Lords Sitting of 20 June 1889

REPRESENTATIVE PEER FOR IRELAND.
EARL OF LISBURNE—Report made from the Lord Chancellor, that the right of Ernest George Henry Arthur Earl of Lisburne to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
MASTER AND SERVANT BILL,
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, and to be printed (No. 111).
ADVANCE NOTES TO SEAMEN BILL. (No. 93)

  SECOND READING.
  LORD BALFOUR: My Lords, I will not trouble you with many observations in moving the Second Reading of this Bill. The object of the Bill is to amend the Act of 1880, one of the clauses in which prohibits altogether the payment of seamen's wages by means of advance notes. As your Lordships know, the conditions under which sailors are employed make it impossible that their wages can always be paid to them monthly or at any stated time as the wages are earned, and the usual custom is that they are paid in one sum at the conclusion of their engagement. In the case of those men who may have been improvident, or in the case of those who may have met with wholly undeserved misfortune, it is often the case that when they want to make a new engagement they may be without the means of
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  providing themselves with the necessary outfit. By the Act of 1880 shipowners and those who were employing sailors are not allowed to make any conditional advance to them of money out of what they would earn during their coming engagement to enable them to enter upon it. A practice had grown up in reference to the matter among shipowners and employers in the ports throughout the United Kingdom of giving advance notes, which led to practrces injurious to the sailors, and in 1880 the Legislature absolutely prohibited those conditional advance notes. A clause was put in the Bill—which became law in that year — which prevented sums of money so paid being deducted from the amount earned, and which would have had to be paid at the conclusion of the engagement. The clause enacting this prohibition has not worked well. It has not served its purpose. It has proved to be very easily evaded, and in this way among others. Sailors, and those who employ them, have made engagements to work for 1s. or other small sums for one or two months, but at the same time a promissory note which they could discount has been given to them to make up the difference between the 1s. and the amount for which they were actually working. It is not possible to go behind such an engagement as that, and therefore the clause in the Act of 1880 has been practically evaded. The matter has been carefully considered by the very strong Commission which was appointed to inquire into matters concerning loss of life at sea, and they came unanimously to this finding—that, while the practice which I have just mentioned to your Lordships was extremely inadvisable upon the evidence before

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  them, it was almost impossible to dispense with the system altogether, under which seamen procure advances out of their earnings when at sea, whereby they might be enabled to provide themselves with necessaries, kit, and so on, and they recommended that the wisest course would be to legalise the practice, limiting advances in all cases to an amount not exceeding one month's wages. That recommendation has been very much pressed on the Board of Trade, and the Bill which I have now to lay before your Lordships is simply and solely for the purpose of giving effect to it, and allowing the sum so advanced, being not more than one month's wages, to be deducted at the conclusion of the engagement from the sum due to the sailor. The Bill has been unanimously passed in the other House of Parliament, and I now beg to move in your Lordships' House that the Bill be now read a second time.
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to the Standing Committee of Bills relating to Law, &c.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL. (No. 108).

  SECOND READING.
  LORD BALFOUR: My Lords, this Bill is somewhat longer than the Bill which I have just moved should be read a second time. I may explain that it has for its object the amendment of the measure passed on the same subject in 1878. That Act has very generally and almost entirely fulfilled the purpose for which it was passed, but the eleven years which have elapsed and the experience gained has shown that in some essential and important particulars it is capable of amendment. There has grown up under the operation of the Act considerable diversity of practice among the various Local Authorities who are charged with the appoinment of inspectors to put the provisions of the Act in force. There has been also a very general demand for some more systematic inspection for the purpose of checking frauds, and more especially those frauds which are likely to be committed at the expense of the poorer classes of the population, who are on that account less able to protect themselves. The Bill which I ask your Lordships to read may be divided into two main
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  parts. The first part relates entirely to the amendment of the law of 1878—that is to say, the law which relates to the inspection and verification of weights and measures. The other part deals with new provisions, new at least to the general law of the land, with regard to the sale of coal by weight. I need not detain your Lordships at any length at the present time, because with the exception of one or two points to which I will shortly refer, almost all the clauses deal with points which Rare essentially matters of detail, and which will, therefore, be more fitly considered by the House in Committee should your Lordships be willing to give the Bill a Second Reading. The general scope of those clauses is to enlarge the powers of Local Authorities. Power is given to the Board of Trade to make general regulations upon some technical points, which have been largely misunderstood by certain of the smaller Local Authorities which had to put them in force. If those points had been as well understood by some of the smaller Local Boards, as they have been worked in the larger communities, there would have been no occasion to make this correction. Your Lordships will see that it is very desirable that in matters of this kind there should be a uniform practice and method of enforcing the law. It is not intended to interfere with the just prerogatives of Local Authorities and their just discretion, but only to lay down general rules for heir guidance and instruction. One important Amendment is new so far as the existing law is concerned—that is to say, it is proposed that Local Authorities and the Inspectors acting under them should have the power and the duty of inspecting and verifying weighing machines as well as the weights used in connection with them. Your Lordships will easily understand that just as serious frauds may be committed by the use of improper weighing machines as by the use of faulty weights. That is, of course, weighing machines used as between buyer and seller. It is not proposed to interfere with weighing machines which may be used in private establishments for purposes other than those of sale. In this matter the Government are only following the precedent of almost every other European country and the large majority of our colonies in which similar

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  provisions have been found to be of use. Then there are certain clauses which provide for an increase of penalties and forfeiture of fraudulent weights and weighing machines where it is clearly proved that these have been wilfully and persistently used. There is also a clause allowing the Board of Trade to make provision for fixing new denominations of standards as they may be required to meet the exigencies of trade and the demands of society. That is obviously a matter of very pressing necessity, and one which your Lordships, if you pass this Bill, will give power to the Board of Trade to deal with. There is also a power asked for to test the qualifications of those who are to be in future appointed Inspectors of Weights and Measures, but this provision will not apply to existing appointments. It has sometimes been complained of that Local Authorities appoint persons who have not the necessary qualifications or education for the discharge of important duties devolving upon them. Of course that provision would not interfere with persons who are actually in possession of appointments, but is only intended to ensure that persons who in future should receive appointments would have the necessary qualifications. My Lords, I think that is all I need say with regard to the general provisions for the amendment of the existing law. I think it right I should also mention that before the Committee stage I shall have to put on the Notice Paper an Amendment dealing with one clause inserted at a late stage of the progress of the Bill through the other House of Parliament—I mean the 13th Clause, which gives the right to the officials of the Post Office to have their weights tested without any charge, and I propose to amend it by words providing that the clause shall only apply to weights used exclusively and wholly in the service of the Post Office. In the case of those who carried on other businesses not strictly postal business alone, it has not been thought fair that they should have their weights, used for the general purposes of trade, verified free of expense. I will place an Amendment on the Paper so as to give ample opportunity to those who take an interest in the matter, to see that it fulfils the purpose intended. The
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  second portion of the Bill is that which, for the first time, applies a general provision to secure that there shall be no fraud in the sale of coal—that it shall be sold by weight alone. That is the practice and the law so far as Scotland is concerned at present. It is also the state of the law in the Metropolitan district, but I am told that with regard to the Metropolitan district, this provision will expire on the 5th of July. It is therefore desirable that the existing practice should be not only maintained, but that it should be extended for the avoidance of fraud in the country generally. There is a provision in an old Act of Parliament declaring that coal shall be sold by weight and not by measure, but it has been laid down by judicial decisions that those who are prosecuted for selling coal otherwise than by weight must have it alleged and proved against them not only that they have not sold by weight, but that they have sold by measure. Therefore, those who wish to commit a fraud with impunity simply avoid selling by measure, and in that way escape the consequences as provided by the Act. This Bill will amend the law in the direction of that which exists in Scotland. The clauses which deal with this point are almost substantially the same as are now a portion of the law of Scotland. It is also provided that a weight ticket should be given by any seller of coal to the purchaser, and this ticket will be found set out in the third schedule of the Bill. It was the same as is in force in Scotland, and it has been found to work well, though it has been slightly simplified. There are also provisions for the protection of those who sell coal without any fraudulent intent, but who, by the action of carmen or persons in their employment, would otherwise be liable to be prosecuted for selling an insufficient quantity of coal. It is provided that if it is proved that sufficient weight has been delivered to the carman the master shall escape prosecution. There are other clauses of the nature which I have indicated, but they are really matters of details and will be better considered in Committee than on the occasion of a Second Reading. If, on the other hand, there is any explanation I can give, perhaps it would be better that I should do so by the indulgence of the House upon questions

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  which may be asked, rather than that I should take up the time of the House by going over matters which would occupy considerable time. I have to move that this Bill be read a second time.
  LORD MONKSWELL: My Lords, before this Bill is read a second time, I should like, on behalf of the London County Council, to state that the Amendment which the noble Lord proposes to move will not remove the objection which they take to the clause. The County Council feel that the clause providing for the Post Office having their weights verified free of expense is exceedingly unjust, and I shall on the proper occasion move its rejection. It is thought that the Postmaster General ought to see to his own weights and measures, or at all events pay for their examination by others.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: My Lords, I desire on behalf of local taxpayers to make one remark. I cannot for one moment see on what possible ground Government should charge on the local rates the expense of verifying the weights of the Post Offices. The Post Office is a Government Department, and it seems to me that the Local Authorities ought not to be saddled with the expense of the verification of the weights used in connection with it. I am glad that my noble Friend proposes to move an Amendment to that effect, and so prevent any such burden being thrown upon local rates and taxes.
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to the Standing Committee for Bills relating to Law, &c.

  ASSIZES RELIEF BILL (No. 96.)
  Commons Amendments to Lords Amendments considered (according to order), and agreed to.

  PURCHASE OF LAND (IRELAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL (No. 84.)
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o clock.