Lords Sitting of 18 March 1889

PUBLIC BUILDINGS IN THE METROPOLIS-PERSONAL EXPLANATION-LORD LAMINGTON.
LORD LAMINGTON: My Lords, I have received a letter from Mr. Pearson, the architect engaged in connection with the alterations at Westminster Hall, in consequence of which I desire to correct a mis-statement I made in calling your Lordships' attention on Monday last to the general question of public buildings in the Metropolis. I stated that there was only one entrance to the upper floor. Mr. Pearson informs me that there are three entrances to the rooms on the upper floor, and two entrances to the rooms on the lower floor. I did full justice to the exterior architecture of the building; but, in spite of this letter from Mr. Pearson, who seems rather aggrieved at what I said, I still
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think that it is a great pity that the alterations should have been so carried out as to render some of the rooms practically useless. In saying this, of course, I do not wish to impute any fault to Mr. Pearson; it is the design adopted by the Select Committee on Westminster Hall of which I complain.

H.M.S. SULTAN.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: Seeing in his place the noble Lord who represents the Admiralty in this House, I beg to ask whether any definite information has been received respecting the disaster to H.M.S. Sultan?
LORD ELPHINSTONE: The Commander-in-Chief in the Mediterranean reports that the Sultan grounded on a rock or patch of rocks unmarked on the charts, and where deep water is shown. In fact, she is on the ten-fathom line, and 400 yards from the shore. Of course, whether this is due to defective survey or to recent volcanic action cannot at present be determined. The Commander-in-Chief has been instructed to cause every inquiry to be

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made locally, from fishermen and others likely to know, as to whether anything was known of the exact position of this rock. The channel was surveyed in 1857. The circumstances of the stranding of the Sultan will be fully investigated by a court-martial that will be held at Portsmouth under the presidency of the Commander-in-Chief at that port.
VISCOUNT SIDMOUTH: May I ask whether any hopes are entertained of raising the vessel?
LORD ELPHINSTONE: We have no further information of any kind beyond the telegraphic despatch which I have read; but we expect to get fuller information to-morrow morning.

DURATION OF SPEECHES IN PARLIAMENT BILL (No. 21.)
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
*LORD DENMAN: My Lords, this is a measure the object of which I have had the honour to explain to your Lordships on former occasions. I have to apologise for naming the House of Commons, but your Lordships may in Committee strike out those words, and if the Bill should be in Committee in another place, the words might be re-instated. It is directed especially against the practice of speakers in Parliament of speaking against time according to orders, similar to the orders given by the owner of a racehorse to his jockey, which is a practice unworthy of Parliament, and one which greatly impedes public business. I would urge upon your Lordships that, at least, this Bill can do no harm. We have many instances of assemblies in which there is a time limit, and it is always found that those who address the meeting conform to the time prescribed, with very few exceptions. If your Lordships doubt the necessity for such a measure, I need only refer you to the pages of Hansard for 1887–8 to prove the existence of the evil against which the Bill is directed. I am afraid anything I could say would have very little influence with your Lordships, but I have determined to do my duty in a straightforward way; and, without wearying your Lordships with a long speech, I now move the Second Reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(Lord Denman.)
THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of): My Lords, I do not think the time has arrived for, at any rate, this House to take up such a measure as this. I certainly have not noticed here the evil of undue prolixity to which the noble Lord has referred. If ever that evil arises, and business should get into the position in which we are told it is in another place, I should be glad to accept the assistance of my noble Friend in coping with the difficulty. I think if the noble Lord would go over the way and propose his measure there, it might have some beneficial effect; but, so far as this House is concerned, I feel I shall be carrying your Lordships' consciousness with me when I move that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Amendment moved, to leave out the word "now," and add at the end of the Motion "this day six months."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question whether the word "now" stand part of the Motion, resolved in the negative.
Bill to be read 2a this day six months.

WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE BILL (No. 22).
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
LORD DENMAN: With regard to this proposal, it is again one which your Lordships have had before you on more than one occasion. In the Representation of the People Bill, the noble Marquess, then Leader of the Opposition, secured me four days in order for the insertion of my Amendment as to Women's Suffrage, without which the Bill seemed to me to be imperfect. It seems to me not only a ludicrous anomaly, but a great hardship, that whilst labourers and others employed on a certain estate have the franchise, the owner of the estate, if she happens to be a widow or a spinster, should not be on at least equal terms. In the House of Commons the Second Reading of a Bill similar to this has once been carried, although in a manner not very creditable to that House. If your Lordships grant the Second Reading of this Bill it will be a gracious act; it will commit

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you to nothing, and the details of the measure can be thrashed out in Committee.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read2a"—(The Lord Denman.)
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am sorry to appear in any way obstructive, especially on a question as to the main points of which I am in general agreement with the noble Lord, But, my Lords, I hold that it is a very important principle that each House should look after its own constitution. I would not encourage any proposals by the House of Commons as to the constitution of the House of Lords, and nothing would be more calculated to have that effect than if your Lordships were to consent to this proposal. On this short ground, I beg to move that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Amendment moved, to leave out "now," and add at the end of the Motion "this day six months."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
EARL GRANVILLE: I understand that, on a previous occasion, the noble Marquess expressed himself in favour of the principle of the measure. It would no doubt, have greater weight if Her Majesty's Government introduced a Bill on the subject in the other House of Parliament.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: When I uttered the opinion to which the noble Lord refers, I was very careful to say that it was only my own personal opinion that I was expressing, and I did not in any way speak on behalf of Her Majesty's Government.
On Question, That the word "now" stand part of the Motion, resolved in the negative.
Bill to be read 2a this day six months.

LAND TRANSFER BILL (No. 8).

  APPOINTMENT OF SELECT COMMITTEE.
  The Lords following were named of the Committee—

  L. Chancellor

  L. Arundell of Wardour

  M. Bath

  L. Thurlow

  E. Stanhope

  L. Hartismere (L. Henniker)

  E. Milltown

  L. Watson

  E. Morley

  L. Hobhouse

  E. Beauchamp

  L. Esher

  E. Kimberley

  L. Herschell

  E. Feversham

  L. Thring

  E. Selborne

LICENSING ACT, 1872, AMENDMENT BILL (NO. 25).
A Bill to amend the Licensing Act, 1872, as to the granting licences for sale of intoxicating liquors at railway stations—Presented by the Earl Beauchamp; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday, the 26th instant.

COMPANIES RELIEF BILL (NO. 26).
A Bill to set at rest questions affecting certain shares issued under contracts filed under Section 25 of the Companies Act, 1867—Presented by the Lord Wigan (E. Crawford); read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday, the 26th instant.
House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.