HL Deb 11 July 1889 vol 338 cc86-105

SECOND READING.

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

* LORD KNUTSFORD

This Bill contains but few clauses, and is simple in form; but it has an important bearing upon one of our great Australian Colonies, Western Australia, and the progress of the Bill through Parliament will be watched with a deep and lively interest in that colony. The object of the Bill is to enable Her Majesty to assent to a Bill which has been passed by the Legislative Council in Western Australia, and has been reserved for Her Majesty's consent. By that Bill, which is scheduled to the Imperial Bill, a great change is made in the Constitution of the colony, and responsible Government is substituted for representative Government. If this change is made, Western Australia will be placed upon the same Constitutional footing as the other great colonies of Australia. The present Constitution is, as I have said, a representative Government, and consists of a Governor, an Executive Council, and a Legislative Council, 26 in number, nine of whom are nominated and 17 elected. This system is an intermediate stage between the Government which obtains in a Crown colony pure and simple, and responsible Government. In a Crown colony pure and simple the Crown is responsible for the Government of the colony; but it has a majority by which it can secure the passing of such measures as are necessary for the good Government of the colony. On the other hand, in a colony under a responsible Government the Ministers are responsible to the people, and command a majority in the Colonial Parliament. The disadvantage of the intermediate stage of representative Government is that the Crown remains largely responsible for the Government of the colony, but it cannot command a majority. The system places an insuperable power of obstructing and delaying measures in the hands of the Colonial Legislature, which is not responsible for the conduct of affairs. That system may work smoothly enough in smaller colonies and in quiet times; but when burning questions arise, and there are matters of difference between the Executive and Legislature, it leads to complications, and a considerable amount of friction. For this reason it is admitted by those who have had the control of colonial affairs that that system is suitable only for an intermediate stage; and that when a colony is fit for responsible Government the sooner it is given the better. This view is strongly confirmed by what has passed in Western Australia. A representative Government was granted to Western Australia in 1870, and in 1873, only three years later, a movement was made in favour of responsible Government, and the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Kimberley), who was then Secretary for the Colonies, replied that, while the Governor himself ought not to take any steps towards disturbing the existing arrangements, Her Majesty's Government would not be disposed to resist any widespread and sustained desire which might prevail in the colony for responsible Government. In 1874 the Governor, at the request of the Council, sent over a draft Constitution Bill; but the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon), then Secretary for the Colonies, rightly decided that the colony was not ripe for the change. There is one passage in his despatch of November 18 which, as it has a direct and important bearing on the case, I will read to your Lordships. Lord Carnarvon wrote— I am and can be actuated by no feeling of indisposition towards those principles of responsible Government which have had full play elsewhere on the Australian Continent, and have reproduced the free institutions of the Mother Country in no unworthy form. Those institutions are the proper and desirable end to which the colony tends, at which it must in time arrive, and towards which all those, whether there or at home, who are concerned in the administration of its affairs, ought to direct their measures. These latter words confirm the view that Representative Government is merely transitional, and express very clearly and concisely the manner in which those who seek for Responsible Government should be approached by the Home Government. I pass on, my Lords, from 1874 to 1883 with only one observation, that the subject of a change to Responsible Government did not make much progress, though from time to time it was revived in the colony. The correspondence in 1883 and up to the present time will be found in the Parliamentary Papers, C. 5743 and C. 5752. and I need only refer very briefly to one or two stages in the case. In 1883 an Address was sent to this country by the Legislative Council asking on what terms Responsible Government would be granted, and Lord Derby, then Secretary of State for Colonial Affairs, wrote a carefully-worded despatch of July 23, 1883, which certainly deserves very careful consideration, as setting out the views of Her Majesty's Government, but which I shall not at present refer to further, though I shall have occasion later on to refer to one passage in it, which bears upon the land question. It is to be found in page 3 of the Parliamentary Papers which have been recently presented to Parliament. In 1884 the present Governor, Sir F. Napier Broome, after he had been 10 months in the colony, reported his opinion on the state of things as follows:— Though I see no valid reason for with-holding free institutions from this colony after its inhabitants shall have expressed a general and decided wish to take upon themselves the burden and the responsibility of that form of Government, I am strongly of opinion that, until such a wish shall have been expressed, which certainly it has not been as yet, it would be a mistake to make this great and irretrievable change. Furthermore, while I concede that the colony has reached a stage at which a claim to its birthright, if deliberately insisted upon, should not he refused, I nevertheless think that Western Australia would do well to delay its majority for a time until its wealth and population shall have still further increased, and until (what is hardly the case as yet) the community contains within itself a good ballast weight of public opinion and a sufficient complement of qualified public men to govern on the Party system. He also considered at that time that Western Australia, if the change were made, should be separated into two parts, and that the Northern portion above the 26th degree of latitude should remain for the present a Crown colony. Upon both these points, however, after he had more experience of the working of the Constitution, and after he had ascertained more fully the wishes of the Legislature and of the people, he changed his opinion, and became a strong advocate for granting responsible Government to Western Australia, and placing the whole of the country under a responsible Ministry. In 1887 two Resolutions were passed by the Legislative Council in favour of Responsible Government by a majority of 13 to 4, and sent over to this country. Those Resolutions were accepted in principle by Her Majesty's Government, but with reservation of details, including special provisions for the Northern district and protection for the natives. I will not trouble your Lordships with further reference to my despatch of December 22, 1887, but only allude to it as setting forth the views of Her Majesty's present Government on this important question. In May, 1888, a draft Constitution Bill was sent over, and after careful consideration of its provisions I sent out in the following August a revised Bill to the colony. I will only trouble your Lordships with one passage of my despatch of the 31st of August. I said— In conclusion, I have to state that, should the Bill which 1 now send be adopted by the Legislative Council, I shall be prepared to take steps for the introduction into Parliament of the Bill which, as I have already informed you, it will be necessary should be passed before Her Majesty can be advised to assent to the measure. Her Majesty's Government do not, however, desire to preclude the Council from altering any details in the Bill so long as the main principles are maintained, especially the nominated Council, the division of the colony for the purposes of land regulations, and the protection of the native inhabitants of the colony. At the same time, if any material alterations are desired, I should wish you to furnish me with a full explanation of the reasons for such alterations. Your Lordships will see that three conditions were laid down as essential to any change in the form of Government. Considerable discussion arose upon these three conditions; but Her Majesty's Government adhered to them, and the revised Bill, with some Amendments, has been accepted and passed by the Legislative Council, and is the measure now submitted for Her Majesty's assent. I will now direct the attention of your Lordships to four important questions which arise in connection with, this proposed change. The first question, which lies really at the root of the whole matter, is whether it is expedient to grant the colony Responsible Government; in other words, whether the colony has made sufficient progress and advance in population, wealth, education, and general and material prosperity to justify the change. I submit, without hesitation, that a case has been made out for assenting to the strongly expressed desire of the colonists, which, I may observe in passing, is strongly supported by the other Australian Governments. I would point out that the existing system of Representative Government leads constantly to complications and difficulties, and that the time has arrived when a change is desirable. And on this part of the case I would refer to a passage in a despatch of the 12th of July, 1887, in which the Governor says— It is, therefore, enough that I should clearly express my conviction that Responsible Government ought now to be granted to Western Australia, for the reason that the colony has progressed to the stage at which such institutions may be adopted, and has passed the stage at which the Government can be satisfactorily carried on under the existing Constitution, even when that Constitution is administered—as I have always, with the full consent of yourself and your predecessors, tried to administer it—in the most liberal manner consistent with its framework. I submit also to your Lordships that there is another very important reason why the proposed change should be made in the Government of Western Australia. It is desirable that the colonies on the Australian Continent should be placed as soon as practicable on the same Constitutional footing. Until there is uniformity of Government in the different colonies forming that Continent, there can be little chance of any system of federation, to which I, for one, look forward as a system which will largely tend to an increase of strength and wealth in those colonies. It is urged against the change that the population of Western Australia is small, and that sufficient progress has not been made. I prefer to concur in the view that, with a population of 40,000, with an increasing revenue of upwards of £137,000, with a large development of goldfields and other industries, and increase of construction of railways and telegraphs, and other proofs of progress, it cannot be said that Western Australia is not sufficiently advanced to be capable of managing her own affairs if she be so inclined. We are not without precedent for this course. No one can doubt that the colony of Queensland has greatly flourished under Responsible Government; but when Queensland was separated from New South Wales, and was given Responsible Government, she had only 28,000 inhabitants, as against 40,000 in Western Australia, and it was not until years after Queensland had received Responsible Government that in other points she attained to the present position of Western Australia. The population was not so great; the construction of railways and telegraphic communication was very much less; and it was not, as I have said, until many years after Responsible Government was granted to her that Queensland reached that stage of progress at which Western Australia has already arrived. And, with reference to the progress made by Western Australia, I may mention to your Lordships that in 1883 there were only 53 miles of railway in Western Australia; there are now 422 miles. In 1883 there were only 280 miles of telegraphs; there are now 2,970 miles. Western Australia has three large goldfields, and it is probable that more will be developed. In 1882 the revenue of the colony was £250,000; now it is £357,000, and is increasing. I submit that these figures show that the colony is ripe for the change of Government, and that the first question must be answered in the affirmative. The second question is as to the form of the Constitution which is to be granted. Speaking generally, the new Constitution is on the same lines as the Constitution which has been given to each of the other Australian colonies, and under which these Colonies have so greatly flourished. The main question of difference that arose between Her Majesty's Government and the Colonial Government referred to the constitution of the Legislative Council—that is to say, the Upper House. Looking to the number of the population, Her Majesty's Government were, and still are, of opinion that in the first instance, at all events, the Upper House should be nominated and not elective. I am bound to admit that the existing Legislative Council, by a. majority of 11 out of 14, were in favour of election; and, looking to the fact that already in three Australian colonies—South Australia, Victoria, and Tasmania—the elective principle prevails, Her Majesty's Government were prepared to agree to a compromise—that if, at the end of six years or after the population had increased to 60,000, the Ministers of the day were desirous that a change should be made from nomination to election, we should not oppose it; and that compromise appears in the Bill which is in the Schedule to the Imperial Bill. The third question is, whether the whole area of land shall be left under the control of the responsible Ministers of the colony. The Governor and Legislative Council were of opinion that it might be left safely under that control, but after carefully considering the whole question, Her Majesty's Government concurred in the view expressed by the noble Earl opposite (Earl Derby) in a despatch dated July 23, 1883, to which I have before referred and from which I will quote a single paragraph. Lord Derby writes— While I am of opinion that under Responsible Government the control of the Crown lands generally would have to be vested in the colonial Parliament, it appears to me, as at present advised, that it would he necessary to make an exception in respect of those northern Crown lands which would be likely to form a separate colony at an early date. Adhering to that view I suggested, in December, 1887, a scheme to meet the difficulties of the case, and that scheme is found at page 24 of the Parliamentary Paper. The scheme was as follows:— That for the purpose of dealing with all questions as to disposal of waste lands of the Crown the colony shall be taken to he divided at about latitude 26 (or in the neighbourhood of the Murchison River), north of which the population is, you inform me, estimated at not more than 2,000 persons. That it shall be lawful for the Legislature of Western Australia to regulate by Act passed in the usual way the sale, letting and other disposal of the waste lands of the Crown south of that line, and the disposal of proceeds arising therefrom. That all the regulations affecting the sale, letting, disposal, and occupation of waste lands of the Crown in the territory north of that line shall remain under the control of Her Majesty's Government, the proceeds of all land sales being invested at interest, to form a fund of which the principal would be reserved for the benefit of any colony or colonies which may hereafter be created in such northern territory, except in go far as it may from time to time be expended, with the sanction of Her Majesty's Government, for the special advancement of the districts in which it was raised, either by the settlement of emigrants therein, or in other ways, while the interest of this fund, as well as all rents and other land revenue of an annual character, not being instalments of money paid under a system of conditional purchase, would form part of the general revenue and be subject to the vote of the Legislature of Western Australia. Those are the main features of the scheme I suggested to meet the difficulties of the case; and that scheme was practically adopted, and I submit it is a fair solution of the difficulties. Of course, there is no doubt that the land north of the 26th degree of latitude is not so favourable for agriculture, and for the settlement of emigrants, as the land south of that degree, where the climate is more temperate. The prosperity of that northern territory will mainly depend on the goldfields, the pearl fishing, and pastoral, industries; but as regards the land south of the 26th degree, I conceive that it must be put under the control of the responsible Ministers, unless in Western Australia a different system is to be adopted to that which has prevailed in the other Australian Colonies, which I should consider very undesirable. As to the objection that we are shutting ourselves out from a large field of emigration, there is not the slightest reason to fear any change of policy after Responsible Government has been granted. The policy hitherto adopted has been very strongly in favour of obtaining a steady flow of emigration, and in the evidence given a few days ago before a Committee of the other House upon State-aided Colonization, Western Australia is mentioned as one of the four Colonies which are doing the most to promote emigration. It is only about three years ago that new rules and regulations for the management of land were examined and submitted by the Legislative Council and approved by Her Majesty, and the principle upon which they were framed was that Crown lands should not be alienated waste fully and at random, but upon fixed rules of occupation and improvement; and that while it was reasonable that a large field should be reserved for large landowners, a distinct preference should be shown to small owners prepared at once to occupy and cultivate. Those regulations will, in all probability, remain in force in the southern part of the colony, and I do not know how I could improve upon them. Looking again to the precedent of Queensland we may confidently expect a largely increased demand for settlers after Responsible Government has been granted. In Queensland the tide of immigrants rapidly increased after the colony had received that form of Government. I would also add that I think we may expect in Western Australia a larger system of public works by which not only will employment be found for labour, but by the increased facility of communication, a new field will be opened up for settlers, as they will be able more readily to dispose of the produce of their farms. The fourth question is as to the protection of the Aborigines in the north. I cannot doubt that in this matter we have carefully guarded the interests of the natives. The Aborigines Protection Board, created in 1886, is to be continued, and a Bill has been passed by the Colonial Legislature to secure that object, and has been reserved for Her Majesty's assent. The members are to be nominated by the Governor, and the Board is to be placed under the control of the Governor, and not of the responsible Ministers of the day. Moreover a sum of £5,000 is permanently secured by Section 70 of the Reserved Bill for the support of that Board and the benefit of the natives. The money is to be appropriated to the welfare of the natives, and expended in providing them with food and clothing, in promoting the education of aboriginal children, and in assisting generally to promote the preservation and well being of the aborigines. It is to be expended by the Board, under the sole control of the Governor; and if there is any excess in one year it is to be reserved for the use of the Board in subsequent years. I admit that the majority of the Legislative Council, and, perhaps, the public opinion of the country, were against us on this point, and I admit also that the existing Legislative Council, as a rule, have been ready to take a liberal and just view of questions connected with the natives, but Her Majesty's Government adhered to the opinion that it is not unreasonable that a Board should be maintained independent of political circumstances and influences, and independent of that pressure from particular districts and particular persons which experience tells us is likely to be brought to bear on the Ministers of the day. I have, my Lords, at some length, but I hope not undue length considering the great importance of the question, stated the questions which arise upon this measure. I have shown that on constitutional grounds it is desirable that the change of the form of Government should be made, and that the colony has made sufficient progress to justify the change; I have shown that the proposed Constitution is framed on the lines of the Constitutions already granted to the other colonies on the Australian Continent; that sufficient protection is made for the northern territory which in course of time may be separated from the southern part of the colony; that every precaution has been taken to prevent any obstacle being raised to emigration and settlement in the southern part, even assuming, which I do not for one moment assume, that any obstacles will be thrown in the way by the Colonial Government—and upon this point I may refer your Lordships to an additional precaution, to which I forgot to allude, which is taken by Section 8 of the Imperial Bill, and by which it is provided that Acts of the Legislature of Western Australia imposing restrictions on the immigration of British sub- jects shall be reserved for Her Majesty's pleasure—and lastly, I have shown that ample protection is made for the aboriginal natives. I now confidently ask your Lordships to grant a Second Reading to this Bill, which will enable Her Majesty to assent to a measure which I believe will tend very materially to secure the prosperity and welfare of this important colony.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2ª"—(The Lord Knutsford.)

THE EARL OF CARNARVON

The question which this Bill raises is not a new one. When I filled the post which is now occupied by the noble Lord, it was my duty to take a very different view of the subject to that which on this occasion is adopted. My noble Friend stated that in 1874 the Legislative Council of the Colony passed a Resolution in favour of Responsible Government. I considered the question, and it seemed to me that that was a Resolution to be matured in time. I objected to it, and such agitation as there was subsided, and since then the colony has, I believe, advanced in material wealth and in all the conditions that are necessary. Lord Derby in 1883 had to look at the question from a slightly different point of view, but still I apprehend that substantially there was no very wide difference between his view and mine. So matters stood in 1883. Now, in 1889, this Bill comes before us, and the Colonial Secretary is right in saying that the two main questions which the House has to consider are, first of all—is the colony ripe for this great change; and, secondly, is the Constitutional machinery which is adopted in the Bill the right and satisfactory machinery to impose? In many respects the circumstances of the colony seem to me to remain pretty nearly the same as they were in 1874 and 1883. But under this Bill you are going to hand over a tract of territory not so large as was then proposed to a community comparatively very small, and if you give Responsible Government then you must be prepared to give Crown lands with it. I have heard that doctrine sometimes disputed, but I hold it is inevitable that the two should go together. But there is another and more serious question which arises with regard to this change. It is the ques- tion of finance. I have no figures before me of the present revenue and expenditure of the colony, but if I mistake not only two years ago there was a bare surplus of £14,000. That is not a large margin to boast of, and your Lordships will remember that you have now to add the whole of the Governor's salary, and the expenses arising from the creation of two Houses of Parliament, and, above all, the numberless expenses which are incidental to Responsible Government. Deal with it as you will, that expenditure will always grow. The circumstances which exist now are in many respects not far removed from the circumstances which existed in former years, when it was considered necessary to refuse the concession of Responsible Government. What, then, has altered the face of affairs? There are some conditions which have changed. The population when I had to deal with the matter was only 26,000; it is now close upon 40,000. There are coalfields now which have attracted a considerable number of diggers. There is a system of railroads growing up, and there is a certain difficulty of carrying on the Government on the present lines. But, after all, the great reason is perhaps this—that the question has been stirred, and Her Majesty's Government have agreed to carry out this change. A Bill has been introduced, and, like many other questions of a similar nature, when a forward step has been taken there is no practical possibility of return. I agree with my noble Friend in thinking, from all I have heard, that the feeling of the Australian Colonies is in favour of this measure. I do not think, however, that he can flatter himself that there is any great enthusiasm on the point; but still, broadly and on the whole, the general Australian feeling is favourable to any accession of Responsible Government. Therefore, I come to this conclusion, that the responsibility must really rest with Her Majesty's Government to decide when the time has come when responsible institutions should be given to this colony. I hope they have decided wisely in this matter, but if Her Majesty's Government will allow me to give them this one piece of advice, it would be this. Having introduced this measure, it is on every ground expedient that they should pass it this Session. I think the effect there would be very mischievous if by any accident this Bill is now permitted to fall through. It is late in the Session, and it would be unfortunate if any miscarriage took place now. I come now to the second portion of my noble Friend's remarks—the question whether or not this new constitution is carried out in the best possible way? There are one or two points which in frankness I must venture to criticize. On the whole, I admit that the machinery adopted is the right one. It follows in the main the course of the other Australian constitutions, and where it deviates the deviation in many cases is justified by the circumstances. The first point of difference is that power is taken under this Bill for the ultimate separation of the whole of the northern district north of latitude 26 deg. In previous cases no such provision for separation existed. In New South Wales, I think, there was no such provision in the original Act, and it was consequently necessary to introduce it subsequently, and carry it out by other Acts. I think it has been wise, therefore, to make a provision for this purpose. Then I come to the second point. The Bill also gives a power of funding all capital moneys which may be raised from the sale of land in the northern district, holding that capital in fund for the purpose of applying it afterwards to the colony whenever the colony might be constituted. I agree that my noble Friend found himself in a difficulty in dealing with this question. I hope the course that has been adopted will prove successful, but it is impossible not to look at this consideration, that by this arrangement the colonists south of latitude 26 deg. have the administration of the territory whilst they have no power over capital moneys which, under ordinary circumstances, would be raised for capital expenditure. Your Lordships are aware that a very large proportion of the public works in these colonies have been made either with the moneys so raised or in some other form. I do not know whether anything can be done with it at its present stage, but at all events it seems to me that it is somewhat doubtful. Then there comes the further question as to the constitution of the Western Australian Parliament, and I wish to say one word upon this. My noble Friend has described the constitution of the Legislative Council. If I understand him rightly, it is, as he has said, a compromise of principles under which the members of the Legislative Council will be nominated for the first six years, and after that will be elected. Now, there are two very distinct principles that play their part in Colonial Legislative Councils, that of nomination and that of election, and it is rather remarkable that taking the whole of our responsibly governed colonies, the division between nominated and elected Councils is, I believe, exactly equal. In Canada you have the nomination principle, and at the Cape you have that of election. In Australia you have New South Wales, Queensland, and New Zealand, all adhering to the nomination principle; and you have Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania, adhering to the elective principle. I think, myself, there is a great deal to be said for both. I do not think the elective principle in any way detracts from the weight or the power of those Councils. On the contrary, I am rather inclined to adhere to that than to the nomination principle. But, however that may be, those are the two distinct principles, and I think it would be infinitely wiser to adhere to the one or the other rather than to attempt any combination and mixture of the two. There was a proposal made which I am very glad was never carried further. It was a proposal that issued from Downing Street, for the establishment of separate Councils. I must say, that I read that proposal with some dismay. I am very glad that it was withdrawn, and that my noble Friend has frankly thrown it aside. It is, to my mind, a proposal of an extremely democratic nature; it is a proposal that has no precedent whatever, as far as I know, in anyone of our great self-governed colonies. My noble Friend spoke of Ontario, but Ontario is not a colony; Ontario is a province of a great colony, and that which may be perfectly legitimate there, as it was some time ago in New Zealand, affords no precedent or analogy whatever for a great colony. I say, therefore, again distinctly, that there is no precedent whatever in any one of our colonies. It is not commonly adopted in the United States, and if you want to find a precedent for it, you will have to look to some of the small States in Europe. I congratulate my noble Friend on having thrown that aside, and I sincerely trust that no Government hereafter will ever renew such a proposal. I have only to say now that whilst making these criticisms I agree with the Bill as a whole, and I can only urge my noble Friend to press it forward by every means in his power, and to avoid anything like miscarriage daring the present Session. I wish the new colony all possible success. My noble Friend read a paragraph from one of my despatches, and I cannot conclude better than by repeating the sense of that paragraph—that if in any former time I thought it my duty to stand between this part of our Australian Colonies and Responsible Government, it is with no doubt whatever or no distrust of the free institutions which have been granted to the other great communities of Australia. They have been established and have proved their success in a remarkable way, and those who have the fortune with their own eyes to see the marvellous progress, the stability, the good sense, which on the whole have characterized all their proceedings cannot regret that the gift was ever given. May Western Australia only use that gift as well and as worthily! It is the legitimate end to which all the Colonies of England attain, and I know no reason why Western Australia should not be as happy as they. My Lords, as I said in that paragraph, it is a mere question of time, and now that the moment has arrived for extending Responsible Government to Western Australia, no one can wish success to that colony more heartily than I do.

* THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

I wish to add my voice to the general approval which the noble Earl who has just sat down has given to this Bill. He justly said that it must rest with Her Majesty's Government to decide whether the moment has arrived when Responsible Government should be given to this colony. They are far better able to judge than anyone else can be. For my part, I have no doubt they are right in the decision to which they have come. The colony has a larger population than Queensland had when it was placed under Responsible Government; and it has made considerable advances in wealth. The colonists have repeatedly made application to this country to allow them to have this form of Government, and it would have been unwise to have delayed the change further. As regards the particular provisions of this Bill, perhaps the most important is the one which withdraws from the full control of the colony about half the land of the colony—namely, the land above the 26th degree of latitude. On the whole, I think that is a wise provision. You may look forward with certainty to the division hereafter of the colony, and it is far better you should not at this moment hand over the whole of those lands, which will probably at a later period be separated, to the new Responsible Government which you are about to establish. The transition will be much easier when it comes; and I think it will be found that even the finance of the colony will be less complicated than it would have been, supposing that the new Government had exercised the full control over the capital as well as the expenditure of the whole of the land of the colony. With regard to emigration to the colony, which is perhaps the question exciting most interest in this country in connection with this Bill, I cannot help thinking that there is a good deal of misapprehension existing. My noble Friend the Colonial Secretary has just now told us that there is at the present time no indisposition, but the contrary, for emigration to Western Australia. That is perfectly natural. When a colony is young and the population is small there is always a strong desire to promote emigration; but when the population has grown that desire naturally ceases. As the colony gets comparatively filled up with population, that population wishes very naturally to keep the good things to itself as much as possible. In the early stages it is not necessary that you should impose any restriction upon the powers of the colony to deal with the subject, because they are not likely to run counter to your wishes; and in the latter stages if you were to attempt to impose restrictions on the colonists you would find it impossible to enforce them. Take the Colony of Victoria—a colony which now numbers over a million white inhabitants;—does anybody suppose that if you had made a reservation it would have been possible for this country to attempt now to exercise control over that colony with regard to its disposal of Crown lands or with regard to emigration contrary to the wishes of its inhabitants? Practically, therefore, the question solves itself. Lord Carnarvon also touched on the Constitution of the colony, to which I do not think there is any serious objection to be made. I agree with the noble Lord that it is fortunate that the Government gave up the proposal for a single Chamber. Years ago the present Lord Grey was very anxious to introduce a single Chamber system, and it was a subject that I remember involved a prolonged fight in Parliament; and I thought that we had determined against that system, and that, although there may be arguments on both sides, it was our settled policy to adhere to the system of two Chambers, which prevails now in all the colonies properly so called under Responsible Government—for I quite agree that Ontario is a province and not a colony. As to the arrrangement by which the second Chamber is to be elective after a certain period, that, I apprehend, arose from the very natural desire of the noble Lord to come to some compromise between his proposal that the Chamber should be nominated and the elective Chamber, asked for by the colonists. I do not attach any serious importance to that, because the six years will soon pass over, and you will then have an elected Chamber. At the same time, I think it would be better to have an elected Chamber at once, as the colonists clearly thought that a second Chamber would work best. My Lords, I do not think there is much else that I need say upon the subject. I think it is a matter for congratulation that the time has arrived when this part of Australia can be placed on the same footing as the other communities there, as it is, for many reasons, inconvenient that one colony on the Australian Continent should have a different set of institutions from the rest of the Australian Colonies. It is quite true that this handful of people are to be entrusted with an enormous tract of country—for it is enormous, even when the Northern part is subtracted; but, on the other hand, it is fair to remember that the prosperity, such as it is, of this colony, the existence of it as a country growing in civilization and wealth, is the work of the colonists themselves; it is the work of that small handful of people, who had to contend with difficulties in some respects greater than in the other Australian Colonies, and I think you may fairly trust them with the responsibility of developing the resources of what I believe will hereafter become an important part of the British Empire.

* THE EARL OF DERBY

This can hardly be called a Debate, for everyone is of one mind. I should not have added one word to my noble Friend's observations but for this—that when a considerable change is being made, which affects an important colonial community, it is well that those on the spot should understand that the change is made, as it is in the present case, with the unanimous assent and approval of all those who have had to do with colonial affairs. There is no one who has been in any way connected with the Australian colonies who can doubt that responsible Government is the natural destiny in the future of this colony. The question was entirely one of time. If there had been any strong and general feeling six years ago, when I was at the Colonial Office, in favour of Responsible Government for West Australia, I certainly should not have stood in the way; but I felt that it was not the business of the Colonial office to force on the colonists a change which at that time they did not seem to particularly care about. It is quite evident they do care about it now; and it is clear that when once the expectation has been held out to them, and when they have been encouraged to look forward to it, the question is practically settled, because to refuse it at this stage would be madness. Even if there are persons (I certainly am not one of them) who think that this change is premature, you must recollect that that is an objection which, in the nature of things, is only a temporary one. I cannot attach any weight to the question sometimes raised in the Press and elsewhere—"Why are you to put such an enormous unoccupied territory into the hands of a very small number of settlers, not enough to make the population of a considerable town?" The answer to that is that it is the only thing that can be done, and that is the way in which the operation of colonizing has hitherto been carried on. It has been eminently successful so far, and I do not exactly see what is the alternative. I quite agree with what my noble Friend has said that there is no danger that the existing population of Western Australia will be hostile to immigration. When a colony reaches a certain stage of development, when the working classes find they cannot get enough employment, except at a lower rate of wages, and when the country is fairly opened out, there will no doubt grow up a feeling in the colony against unlimited immigration. But at present, and for some time to come, every immigrant who enters Western Australia will be regarded as an addition to the wealth, the resources, and the development of the country; and I do not think that for a long time to come there will be any jealousy on the score of excessive competition. With regard to the reservation of territory to the north of the 26th degree, I have no doubt that that is right from two points of view. In the first place, it meets a feeling which undoubtedly exists here—a feeling of natural reluctance to give up all control over those districts; and, secondly—and this is of far more practical importance—it places matters in a better position for what cannot be far distant—namely, the separation of that northern territory. I think that when that separation takes place, it must include more of the northern coast. I have a very strong opinion that the northern districts of that colony, which is rather absurdly called South Australia, ought not to be, and cannot be, permanently administered from a seat of Government in the south, and that it will be a question for the Colonial Office to decide before long whether the whole of the northern coast of Australia ought not to be divided into separate and self-governing communities. That is one point of importance for the future, and another is that which the Secretary of State has just described as the ultimate federation of the Australian colonies. I cannot conceive anything more important; I cannot conceive any thing more in their interests; and if certain local jealousies which now exist were removed, and if the measure were desired by the colonists, I cannot conceive that there would be any objection I to such a step on the part of the Government or the people of this country. I am afraid there will be some disappointment in the minds of those who look forward to the northern part of the colony as suitable for colonization by labourers from this country. From all I have heard I do not believe that the climate and situation are favourable to such emigration, but no obstacle should be thrown in the way of its being attempted if that is the wish of any one here. There is one point in this Bill which is not to my mind satisfactory, and that is no fault of the Secretary of State or any one else. I refer to the provisions made for the protection of the natives. Perhaps they are as good as they can be; but those people take a sanguine view who think we can give seal protection to the aborigines of Australia by any legislation in this country. In conclusion, I will only say that I believe that no piece of colonial legislation had ever come before Parliament which has the more entire and unanimous support from all parties and sections of English public life.

Motion agreed to; Bill read 2ª accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.