Lords Sitting of 8 December 1890

SAT FIRST.
The Earl Cairns, after the death of his brother.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I rise to ask the noble Marquess whether he will be good enough to state to the House the course of business he proposes?
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): It is very important that two Bills for the relief of distress in Ireland should receive the Royal Assent before the House separates, and, therefore, we propose to meet early to-morrow in order to complete the necessary stages before the Royal Commission in the evening. We propose then to adjourn to the 22nd of January, except, of course, for legal business.

THE PORTUGUESE AND ENGLISH IN AFRICA.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE: There is a question I should like to put to the noble Marquess. It is, whether he can give us any further information than that which has appeared in the newspapers with regard to the incident connected with Colonel Andrade—the reported hauling down of the British flag by the Portuguese in Africa?
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am afraid I can give no information which would be of any use. The Portuguese and the English accounts appear to differ considerably, as far as we can gather from the imperfect and somewhat obscure telegrams. I prefer, therefore, not to say anything until we have received information by despatch.

THE EDUCATION CODE.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD NORTON: I beg to ask the noble Lord the President of the Council at
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  what date it is likely that the Education Code will be laid on the Table when the House meets again after the adjournment, whether it will be before Easter or later?
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK): My Lords, my noble Friend had not given me any notice of this question, so that I cannot answer it very particularly; but I have no reason to suppose there will be any cause for delay in laying the Code on the Table, and I have no doubt it will be done as early as he can wish.

  CHILDREN'S LIFE INSURANCE BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law relating to insurances on the lives of children—Was presented by the Earl of Harrowby (for the Lord Bishop of Peterborough); read la; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Thursday, the 22nd of January next. (No. 16.)

  TRANSFER OF RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 15.)
  Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House; Standing Orders Nos. XXXIX. and XLV. considered (according to order), and dispensed with.
  Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee; agreed to.
  House in Committee accordingly.
  Clause 17.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I propose to omit, in Clause 17, all after the words "promoters shall be aided by a capital sum out of public money," and to make the clause read thus:—
  "Where the Treasury in pursuance of the Light Railways (Ireland) Act, 1889, have agreed with the promoters of any light railway that the undertaking of the promoters shall be aided by a capital sum out of public money, the promoters, before the arbitrator has framed his draft award, may enter upon any land which they are authorised to take, on depositing in the Bank of Ireland such sum as may be certified to be proper by such valuer as may be appointed for the purpose by the Commissioners of Public Works, and the Treasury on the request of the promoters shall cause to be paid into the Bank, out of such capital sum, any sum required to be deposited in the Bank for the above purpose, and the Railways Acts (Ireland), 1851 and 1860, and the Acts amending the same, shall, as amended by this section, apply accordingly."
  I may mention that the object of the Amendment is to harmonise the Bill

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  with Irish legislation. The draftsman has apparently taken the analogy of the Lands Clauses Act of England, and has made the machinery of that Act apply to the Bill. He seems to have forgotten that the Lands Clauses Consolidation Act for Ireland is a totally different measure, and that its machinery is different, and the effect of my Amendment is to restore the Bill to a form which will make it in harmony with the Irish legislation.
  Amendment agreed to; the Report thereof received; Bill read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  HARES PRESERVATION BILL [H.L.] (No. 4.)
  House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without amendment: Amendments made; and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.
  ARCHDEACONRY OF CORNWALL BILL [H.L.]—(No. 8.)
  House in Committee (according to order): Bill reported without amendment; and to be read 3a to-morrow.
DURATION OF SPEECHES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS BILL [H.L.]—(No. 14.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD DENMAN: My Lords, this is the third time I have brought forward a Bill on this subject. On the first occasion I presumed to include the House of Commons, but on consideration I thought it was better that I should not attempt to dictate to another branch of the Legislature the adoption of that which should be approved of in this House. I happen to know that there is a Bill pressing forward in another place, and I believe that the author of that Bill would be perfectly ready to support any measure which your Lordships approved of. In the case of procedure a great deal has been done in this direction, and full latitude was given to Privy Councillors to speak for an unlimited time; but certainly that does not seem to me to tend to the rapid transaction of business. I
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  think that the substitution of an hourglass for regulating time would be an improvement. It certainly would be less offensive than to have a bell sounding in your Lordships' ears. I have no other wish on the subject than to provide for the transaction of Public Business being less clogged than it has often been hitherto. I would venture to remind your Lordships that in 1831 Mr. Stanley brought forward a Bill upon the subject. The only person who opposed it was Mr. Shaw, the Recorder of Dublin. He divided the House 17 times, and although it was a Wednesday Sitting, the House sat on until an early hour in the morning. I wish to see everything go smoothly, and I will do my best to facilitate the fair and proper consideration of Public Business.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Denman.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I think, perhaps, we had better reserve our energies for more urgent and serious grievances than this, and that we need not consider a proposal of this kind until the Debates in your Lordships' House assume such a character as to render it necessary. Any person who is not content with the speed at which your Lordships transact business in this House and who complains of the duration of time which you devote to it in making speeches must, indeed, be very hard to please. I think that whenever the speeches in this House come to be of the model referred to by the noble Lord, when a speaker carried on his speech until 1 o'clock in the morning, your Lordships may very well undertake some such reform as this; but until that condition of things comes about, we had better do without this legislation. I am compelled to make the unusual Motion, that this Bill be read a second time this day ten months.
  Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and add at the end of the Motion ("this day ten months.")—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
  On Question whether ("now") shall stand part of the Motion, resolved in the negative.
  Bill to be read 2a this day ten months.

SEED POTATOES SUPPLY (IRELAND) BILL.

  BROUGHT FROM THE COMMONS.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN): In asking your Lordships to give a First Reading to this Bill, which is one of the two measures for the relief of distress in Ireland to which the Prime Minister alluded at an earlier stage of the proceedings, perhaps I may be allowed to say that its object is to enable the poorer occupiers in various districts in Ireland to obtain seed potatoes at a reasonable price. The provisions of the Bill are very similar to those of the Seed Supply Act which was passed in 1880. Its general object is to secure that there shall be a proper supply of seed potatoes for next year's crop brought to the doors of the poorer occupiers in those districts where, at present, it would be very difficult to obtain it. For this purpose different Boards of Guardians are empowered to apply to the Local Government Board for loans in any division of a Poor Law Union where such a state of things exists, and where it would be impossible for the inhabitants to retain seed potatoes because they will have to eat all the potatoes of which they are now possessed. If the Local Government Board approves, the loan will be made on the security of the poors rate of the division, and will be repayable by half-yearly payments during 1892 and 1893, but the interest is to be payable out of the Irish Church Temporalities Fund. The main objects of the Bill are that seed potatoes shall be brought to the doors of the poorer occupiers, that they will obtain that supply at cost price, that they will have two years' credit, during which time they will make payment to the Board of Guardians for the potatoes they have bought, and the middleman will thus be got rid of. I hope your Lordships will allow me to give notice of a Motion to suspend Standing Order No. XXXIX., in order that this Bill may be passed through its remaining stages at an early Sitting tomorrow.
  Bill read 1a; and to be read 2a to-morrow; and Standing Orders Nos. XXXIX. and XLV. to be considered in order to their being dispensed with.

  FISHERY BOARD (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN): I have to ask your Lordships to allow me to introduce a Bill entitled——
  "An Act to alter the Constitution of the Fishery Board for Scotland, and to amend the laws in respect of the mussel fisheries in Scotland."
  I had hoped your Lordships would have passed the Bill before the Recess, but circumstances over which we had no control prevented that. I have now, therefore, only to ask your Lordships to read the Bill a first time.
  A Bill to alter the Constitution of the Fishery Board for Scotland, and to amend the law in regard to mussel fisheries in Scotland—Was presented by the Lord Ker (M. Lothian); read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 17.)

  CUSTODY OF CHILDREN BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law relating to the custody of children—Was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 18.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till to-morrow, half-past Ten o'clock.