THE HOUSE OF PEERS being met,
THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House,
"That Her Majesty, not thinking it fit to be personally present here this day, has been pleased to cause a Commission to be issued under the Great Seal, in order to the opening and holding of this Parliament."
Then Five of the LORDS COMMISSIONERS—namely, the LORD CHAN-
2
CELLOR, the EARL OF MOUNT-EDGCUMBE, the EARL OF LIMERICK, VISCOUNT CROSS, and LORD KNUTSFORD—-being in their robes, and seated on a form placed between the Throne and the Woolsack, commanded the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod to let the COMMONS know "The Lords Commissioners desire their immediate attendance in this House to hear the Commission read."
Who being at the Bar, with their Speaker:—The Commission was read by the Clerk:—Then

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.
THE LORD CHANCELLORdelivered HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH to both Houses of Parliament as follows:—
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"My relations with other Powers continue to be of a friendly character.
"An armed force under a Portuguese officer was dispatched during the autumn from the Colony of Mozambique Into ter-

3
ritory where British settlements had been formed, and where there are native tribes who have been taken under my protection. A collision, attended with bloodshed, took place, and acts were committed inconsistent with the respect due to the flag? of this country. The Portuguese Government have now, at my request, promised to withdraw their military forces from the territory in question.
"A Conference of the Powers interested in the suppression of the Slave Trade has been convoked at Brussels by the King of the Belgians. I earnestly hope that the results of its deliberations will advance the great cause for which it is assembled.
"A Commercial Convention has been concluded with the Khedive of Egypt, and a Provisional Arrangement for the adjustment of pressing fiscal questions has been made with the Government of Bulgaria.
"Papers on all these questions will be presented to you.
"The Convention concluded by me with the Emperor of Germany and the Republic of the United States with, respect to the Government of Samoa will be laid before you, together with the Protocols of the Conference; as also a Treaty which has been concluded with the United States for amending the Law of Extradition between the two countries. The latter instrument still awaits the ratification of the Senate.
"The disordered condition of Swaziland having rendered it necessary to make provision for the better government of that territory, the independence of which was recognised by the Convention of London, I have, acting in conjunction with the President of the South African Republic, sent a Commissioner to learn the views of the Swazis and of the white settlers.
"I shall await with lively interest the result of the Conference now being held to discuss the important question of the
4
federation of the Australian Colonies. Any well-considered measure which, by bringing these great Colonies into closer union, will increase their welfare and strength, will receive my favourable consideration.
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"The estimates of the year for defraying the cost of the Government of the country will be laid before you. They have been drawn with a due regard to economy and to the necessities of the public service.
My Lords and Gentlemen,
"The continued improvement in the state of Ireland, and the further diminution in the amount of agrarian crime, have made it possible very largely to restrict the area in which it is necessary to deal with certain offences by summary process. Proposals for increasing under due financial precaution the number of occupying owners; for extending to Ireland the principles of local self-government which have already been adopted in England and Scotland, so far as they are applicable to that country; and for improving the material well-being of the population in the poorer districts, will be submitted to you.
"A Bill for facilitating and cheapening the transfer of land in England will be again presented to you.
"Provisions will be submitted to you for diminishing the difficulty and cost which at present attend the passage of private legislation required for Scotland.
"A Bill for improving the procedure by which tithe is now levied, and for facilitating its redemption, will be laid before you.
"I have appointed a Commission to report upon the best means of improving the economic conditions which affect the inhabitants of some parts of the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland.
"Your attention will be invited again to a Bill for ascertaining the liability of

5
employers in case of accidents, and to a measure for improving the procedure in winding up insolvent Companies under the Limited Liability Acts.
"There will be laid before you Bills for the consolidation and amendment of the Laws with respect to public health in the Metropolis, and to the dwellings of the working classes; and also a Bill for the better regulation of savings banks and friendly societies.
"Your attention will be directed to the state of the accommodation now provided in camps and barracks, and you will be asked to make better provision for the distribution as well as for the health and comfort of my troops.
"I commend you earnestly in the discharge of your high responsibility to the care and guidance of Almighty God."
Then the Commons withdrew.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.
PRAYERS.

ROLL OF THE LORDS.
Garter King of Arms attending, delivered at the Table (in the usual manner) a List of the Lords Temporal in the Fourth Session of the Twenty-fourth Parliament of the United Kingdom: The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR SCOTLAND.
The Clerk of the Crown in Chancery delivered a certificate that the Viscount Strathallan and the Lord Saltoun had been elected Representative Peers for Scotland in the room of the Earl of Leven and Melville and the Earl of Orkney: Certificate read.

SAT FIRST.
The Lord Addington, after the death of his father; the Lord Seaton, after the death of his father; the Lord Teynham, after the death of his father.
Several Lords took the Oath.

SELECT VESTRIES.
Bill, pro formâ, read 1a.
THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.

  ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
  The QUEEN'S SPEECH reported by the LORD CHANCELLOR.
  LORD DE RAMSEY(who wore the uniform of the Huntingdonshire Light Horse): My Lords, I rise to move an humble Address thanking Her Majesty for Her Gracious Speech. I ask your Lordships to extend your consideration and forbearance, and I know I shall not ask in vain, to one who addresses you for the first time, and especially on an occasion like this. I shall endeavour concisely and clearly, if possible, to present my own views to your Lordships freely, and I will endeavour at the same time to avoid encroaching too far on what may be called hotly-disputed ground. Your Lordships have been told that the relations of this country with Foreign Powers continue to be of a friendly character. The two Conferences, three Conventions, and two Commissions mentioned in Her Majesty's Gracious Speech I think are proof of the peaceful means which are being employed by the Government in their endeavours to arrange and to settle the difficulties and troubles of this great Empire. With all Europe bristling witharms—withmyriads of armed men all over the Continent, our Unionist Government which has now been going on for nearly four years has certainly held an even course, and has kept the Union Jack in the van of civilisation, of humanity, and of peace. A cloud has, however, arisen; difficulties have occurred with our old friend, our old ally—the country of Portugal. In, that country a new Government has replaced the old one. A new Minister either has arrived or is on the point of arriving on these shores, and I think we have every reason to hope and to believe that the difficulty which has arisen will be shortly settled, and settled to the mutual satisfaction of the two countries. We have, I hope, every reason to believe that the Portuguese Government will admit the justice of the claim that has been put before them; and I am sure your Lordships will allow that at any rate in a matter like this which has arisen between a great Power and a small one, immense tact has been shown on the part of our Foreign Minister in

  7
  dealing with this difficulty. I think, my Lords, we need take but little notice of the ebullitions of feeling that have taken place in Oporto, Lisbon, and other, parts of Portugal. It would ill become us as a country to pay too much attention to the spiteful remarks which have been uttered. Portugal must remember what we have done for her in the past, and Portugal must know that we should not for an instant think of doing anything that would do her harm. Portugal must also know that there is a line to be drawn, and that we, knowing the justice of our cause, insist upon the withdrawal of her troops from the disputed territory. A double error has been committed; territory in which British settlements had been formed, was invaded, and native tribes that were under our protection were attacked. We read of Greater Britain, we hear and see efforts, most laudable efforts, being made for bringing to a head the scheme of Imperial Federation. I hope that we shall see and hear more of these efforts. But, my Lords, what would be the use of any efforts in that direction if, when an occasion like this Portuguese difficulty arises, we were not to show a bold front to the world and to declare at once that the territory is ours, and that we mean to hold on to it until we are driven out of the field? I think, my Lords, that it is hardly necessary for me to pursue that subject much further, but with our enormous population—an ever increasing population—a population emigrating and spreading itself all over the globe, it is an absolutely imperative necessity that they should know that where they are legally employed, either in colonisation or in trade, if they get into difficulties from no fault of their own, the strong arm of the Mother Country is ready to support them. Equally imperative is it that the native races with which we have had so much to do in the formation of this huge Empire should know that when they have enlisted themselves under our protection they shall not be molested, and certainly not massacred. I cannot pass this subject by altogether without once again expressing my individual admiration at the way in which this intricate subject has been treated by our Government. Then, my Lords, a Conference of Powers for
  8
  the suppression of the Slave Trade, which has been convoked by the King of the Belgians, will be held at Brussels. It is, I think, almost useless for this country to hope for a satisfactory and complete scheme for suppressing the slave traffic unless we can induce our great neighbour, the French Republic, to allow us that right of search of vessels, which we ourselves allow, but which she denies to us. It is impossible when vessels are sailing under French colours, and we cannot search them, to stop the traffic in slaves; and I most earnestly hope that at this Conference France may see tit to give way on this point; and if that be so, we may find some better means of arriving at what we all desire. There is no country in the world that comes near us, certainly not in colonisation, and certainly not in dealing with native races—there is nobody that can touch us, I believe, in our zeal to free slaves, and I hope that as we have before now left others in the background in colonisation and in the knowledge of treating natives properly, no other nation, will be able to approach us in our zeal' to suppress this odious slave traffic. In Egypt I hope again that France may see fit to give way on a matter which would largely assist in placing financial' affairs of Egypt in better order. It is greatly to be desired that the finances of that country which have caused us such an amount of trouble should be rapidly put on a firm and proper basis. The affairs of that country, I think, my Lords, I may congratulate this country by saying are improving very rapidly; and very lately we have had the opinion expressed by a distinguished and recently returned traveller that the trade of the Soudan may be opened up, and if that be so it opens, indeed, a happy vista for the prosperity of Egypt; and I am convinced of this, that if trade is to be opened in the Soudan English traders will not be behind. My Lords, what I may almost call the triangular difficulty in Samoa is mentioned again in this year's Gracious Speech, as it was in last year's; and I do hope that in the course of the present Session that difficulty will be overcome to the mutual satisfaction of the three Powers concerned. I do not propose to trespass upon your Lordships' time on the all-important question of Ireland and Irish administration. The noble Earl who will second this.

  9
  Address, from family tics in connection with land in that country, is far better able to express his opinion upon Irish matters, and to give, I daresay, a more detailed account of what is going on in that country than I can, and I leave it with confidence in his hands. But I cannot pass away from it without complimenting the noble and learned Lord who sits below me upon the extraordinary success that has attended the working of the Act called the Ash bourne Act. My Lords, that most difficult subject of Land Transfer will come before Parliament this Session. Parliament has already done something to facilitate the sale of land, but I am bound to say that it has dismally failed in cheapening it. If some measure could be introduced and carried which would effect the object that I know many have at heart, namely, making easy the sale and purchase of small pieces of land, it would be of the very highest advantage to those in rural districts; and I cannot help thinking that solicitors would find that if they would agree to a reduction of the scale of fees which are so high on the sale and purchase of small properties, they would by the increased business that would be brought to them amply recoup themselves for the reduction of that scale of fees. My Lords, I now come to what I think is one of the most pressing, one of the most important subjects that affects us in this country at the present time—a matter which I make bold to press upon Her Majesty's Government. It is a matter of the vastest importance both for the peace and goodwill of all men—and that is the settlement of the Tithes Question. I hope, and I feel convinced it is the intention of the Government to press this matter forward. For my own part, I shall be glad to see a strong Bill brought in somewhat on the basis of the Tithe Commutation Act of 1836. Most certainly tithe and agricultural prices have gone down together with a run. The clergy in many parts are dreadfully distressed. The Welsh clergy have been greatly reviled and abused with no reason whatever, because they have endeavoured to gain what is lawfully and legally their own. The poor clergy, not only in Wales but elsewhere, have in many cases suffered the pangs of hunger because in some places of the dishonesty of the tenant, and in Some places of his inability to pay the
  10
  tithe. That has been the root of the difficulty in connection with the tithes. My Lords, any measure that will reduce the friction which is now existing in regard to the collection of tithe, and any measure that will give us a fair redemption of tithe would be most satisfactory to all concerned. Parliament has already passed a Bill for the sale of glebe lands. I wish I could see that Act more used and more brought into force, for it is a dreadful state of things to see a clergyman with no capital and with sometimes from 150 to 200 acres of heavy land, and a large family; and that heavy land, his glebe, being his only means of subsistence. Prompt attention to this matter I have no doubt we shall get. I believe that every right-minded man in this country would like to see that question settled, and I believe that those who do not are only those who would like to see the settlement of it delayed and deferred either from a wish to use it for the purpose of political agitation, or to the harm and destruction of the Established Church of England. I have had the honour for many years of wearing Her Majesty's uniform, and as a soldier I must express my pleasure at seeing that at the close of the Speech Her Majesty's Government announce their intention of at once setting about housing our troops and providing them with proper and fitting accommodation. Public opinion on this matter has risen to a point now when it would not be well to delay that matter, and I am sure this country will grant ungrudgingly whatever sums in reason Her Majesty's Government may require, so that no longer will our gallant soldiers be seen lodged in what I may call nothing but nurseries of typhoid. Our soldiers rarely, I may almost say never, grumble, but your. Lordships will agree that it is not only wrong but it is false economy not to house them properly and treat them well. My Lords, in conclusion, you will allow me to congratulate the Unionist Party on the prospects that are now before us. I think that the general aspect of affairs is decidedly re-assuring. There is a very decided revival of Trade: I wish I could say the same of Agriculture. I hope the revival of trade will not be delayed and retarded, aye, and perhaps trade half ruined in the Port of London, by any increased struggles between labour and

  11
  capital. I do trust that the labouring classes will realise the fact that as long as their demands are just and are put forward in a proper way they have every reasonable chance of being attended to. When their demands are just and reasonable the labouring classes carry public opinion and public sympathy with them; but once they go outside that, it reverses the case, and they achieve a result which is an absolutely fatal one to them, that is, they compel capital to coalesce with capital, and there is thus a war between Capital and Labour. My Lords, I do, if any words of mine should be read by the labouring classes of this country, urge upon them most strenuously to think awhile and be very careful before they place their trust in men, many of whom I am sorry to say take a prominent position solely for the sake of aggrandisement. If the labouring classes would only think that by entrusting their fortunes to adventurers they were, instead of bettering their lot, only leading their wives and children to the verge of starvation, they would pause and ponder before throwing over regular employment and regular wages all the year round for the very doubtful blessing of a strike. But, my Lords, on the other side, I think we have a right to insist on freedom of contract as the main basis on which we must act, and then these matters will cure themselves. Every difficulty of this sort must be grappled with in strictly legal fashion, and we must have no illegal picketing, no illegal boycotting, but we must have the strong arm of the law to shelter capital as well as labour. I beg to thank your Lordships most cordially for your attention, and for the very great kindness you have shown to me. I trust I have not wearied you, and my first speech in this House I shall ever remember with the greatest pleasure. I beg to move the Address.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as followeth: —
  Most Gracious Sovereign,
  We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal Subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Majesty for the Gracious Speech which your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament:
  We humbly thank Your Majesty for the information that Your Majesty's relations with
  12
  other powers continue to be of a friendly character:
  We thank Your Majesty for informing us that an armed force under a Portuguese Officer was dispatched during the autumn from the Colony of Mozambique into territory where British Settlements had been formed, and where there are Native tribes who have been taken under Your Majesty's protection; and that a collision, attended with bloodshed, took place; that acts were committed inconsistent with the respect due to the flag of this Country; and that the Portuguese Government have now, at Your Majesty's request, promised to withdraw their military forces from the territory in question:
  We humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that a Conference of the Powers interested in the suppression of the Slave Trade has been convoked at Brussels by the King of the Belgians, and that Your Majesty earnestly hopes that the results of its deliberations will advance the great cause for which it as assembled:
  We thank your Majesty for the information, that a Commercial Convention has been concluded with the Khedive of Egypt, and that a Provisional Arrangement for the adjustment of pressing fiscal questions has been made with the Government of Bulgaria; that Papers on all these questions will be presented to us:
  We learn with satisfaction that the Convention concluded by Your Majesty with the Emperor of Germany and the Republic of the United States with respect to the Government of Samoa will be laid before us, together with the Protocols of the Conference; as also a Treaty which has been concluded by Your Majesty with the United States for amending the Law of Extradition between the two Countries, the latter instrument still awaiting the ratification of the Senate:
  We thank Your Majesty for informing us that the disordered condition of Swaziland having rendered it necessary to make provision for the better government of that territory, the independence of which was recognised by the Convention of London, Your Majesty has, acting in conjunction with the President of the South African Republic, sent a Commissioner to learn the views of the Swazis and of the white settlers:
  We thank Your Majesty for the information that your Majesty awaits with lively interest the result of the Conference now being held to discuss the important question of the federation of the Australian Colonies, and that any well considered measure which, by bringing.

  13
  these great Colonies into closer union, will increase their welfare and strength, will receive Your Majesty's favourable consideration:
  We learn with satisfaction that the continued improvement in the state of Ireland, and the further diminution in the amount of agrarian crime, have made it possible very largely to restrict the area in which it is necessary to deal with certain offences by summary process; that proposals for increasing under due financial precaution the number of occupying owners; for extending to Ireland the principles of local self-government which have already been adopted in England and Scotland, so far as they are applicable to that Country; and for improving the material well-being of the population in the poorer districts, will be submitted to us:
  We thank Your Majesty for informing us that a Bill for facilitating and cheapening the transfer of land in England will be again presented to us; and that provisions will be submitted to us for diminishing the difficulty and cost which at present attend the passage of Private Legislation required for Scotland:
  We thank Your Majesty for the information that a Bill for improving the procedure by which Tithe is now levied, and for facilitating its redemption, will be laid before us:
  We learn with satisfaction that Your Majesty has appointed a Commission to report upon the best means of improving the economic conditions which affect the inhabitants of some parts of the Western Highlands and Islands of Scotland:
  We thank Your Majesty for informing us that our attention will be invited again to a Bill for ascertaining the Liability of Employers in case of Accidents, and to a measure for improving the procedure in winding up insolvent Companies under the Limited Liability Acts:
  We thank Your Majesty for the information that there will be laid before us Bills for the consolidation and amendment of the Laws with respect to public health in the Metropolis, and to the Dwellings of the Working Classes; and also a Bill for the better regulation of Savings Banks and Friendly Societies:
  We thank Your Majesty for informing us that our attention will be directed to the state of the accommodation now provided in Camps and Barracks, and that we shall be asked to make better provision for the distribution as well as for the health and comfort of Your Majesty's Troops:
  14
  We humbly assure Your Majesty that our careful consideration shall be given to the subjects which Your Majesty has recommended to our attention, and to the measures which may be submitted to us; and we earnestly trust that in regard to these and all other matters pertaining to our function the keeping and guidance of Almighty Cod may be vouchsafed to us."— (The Lord De Ramsey.)
  THE EARL OF STRADBROKE(who wore the uniform of the First Norfolk Volunteer Artillery): My Lords, in rising to second the Motion that has been so ably moved by the noble Lord near me, I would crave from your Lordships that kind indulgence which is usually accorded to anyone addressing this august Assembly for the first time. The opening paragraph of the Queen's Speech, referring to the peaceful relations existing between this country and other nations, will, I feel sure, be received by your Lordships and by the whole nation with the greatest satisfaction. Difficulties have arisen, and consequent friction has occurred during the past few months between this country and Portugal, but owing to the firm and at the same time just action of Her Majesty's Government those difficulties have been removed. It might have been thought that the Government were acting in a somewhat peremptory manner, but we now know that strong measures were necessary from the fact that on the day previous to that on which Mr. Petre received the message from the Portuguese Foreign Minister, stating that Portugal would acquiesce in the demands of England, the Governor General of Mozambique published a notice in the Official Gazette that Portugal had conquered the region of the Shire River, and intended to administer that, district. I hope it will not be considered presumptuous on my part if I add one word of congratulation to the noble Marquess for the way in which he has conducted these negotiations. I feel sure that your Lordships will agree with me that the thanks of the whole country are due to, and are most cordially accorded to, the noble Marquess for the way in which all matters connected with the Foreign Office have been managed since he has been at its head. I very much hope that as an outcome of the Anti-Slavery Conference at Brussels, France will waive the objection she has hitherto maintained to the right of mutual search of sus-

  15
  pected vessels, and I am sure that this country generally will welcome any assistance from any Foreign Power in the matter of suppressing the Slave Trade. It is a matter of congratulation that the difficulties with regard to Samoa, which have been so long a bone of contention, are approaching a satisfactory termination. And I think Her Majesty's Government are taking a most wise and at the same time just course in sending a Commissioner into Swaziland to inquire into the real wants and requirements of the natives and white settlers there before finally settling as to the government of that territory. My Lords, turning from foreign countries, we find that success has also attended the policy of Her Majesty's Government here at home. I refer especially to the great improvement in Ireland. I am glad to see in one of the paragraphs in the Speech that, owing to the great diminution in crime, it is considered possible to reduce the area in which it is necessary to deal with certain crimes by summary process. We all wish, I am sure, that the Act for the prevention of crime in Ireland could be repealed altogether, but we must bear in mind that that Act becomes a dead letter if no crimes are committed of the kind to restrain which that Act was passed. It was with very great regret that I read in to-day's papers that a fresh outrage has been committed in County Clare, but I hope we shall not hear of many more such outrages. I think we must all admit that the improvement in Ireland is due to the firm, and, at the same time, just action of the Executive in Ireland, and especially is credit due to the Chief Secretary for Ireland for the great ability which he has displayed in carrying out his difficult and delicate, I might almost say dangerous, task. But another great cause of the improvement in Ireland is to be found in the fact of the enormous success which has attended the working of Lord Ash bourne's Act. As your Lordships know, during the last four years £10,000,000 have been granted by way of loans to enable occupiers of land to become possessed of their farms; the applications for loans under this Act have been most numerous, and they may, in fact, be counted by thousands. Up to the end of November last loans under this Act had been approved of to the amount of over £8,000,000, of which
  16
  over £6,000,000 were provisionally granted, and over £4,700,000 were actually issued. And what is more satisfactory is that the arrears on the £225,000 which were due up to the end of last October amount to less than £3,000. It would appear that the Act is working most successfully from a financial point of view; but what is really of more importance is, that wherever the provisions of the Act have been in force there a spirit of content and peace is to be found. I hope that when the proposal, which is referred to in the Gracious Speech to-day for increasing the number of occupiers of land, comes up for discussion, your Lordships will not forget the advantageous results which have attended the working of this Act. Reference has also been made to a Bill which will be introduced for the redemption of tithe. This Bill will be most anxiously looked for by all who have an interest in agriculture, and I believe that if a Bill can be introduced which will facilitate and make feasible the redemption of tithe it will be welcomed most heartily not only by the payers, but by the receivers, of tithe. I am very glad to find that a Bill for the Regulation of Friendly Societies is also to be introduced, because I know that very great distress has often been occasioned in rural districts owing to the failure of such societies. The failure of such societies tends to discourage that spirit of thrift which we should all be anxious to encourage. I entirely agree with what the noble Lord who moved the Address has said with regard to the importance of improving the accommodation for our soldiers. I trust the policy which has been so clearly sketched in the Queen s Speech to-day will meet with only such opposition as will lead to a fair and just criticism of the various Bills as they are introduced, and I am sure that the Government may rely on the same loyal support which has been tendered to them by the Liberal Unionists in the past, at great personal self-sacrifice on their part. Before resuming my seat I would venture to offer to the Government my congratulations on the aspect of the trade and commerce of the country. During the time the present Government have been in office the expenditure has been very largely reduced; owing to their firm administration credit and confidence have been

  17
  so far restored that the Trade Returns have shown an increase from£618,000,000, when they came into office, to £742,000,000. I only wish that a corresponding improvement could be seen in the state of agriculture. The improved state of trade has, however, been rather shaken by the formidable proportions which strikes have assumed. I trust if any differences occur in the future between capital and labour, that those difficulties will be settled amicably, and that each side will display a spirit of conciliation. My Lords, I thank you for the kind indulgence you have shown me this afternoon, and I beg leave to second the Motion that an humble Address be sent to Her Majesty in response to the Gracious Message from the Throne.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I have long entertained the opinion that to move or second the Address on such occasions as this was one of the most difficult things a man could have to do in Parliament; yet for some years past I have constantly had to offer compliments to the Mover and Seconder of the Address, as I most cordially do to-day, and I begin to think that my conviction, founded on long personal experience and observation, must to a certain extent be erroneous. One piece of wisdom I must specially give the noble Mover and the noble Seconder credit for. They did not attempt to give any explanation of why Parliament meets so unusually late—I say unusually late, when there has been no Autumn Session. The noble Marquess seems to differ, but I think he will find that is the case; and J should have thought that if Her Majesty's Government intended to pass so many Bills as are set forth in the Queen's Speech, they would have been desirous not to have lost one or two early weeks of the year. I desire, however, to give expression to a feeling in regard to which I represent, not merely the small number of noble Lords who now sit behind me, but the great majority of this House, by saying what pleasure it is to us to see the leader of the House, and certainly one of the most eminent Members of it, here present, and I trust in a state of complete convalescence. Reference has often been made to the pleasure of anticipating posthumous praise, and learning while yet alive what will be said of one when dead. It has been said that some statesmen
  18
  have caused their death to be reported in order to enjoy the non-posthumous knowledge of hearing what people think about them. A few weeks' cold has given this pleasure to Lord Salisbury without any action on his part. He has heard himself discussed in every way in consequence of it, and not only that but it has also raised questions of great importance, which have been carried very far. I remember when the present Government was formed I was presumptuous enough to complain of the office of Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary being held by the same individual. I suggested that it took away a useful check in the conduct of foreign affairs, and I pointed out how intolerably hard it was on any individual who undertook it, and that it naturally Jed to a very unsatisfactory system of Government being conducted very much by departments. It is certainly an exercise of authority by one whose great labours prevent him from continuously following out every detail. That remark has been accentuated in the course of time. I would follow up that remark with another, and that is that Cabinets seem to exist for a very short time, and that fact I never heard even alluded to except by one Member of the actual Cabinet. But now you have everybody talking and writing on this particular subject. There is one thing which, I trust, it is not quite out of place to mention, though, perhaps, it is not quite the place of a Member of Mr. Gladstone's late Administration to make such a criticism—and that is, the largeness of the Cabinet. One thing I trust is that successive Governments are not going to vie with each other in order to have one or two more in each Cabinet than in the preceding. I remember when the late Lord Derby formed his first Administration, Lord Palmerston criticised him very severely on not having taken the opportunity of diminishing the number of the Cabinet. I remember Lord Derby himself on the platform at Waterloo Station, just after he had given in his resignation, when I asked him how many there were to be in the next Cabinet, said:—" I have made out a list of 36 who have absolute claims to it." The last time I had the honour of a political conversation with Lord Beacons-field, he said:—"Mind and follow my advice. If you have anything to do

  19
  with forming Cabinets in the future, make them as small as possible." My Lords, while I rejoice at the recovery of the health of the noble Marquess, it is impossible not to be reminded that this House has, during the last Recess, lost an unusual number of its Members— has lost a, large number of Peers, respected and esteemed by this House, but who did not take any prominent part in our public proceedings. We have lost, besides others, Lord Napier of Magdala, who was respected and admired both as a soldier and a man. We have lost Lord Fitzgerald, who was not only an eminent Irish. Judge, but one who, so far as I remember, since his accession to the House, gave almost more attention than any other Member, both to its political and judicial business. We have lost the Bishop of Durham, a great scholar and a great theologian. We have lost also Lord Blachford, a personal friend of mine and a personal friend of many of your Lordships, who was once the head of one of the great permanent Services, and whose presence aided so materially to strengthen this Assembly. With regard to the last two Peers, I heard the Bishop of Durham make two speeches. The first was a very poor performance indeed. But the next year I heard him speak with all the power, weight, and authority which you might expect from so great a Prelate. Lord Blachford, I think, I only heard once. He was followed by Lord Cairns, no mean judge, who declared that he had made a speech which no other Member of this Assembly was capable of making. I cannot help thinking that among those who have come later into the House there is a great deal of latent power which is not sufficiently developed. My Lords, the first subject in the Speech from the Throne, rightly and properly, concerns foreign affairs. I read the other day an acknowledgment of Sir M. Hicks Beach as to the attitude which Mr. Gladstone has maintained in Opposition with regard to foreign policy, and it is not the first time I have noticed the very great fairness of Sir Michael in matters of this sort with regard to opponents. The noble Marquess the other day volunteered, I think in a somewhat unprovoked way, at Nottingham, to make an attack on the foreign policy of Mr. Gladstone's late Administration. He named five
  20
  different subjects to animadvert upon The first was with, regard to the defeat at Majuba Hill. I do not really understand how a local check in South Africa could have been more injurious to our reputation than the check which Lord Chelmsford, under a Conservative Government, unfortunately sustained. It appears to me that to make such matters subjects of reproach against the Home Government is really absurd; but if the noble Marquess meant to repeat the complaint which was made at the time that we did not continue the war out of a feeling of prestige, when we had no practical object in view, I will very willingly submit to the censure. The noble Marquess went on to use the heroic name of Gordon. Now I feel that Cordon's mission is the subject of the greatest sorrow and regret. But I adhere to the opinion now that, after viewing the facts, it would have been almost impossible for the Government at that moment to have refused the assurances and the offer of General Gordon to go out on the instructions he himself formulated. With regard to the rescue of General Cordon having failed, I know no better answer than that which, was given by a distinguished general, a very strong Conservative, who said—" I am opposed strongly to Mr. Gladstone, but I am bound to admit that, considering the dangers and risks of an expedition to Khartoum, Her Majesty's Government was bound to consider every possible alternative before trying it." Then the noble Marquess referred to the bombardment of Alexandria. This is rather ancient history; but it is not my fault that the noble Marquess has introduced it. The only thing to be said about the bombardment of Alexandria is, that it did not take place. We did not bombard Alexandria. I do not think we even threw a shell into Alexandria. We bombarded the fortress. It may be a fair question whether it was right and necessary to do so. But I deny that the noble Marquess had any right to make the complaint he did, because he has probably not forgotten, that up to the moment of the bombardment he attacked us for sacrificing the honour and interest of the country. Then there is another question brought forward by the noble Marquess—the question of Penjdeh— which was very nearly settled. How was Penjdeh settled? It was settled by a concession on the part

  21
  of the noble Marquess entirely abandoning the point of honour, so that I think the difference in the politics of the two Governments does not appear to be very obvious. The noble Marquess then alluded to the 11 millions spent in a war scare. That allusion I do not understand.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): Does the noble Lord remember when I said all these things?
  EARL GRANVILLE: At Nottingham.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I do not remember them.
  EARL GRANVILLE: It was reported in the Times. I am very glad that it was a post-prandial speech by the noble Marquess in which these very serious charges were made against the Government which preceded him. However, I will not argue the question of the 11 millions, as the noble Marquess has so entirely forgotten. The next question is with regard to Portugal. My Lords, I think the noble Marquess will find that this rather unprovoked attack of his in the Provinces will not induce me to adopt a hostile tone in any question of this sort. The fact that the Portuguese question is a difficulty for the Government, that it has irritated a people with whom we have every reason to be on good terms, with whom we have long historical associations, the fact that we have been much criticised by all the Continental Press, makes one feel that it is the duty of the Opposition to discuss in the calmest possible way what seems to concern the great interests at stake and the principle of comity connected with it. My Lords, I am quite sure the noble Marquess will regret as much as we do that the Congo Treaty was never ratified. That treaty was negotiated for two and a half years, and I am bound to say that the chief credit of it was due to my noble Friend Lord Edmund Fitzmaurice. In that treaty there was one clause which stopped the Portuguese at the confluence of the Shire and another river, the pronunciation of which I would rather not undertake, and which left the whole, or practically the whole, of the territory now in question to ourselves and not to Portugal. That Treaty also settled nearly every outstanding difference between Portugal and ourselves. During the
  22
  whole of the negotiations and after the signature the opposition was so warm, not only on the part of influential Conservatives both in the House of Commons and at Manchester, but on the part of a sort of ex-representative of the noble Marquess, Mr. Bourke, that it ended by exciting the opposition both of France and Germany, who objected only at the last moment to the Treaty, and we were obliged to postpone the ratification, and go to the Conference at Berlin. There is another question which I should like to ask the noble Marquess. I see in the Portuguese Papers that they allude to an informal arrangement made between themselves and that excellent Consul Mr. Johnston, which would have settled this question, but which appears, and very likely for excellent reasons, not to have been acceptable to the Foreign Office. It was no fault of Portugal's that it was not carried out, and it would be very satisfactory if the noble Marquess would explain to us how that matter really stands. Nobody feels more strongly than I do how great are the interests of this country in Africa—interests which must not be interfered with. But I hold that it is most important that we should act in a manner as little likely to excite irritation as possible. I do not wish to give an opinion, but I am not sure whether the determination of the Government could not have been shown as strongly with a little less suddenness, and I also feel that in the very able and argumentative despatches of the noble Marquess stating our case it would have been better to have omitted some very brilliant sarcasms which do not really add to the strength of the reasoning, but have an irritating effect upon a small country, our former friend and ally, whose people are very proud of their traditions. As this is an important question I wish to avoid any unnecessary references to our relations with other nationalities, and to avoid arousing national susceptibilities, but I would ask whether it is true that there are going to be naval manœuvres in the Mediterranean? We possess Gibraltar. Our possession of it is a perfectly legitimate one, and we have not the slightest intention of giving it up, but there is no doubt that it is a thorn in the side of Spain that we should hold a fortified rock so very near her

  23
  territory. The policy of successive Governments has been to avoid doing anything calculated to make our proximity to Spain unnecessarily galling or prominent. I do not know whether the rumour as to these manœuvres is founded upon a myth or not; I do not know whether the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary was consulted about that; but in any case I may point out that there is no sufficient practical reason for making these particular waters the scene of such manœuvres, which certainly might cause some friction. Another subject requiring attention is the announcement that Sir Lintorn Simmons was gazetted as Envoy to the Pope. There is a legal aspect and there is a political aspect in any such appointment, and I only wish to raise the legal question. I, myself, formerly when the Pope was a Temporal Sovereign, was anxious that there should be means of regular communication between Her Majesty's Government and the Pope, and it is clear there is, in that, a convenience. That the Roman Catholic population of this country should have fitting means of communication with Rome on subjects affecting their interests is, of course, reasonable. One very convenient method of communication is through our Ambassador in Italy, but to that the Pope will not consent. We have therefore had recourse to different modes of communication, which have been indirect and inconvenient. The question I now want to raise is whether the sending of this special Envoy is legal? A good many years ago I gave a notice of Motion in the House of Commons, with the sanction of Lord Palmerston and Lord John Russell, with regard to our diplomatic relations with Rome. But just as the Motion was coming on, Lord Palmerston asked me to postpone it. He said—"The Conservative Government will not last long" (sanguine expectations are sometimes entertained in these matters), "there is no real impediment to diplomatic communication, and when we go in we will do it without making a fuss about the matter." Well, the Liberal Government did come in, the matter was considered by the Cabinet, and the Cabinet came to the conclusion that it was not possible to do this without the sanction of Parliament. A Bill was introduced into Parliament and was passed through the
  24
  House of Commons, but in this House it was made unworkable. The Act remained in operation for some years, but under Lord Beaconsfield's Administration a Statute was passed for repealing obsolete Acts, and among the obsolete Acts was the Statute to which I have just referred. Now as not only a previous Government, but a previous Cabinet, thought it necessary to have Parliamentary sanction for such an Act, as that sanction was given and was afterwards repealed by an Act of Parliament, it appears to me to be exceedingly doubtful whether the step that has, been taken, which may be a good one in itself, is either legal or constitutional. I have no doubt the noble Marquess has considered the question, and that he will be able to give a satisfactory answer on that point. Now, my Lords, there are other foreign questions which have been alluded to by both the Mover and Seconder of the Address. On the question of the Belgian Conference I am in entire sympathy with the action of the noble Marquess, but, as I have had an opportunity of publicly expressing my sympathy with that action I need not dwell upon that. There is another question upon which I have an exactly similar feeling, namely, the prospect of a North-American Federation. I heartily hope that the projects of the Government may meet with success, and that the result may be the federation of Her Majesty's North American Colonies. Now, my Lords, coming to the Bills mentioned in the Speech from the Throne, I find that, in spite of much that we have been told, Ireland still leads the way. We hear a great deal about Ireland not being allowed to interfere with legislation, but some how or other Ireland does assert herself. I can only say that, with regard to the Bills which are named, some of them will contain qualifications I should wish to see carried, and if the Bills relating to Ireland are really likely to be remedial, they must, of course, command our most attentive consideration. Amongst the other Bills mentioned some are old and some new, but as they are not of great import I will not go into them in much detail. With, the Mover and the Seconder of the Address: I rejoice over the Bill for cheapening and facilitating the transfer of land, and I gladly repeat my offer to the noble Marquess of my assistance in passing a measure of that

  25
  kind. Here I may take the opportunity of saying that my position on this side of the House has not been strengthened since last Session. The noble Marquess, I understand, has been more fortunate, and has found several useful recruits on his side of the House. Another Kill was alluded to by the Moyer and Seconder with regard to tithes. The noble Mover gave his views of the general manner in which that question would be settled. The Government were obliged to change a good deal the Bill they introduced last year, and I am afraid that however desirable it may be to settle this important question, it is one of more difficulty than would at first appear. My Lords, with regard to other Bills of a social character, Bills of a sanitary character, whether applied to civil life or military life, for the better accommodation of our soldiers, I have no doubt whatever that the Government will gain the support of the Opposition as well as that of their own supporters. Adverting to the project with regard to Scotland in the matter of private legislation, I may observe that I regret very much Lord Rosebery is unavoidably prevented from being here to-day, for I think he would have liked to be present in order to point out that the scheme, if it is to be satisfactory, must embody a representative as well as a judicial element. Another matter for complaint which, I think, Lord Rosebery would have liked to have the opportunity of making, is the sudden disappearance of the Bill promised at the beginning of last Session with reference to local government. That the defects in the legislation dealing with, that important question should not be remedied is a matter which cannot but cause dissatisfaction on both sides of the House. My Lords, there is another question upon which I think there was a positive pledge given by Her Majesty's Government last year. I observe that a Bill to amend the legislation relating to allotments is not included in the Government scheme. Then we were told at the beginning of last year that it was necessary to have Parliamentary sanction to the Sugar Convention. This year, however, nothing is said about the subject, and I should be very glad to know whether the absence of any allusion to it means what would be eminently satisfactory to myself, and I believe, to the great majority of the people of this country, namely, the abandonment
  26
  of the Sugar Bounties Convention itself. There is another subject which does not appear, and which we rather expected to appear, and that is free education. Perhaps the noble Marquess has forgotten that on a certain occasion he alluded to free education, and I have a sort of notion that lie may have been reminded of it since. On that occasion the noble Marquess, not content with performing the duties both of Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary, undertook, in addition, the functions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and went even further than any Chancellor of the Exchequer I have ever known has done, because they have never been in the habit of confiding to the public the principal point of their Budget for the ensuing year. Dealing with the Budget the noble Marquess gave assurances with respect to free education which have excited very strong feeling on the subject. The fact is, that formerly nearly all the experts on free education gave very plausible reasons, and reasons of considerable weight, against free education. But a very great change of opinion has taken place upon the subject. A strong feeling has taken hold of the popular mind. Depend upon it, after the endorsement of the principle of free education by the noble Marquess, the subject cannot be entirely dropped. My Lords, there is no mention in the Speech of the Parnell Commission, and quite properly so, because we have not yet got the Report. I do not know whether the noble Marquess will be able to tell us when it will be in our hands. Without going over the whole of this old question, I may remind the House that the objections to the Bill which created that tribunal were stated in both Houses, and by no one so strongly and so forcibly as by my noble and learned Friend Lord Herschell, to whom absolutely no answer was given. He pointed out every objection to it. He showed how extremely unfair it would be to the individual accused to depart from the usual precedent, and to refuse to appoint a Committee of Members to investigate the charges affecting his character. The argument on the side of the Government was that a Committee of the House of Commons would not be an impartial tribunal, that it was impossible to get even the best men in the House of Commons to be impartial on a subject in which

  27
  their political feelings were aroused. Mr. Parnell was told on high authority that, an anonymous newspaper writer having attacked him in a newspaper which differed from him entirely in political opinions, unless he was prepared at once to go into a Court of Justice, he must be deemed to be guilty, contrary to the absolutely recognised principle of English Law, that until a man has been proved to be guilty he must be deemed to be innocent. My Lords, I do not wish to go into detail, but I can only say it appears to me, without giving the slightest opinion upon the action of anybody in the matter, that the course of the evidence given before that tribunal more than justified the objections to this interweaving' of political action with an inquiry of this sort. With regard to Ireland, the Government point out with great satisfaction, which was echoed by the noble Mover and Seconder, that there is a continued improvement in the state of that country. Now the same sort of declaration was made last year, and was affirmed by a vote of the House of Commons. Last year I ventured to quote the words of a distinguished Member of the House of Commons—not using my own words, not using the words of any Irish or English. Home Rulers, but using the words of one of the most distinguished Members of the House of Commons, and a very strong anti-Home Ruler, Mr. Leonard Courtney, who put three or four questions on the subject. I am speaking from memory, but I think I am accurate—he asked whether it was satisfactory to the Government that something like civil war should prevail in parts of Ireland, that the Government should be constantly flouted, that trial by jury should be suspended, that peasants here and policemen there should be killed, that priests and Members of Parliament should be imprisoned by the dozen. I repeated the same questions and made an appeal to the noble Marquess to answer them, but I did not get any answer. Well, I have no doubt there is improvement in the state of Ireland of a certain sort; but when Her Majesty's Government attribute that improvement to the system of repression which they have adopted, I am not at all convinced, and there are several reasons why I do not agree with them. In the first place, it is rather a
  28
  curious fact that beyond the diminution of a certain class of crime—agrarian crime—there has been especially a diminution of boycotting offences. I am quite certain that the officials who supply those statistics do so perfectly honestly, but there is no doubt that with regard to the statistics of boycotting there is such a marked distinction between offences of that kind and other crimes. In regard to boycotting you cannot depend upon those Returns as you can upon those relating to murder and crimes of that sort. Another point is that crime in general has not diminished at all. The statistics with regard to non-indictable offences over the whole country do not support the boast of the Government. In 1878 there were 275,000 cases; in 1879 there were 263,000 cases. The Liberal Government came into office in 1880, and when Lord Salisbury came into power in 1886 he found the number reduced to 223,000 cases. But what has happened since? Under the noble Marquess's Government these figures have risen again to 236,000 in 1888, an increase of 13,000 cases of crime in two years, and this with a regrettably diminishing population. I do not think that these figures prove that contentment and good order are extending in Ireland. I am always very glad to acknowledge anything I can in fairness to opponents. The operation of the Land Act, in promoting settlements as between landlord and tenant, and the Plan of Campaign, however objectionable in other respects it may be, certainly removes from the peasants that stimulus to outrage which otherwise would exist, and after all, it is impossible to deny that the enormous masses of the English, Scotch, and Welsh people have shown a sympathy which is perfectly new towards the Irish people, and (whether reasonable or unreasonable, I will not inquire into at this moment) the very fact of that sympathy has a very great effect on a warm-hearted people like the Irish. Therefore I do not think it is logical to attribute whatever improvement there is in the condition of Ireland in regard to the decrease of crime, to the action of the Administration and their system of repression, further aided as it has been by the great increase of prices in some of the staple products of the country. While these things continue, while you have the state of things

  29
  mentioned by Mr. Leonard Courtney, while there is permanent exceptional legislation for Ireland, while you are imprisoning priests and Members of Parliament, while you have suspended trial by jury to a great extent, and while you are obliged to deprive n great city of one form of local government—while all these irritating things continue, do not flatter yourselves that you will solve the very difficult problem of the state of Ireland.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, in the first place I must express my hearty concurrence, in words of no common sincerity, in the congratulations which the noble Earl opposite has addressed to my two noble Friends the Mover and Seconder of the Address. I do earnestly hope that my noble Friend who moved the Address in a speech of so much vigour and so much clearness, and, if I may add—a circumstance not indifferent to this House—in a voice so satisfactory in this Chamber—I do hope we shall hear him often in the discussions of public business that we have. It is the defence of the existence of this formality, which the noble Lord has expressed as carrying with it more difficulty than any other oratorical exercise, that it introduces new gladiators to our arena, new collaborateurs in the work of carrying on the legislation of the country, and of enlightening as far as in our power the public opinion of this country in regard to the principles upon which we act. My Lords, I must further express my very warm thanks to the noble Earl for the extremely kind and graceful manner in which he alluded to my health. May I express a regret that he deemed it necessary to found upon that text a renewal of his ancient thesis that the present condition of the offices I hold is one which it is impossible to sustain? I venture to differ from him. After four years' experience of this arrangement, and after some experience as a spectator and actor of the other arrangement of a Foreign Minister working with Prime Minister, I am bound to record my opinion that it is an absolute delusion to think that any real efficient check upon the action of the Foreign Minister is produced by the separation of the Foreign Minister from the Prime Minister. Business like that of the Foreign Office must be conducted by those who
  30
  are attending to it constantly; and if an outside power strikes in with suggestions which he insists shall be adopted, it is much more likely to produce confusion than to exercise control. On the other hand, as I explained to the House on a previous occasion, the large use of telegrams and the extensive employment of printing, really enable the Cabinet to supervise and control the conduct of the Foreign Office in a way which 20 or 30 years ago would have been absolutely impossible. My Lords, the noble Earl proceeded to repeat a criticism which he has made elsewhere, that our Cabinets were terribly rare and were terribly short. Well, that may be due, not to the paucity of business, but to other causes. I see that outside among labouring men there is a great objection to being employed by the piece; they all desire to be employed by time. Now I claim for Cabinet Ministers exactly the opposite treatment. Let us be employed and judged by the piece; let us not be judged by the amount of time that we sit at the table doing it. The time that any deliberative body spends over any business that is assigned to it depends upon the volubility of the persons who compose that deliberative body. If they are very free in the delivery of their opinions, if is likely that that deliberative body will sit for a long time, and will have to meet again. If they are able to practise conciseness, and to express their opinions in short and less diffuse language, then the work may be done more quickly. I am bound to say that the fault with which the noble Earl charges our Cabinet is largely due to myself. Other Prime Ministers have possessed that wealth of language, that diffuseness, that abundance, that power of carrying every subject into the furthest possible detail, and adorning it with all the verbal decorations of a fervid imagination and an unlimited vocabulary; and, of course, if the Prime Minister possesses those qualifications, his adoring and listening Cabinet will enjoy the advantage of a succession of brilliant speeches of which the world knows nothing, but necessarily the Cabinet must sit for a long time and must meet very often. But my poor hardbound brains cannot produce these tremendous speeches, I am sorry to say, and

  31
  the result is that we can get over our work in half an hour, an hour, or two hours. But if the noble Earl really thinks a larger exhibition of eloquence is absolutely necessary to the propel performance of our duty, I will try to find some person among our colleagues of authority who will entertain us for half an hour or three quarters of an hour with a speech at every Cabinet meeting. I would wish, however, to urge upon the noble Earl that he has omitted to consider a most important Constitutional doctrine. He seems to think that it is the duty of the Prime Minister alone to summon a Cabinet Council. That is not so. Any Member of the Cabinet can summon it whenever he pleases. I have never heard one word of complaint from any one of my sixteen colleagues that the meetings of the Cabinet have not been sufficiently frequent or that we sat too short a time; but I promise the noble Earl that, if there ever is an insurgent action in the Cabinet in that regard we will Correct the evil to which he has pointed. My Lords, there is much in the speech of the noble Earl to which I am happy to say it is not necessary for me to reply. I take it as a great compliment to Her Majesty's Government that he finds nothing in our present conduct to criticise, and so goes back to the ample volumes of ancient history. He goes back to the bombardment of Alexandria, Majuba Hill, the war scare, and other matters which I shall be willing to discuss with him if he will give me sufficient notice; but I frankly confess that I am now unable to deal with them with the fulness which I should desire. I cannot now discuss with him the battle and the peace of Majuba Hill, or whether peace was concluded because the Boers gave us all that we desired. That is not my recollection. I cannot now discuss with him whether Alexandria went entirely uninjured in consequence of the bombardment. I have a vague recollection of fires and of a sum of four millions in damages being paid by the Khedive; but those are matters which we may more profitably discuss on another occasion. I will only say that I think the noble Lord did not, when he intended to criticise me, pay me the compliment to read the observations I made at Nottingham. As far as my recollection goes, I only referred to the foreign policy- of the noble Earl for
  32
  one particular purpose. I pointed out to our fellow-workers the injustice of the charge that was made against the last Conservative Government of which I was Foreign Minister—a charge constantly made against us—that we pursued an adventurous policy. I said—
  "I ask you to judge the past by the present; I ask you to look at the last four years of our foreign policy and compare it with the policy of Mr. Gladstone's Government, and tell us whether peace and quiet, tranquillity and the absence of adventure were characteristics of the-first or the second of those two stretches of foreign policy."
  But at the same time I did not enter into a discussion of the merits of the noble Earl's policy; on the contrary, I frankly acknowledged the difficulties with which he had to contend. Now, my Lords, it is not only the ancient history of Penjdeh and Majuba Hill that the noble Lord has raised again, but he has again brought up before us the question whether a Bill which we passed two years ago, which is not mentioned in the Queen's Speech, and which is not before us in any document, is a Bill that we ought to have passed or not; and he proposes, finally, as I understand as a kind of exercise which it might be useful for me to perform, that I should now proceed to answer the speech of Lord Herschell made on that occasion. I can only accept these references to matters which have entirely passed by as proof that there is not much to comment upon or to condemn in our present policy. My Lords, may I say one word more in correction of the noble Earl's impression as to what I said at Nottingham? He assumes, as I understand him, that I promised that a certain proportion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's resources should be devoted to assist education. I am afraid that shows that the noble Earl gave a very unflattering study to my observations. I said exactly the reverse, and quoted what I had said at Newport. I said then, as I said at Nottingham, and as I say now, that, within limits, up to a certain point, there is in principle a Strong case to be made out for assisted education; that the question was one of finance more than of principle and that the application of the principle depended entirely upon the resources which the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have at his disposal, and the objects to which it might be his duty to

  33
  devote them. That is the statement which I made at Nottingham, and the statement which I repeat to-day. The noble Earl asks me whether we are satisfied that sending Sir John Simmons to the Vatican was a legal proceeding. I looked into the matter, not for that purpose, but when we sent the Duke of Norfolk to congratulate the Pope two years ago, or rather to return the congratulations of the Pope about the Jubilee. We examined into the matter, and took the advice that was at our disposal, and we were quite satisfied that there was no legal obstacle in the way of the measure we have taken. The policy in question I shall be happy to discuss with the noble Earl whenever he wishes. The mission is one purely concerning the affairs of Malta, and the noble Earl is aware that we are bound to maintain the Roman Catholic religion as established in that country; and if questions arise they have to be settled with the head of the Roman Catholic Church. Now, my Lords, I will say a few words with respect to Portugal. I entirely concur with all that has been said with regard to the pain which it has necessarily caused to Her Majesty's Government to have a strong difference of opinion with an ancient ally, and I think that when all the Papers which have been laid upon the Table, which will be distributed immediately, come into the hands of noble Lords, they will see that Portugal was warned again and again during the last two years that it was impossible for us to accept the claims which she made either to territory occupied by tribes that were under Her Majesty's protection, or to the territory occupied by British settlers along the course of the Shiré and the banks of the Lake Nyassa. The claims and intentions of this country in respect to those territories were again and again impressed upon the Portuguese Government. We had no wish to bring matters to an issue. If they had not sent Major Serpa Pinto with 4,000 armed men and a number of Gatling guns, if they had not taken steps which led to sanguinary collisions and violently hauled down the British flag, we should have been very pleased to leave the matter to a more leisurely settlement. But I think it is the general opinion of this country and the universal opinion of this House that it was absolutely
  34
  impossible for us to allow the natives of Africa to believe that we were incapable of defending those whom we had taken under our protection, or those missionaries and traders who had formed centres of civilisation and colonisation in that country which they had occupied so long. I did not understand the noble Earl to question the policy in general, but he seemed to think that when we had resolved that the Portuguese Government were not really complying with our request and that it was necessary to speak to them in tones of greater pressure, we might by doing it more slowly have made the operation more palatable to the Portuguese Government and have caused less annoyance among the population. But other considerations pressed themselves very strongly upon my mind. The danger was that if there was any great length of time given for the purpose of considering our demands the decision would pass from the councils of statesmen to the councils of the populace in the streets. The feeling among the populace was so inflammable, there were such elements of disorder, that it was doubtful whether the Government would be able to hold them in hand. We felt there was great danger if the matter was delayed that it would fall into the hands of public meetings to decide, and that the decision would be given in favour of resistance, and resistance must have brought with it probably bloodshed, and certainly considerable danger to the integrity of the Portuguese Monarchy. We were of opinion that to avoid those complications, and to avoid other complications into which I need not enter, it was necessary, when once we had resolved to indicate that greater pressure would be applied, that as little time should pass as possible before the ultimate decision was arrived at, and we came to that decision in the interests of Portugal and in the interests of humanity. The noble Earl asks me with respect to Mr. Consul Johnston's so-called negotiations. A most excellent and admirable Consul was Mr. Consul Johnston. He was going out to Zanzibar, and I requested him to go by way of Lisbon, as he was acquainted with the Portuguese, and had acquaintances in the town. I stated that we should be glad to know what his private impressions were with respect to the views taken in that city. Unofficial proposals were

  35
  made to him, which he transmitted, naturally not in a despatch, but in a private letter to one of the Under Secretaries. The proposals were necessarily unpalatable to the Foreign Office, because they involved a sacrifice of those very settlements on the Shiré and the Nyassa which are a part of the main subjects of our controversy. Therefore it was quite impossible for us to go further with that discussion. When the noble Lord asks me whether there are to be any manœuvres at Gibraltar I am bound to confess that I do not know. It is rather early to decide. I should doubt very much whether Lord George Hamilton knows where the manœuvres in August are to take place. I should think that the dangers which the noble Lord indicates with respect to the use of Gibraltar are somewhat exaggerated, but I have no knowledge whatever of any intention to conduct manĵuvres there. However, I have no doubt the considerations to which the noble Lord has referred will be carefully considered by the Admiralty. With respect to the state of Ireland, I may say that the noble Lord has expressed some considerable discontent because the Speech from the Throne is not a long one, and because our list of measures is not more voluminous. I can only say that if we pass all those measures I shall be exceedingly glad, although somewhat surprised; and I do not think any good object is attained by piling up promises year after year which our experience of the slow working of the Parliamentary machine must have convinced us by this time it is unable adequately to fulfil. The noble Lord demurred very much to our self-congratulations on the improved state of Ireland, and he produced a set of figures.
  EARL GRANVILLE: There is one question, before the noble Marquess deals with Ireland, with regard to the sugar bounties.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I think the ratification of the sugar bounties is not due until the end of next year, and we have always expressed our opinion that the ratification of that instrument must depend upon the amount of cooperation which we receive from the principal producers of sugar. I am bound to say that matters are not as favourable as they were at this time last year. The French Government have expressed them-
  36
  selves in very distinct language, which a year ago they had not done. The spirit of protection is stronger in the Government of the United States than it was then, and we have had from what was the Empire of Brazil an indication that Brazil is not disposed to take the view we take on the subject. I should be sorry to speak precipitately, because things change, and even in Brazil Governments are not absolutely perfect. I am not therefore able to promise the noble Lord an early introduction of the Bill. With respect to Ireland, the noble Lord showed by certain statistics which he had, and which I must say seem to me to be peculiarly his own, that crime had very much risen from the year 1879 to 1889. But the noble Lord was lost in hundreds of thousands, and I am not quite sure what particular calculation will come out to-morrow morning as the result of the noble Lord's arithmetical efforts. But if I may be permitted to do so, I should like to read some figures handed to me by my noble and learned Friend (Lord Ash bourne) showing what, from our point of view, is the real condition of persons boycotted wholly or partially in Ireland during the last three years. On the 30th of June, 1887, the number of persons boycotted wholly and partially was 4,901; on the 30th of June, 1888,the number had fallen to 1,324; on the 30th of June, 1889, the number had fallen to 317. On the 31st of December, 1889,the number had fallen to 152. Now, those figures seem to me to show very clearly that, whatever else has happened, or whatever the cause may be, boycotting has received a severe and exemplary blow in Ireland. I may state, perhaps, as also interesting with respect to agrarian crime, that in the quarter ending the 30th of June, 1887, the total was 231; in the quarter ending the 30th June, 1889, the number was 181; and in the quarter just ended, the 31st of December, 1889, the number had sunk to 95. We have, therefore, every ground for believing that the system of government that has been pursued in Ireland has tended to restore respect for law and for property and to diminish the prevalence of crime. That we can produce an absolute and immediate content, absolute peace, absolute harmony among the various parts of the population by any system that we can devise, we do not for

  37
  a moment pretend. Has anybody in the past been able to do such a thing in Ireland? Does the noble Lord for a moment believe that when Mr. Davitt and Mr. Parnell are installed at Dublin, and, are governing Ulster at their will, there will be perfect harmony and goodwill among all portions of the Irish population? It is impossible in a few years—it is impossible, I fear, in many years—to undo the evil work which centuries of hesitating government have caused. It is impossible to produce an agreement among men of different and hostile creeds, of different races, of antagonistic traditions, to restore a harmony which has never existed there, and, I may almost say, has hardly existed in any other part of the world where similar conditions obtain. But we can do our best to enable that plant of harmony to grow, and we believe that all history points to this lesson—that it is only under the shadow of a just, discriminating, and firm government that the plant of harmony, of love, and goodwill among the various sections of the population can, even after the lapse of many generations, be expected to grow.
  Address agreed to, nemine dissentiente, and ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
The Earl of MORLEY appointed, nemine dissentiente, to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for this Session.
COMMITTEE FOR PRIVILEGES—Appointed.
SUB-COMMITTEE FOR THE JOURNALS — Appointed.
STOPPAGES IN THE STREETS—Order to prevent, renewed.
APPEAL COMMITTEE—Appointed.

CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
  DURATION OF SPEECHES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS BILL.
  A Bill to ascertain and limit the duration of speeches in the House of Lord—Was presented by the Lord Denman; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 4.)
  ARCHDEACONRY OF CORNWALL BILL.
  A Bill to amend the law as to the endowment of the Archdeaconry of Cornwall—Was presented by the Lord steward; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 5.)

  HARES PRESERVATION BILL.
  A Bill to provide a close time for hares in England, Scotland, and Wales—Was presented by the Lord Stanley of Alderley; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 6.
  House adjourned at half-past Six o'clock to Thursday next, a quarter past Ten o'clock.