Lords Sitting of 4 July 1889

INDECENT ADVERTISEMENTS BILL. (No. 34.)
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with an Amendment.
TRUST COMPANIES BILL. (No. 10.)
Reported from the Standing Committee for Bills relating to Law, &c., with Amendments: The Report thereof received; and Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
PASSENGERS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. (No. 100.)
Reported from the Standing Committee for General Bills, without Amendment; and re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.
SMALL DEBTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Read 1a, and to be printed. (No. 130.)
MESSAGES FROM THE QUEEN.

  QUESTIONS—OBSERVATIONS.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I wish to ask a question of the noble Marquess of which I have give him private notice. We have all individually learnt the approaching marriage of the Princess Louise, the eldest daughter of the Prince and Princess of Wales, with a Member of your Lordships' House. The intimation has been received with even unusual interest; and I venture to say that in no place is there a warmer sympathy felt with any event
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  likely to increase the happiness and add to the comfort of the Queen and of Her Majesty's Family than in this House. But, strange to say, for the first time on such an occasion, the House of Lords collectively has been entirely ignored, and no sort of official intimation of the happy event has been vouchsafed to us as a body. If I remember rightly, the Duke of Albany's marriage was announced to both Houses in the Queen's Speech, and both Houses had an opportunity in the Debate on the Address and in the Address itself to express their loyal satisfaction. Subsequently a Royal Message was addressed to both Houses on the same day, which referred to the marriage and asked the two Houses to make due provision. On the Duke of Connaught's marriage, Royal Messages announcing the fact and asking for due provision were delivered on the same day to both Houses. The day before yesterday such a Message was given to the House of Commons, and to-day both sides of that Assembly have an opportunity, which has not been afforded to us, of expressing their feelings on this occasion. I believe that the omission is entirely without precedent. If the departure from precedent were intentional, such a want of respect to the Crown and to this branch of the Legislature would require serious consideration on our part. But I am perfectly certain that such is not the case, and that the omission has arisen from regrettable inadvertence, in which case the Prime Minister will probably be glad of an opportunity to make an explanation to that effect.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS: The noble Earl has entirely

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  crushed me with precedent; and I have at once to acknowledge that the precedents are entirely on the side of the noble Earl. There ought to have been an announcement to this House on Tuesday evening. I can only say, as was said on a more important occasion, "some one has blundered." I did not know that the Messages would he sent down to London until I got to Windsor in the middle of the day on Tuesday. As the special train was timed to arrive I should have been in time to bring them before your Lordships. But there is a special providence waiting over special trains, and that special train did not arrive to time. I have to tender my humble apologies to your Lordships for any seeming want of form or respect which was the result of that inadvertence which I regret very much should hate taken place. The Messages are now in the hands of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack.

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN.
Delivered by the Marquess of Salisbury, and read by the Lord Chancellor, as follows:
VICTORIA, R.I.,
Her Majesty, being desirous of making competent provision for the honourable support and maintenance of Her grandson, Prince Albert Victor Christian Edward, relies upon the attachment of the House of Lords to concur in the adoption of such measures as may be suitable to the occasion. V. R. I.
Ordered, that the said Message be taken into consideration to-morrow.

MESSAGE FROM THE QUEEN.
Delivered by the Marquess of Salisbury, and read by the Lord Chancellor, as follows:
VICTORIA, R. I.,
Her Majesty having agreed to a marriage proposed between Her granddaughter, Her Royal Highness Princess Louise Victoria Alexander Dagmar, and the Right Honourable the Earl of Fife, has thought fit to communicate it to the House of Lords.
The numerous proofs which the Queen has received from the House of Lords of their loyalty to the Throne, and of their attachment to Her Person and Family, leave Her Majesty no doubt of their readiness to concur in enabling Her Majesty to make provision for Her Royal Highness. V. R. I.
Ordered, that the said Message be taken into consideration to-morrow.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES BILL. (No. 121.)
House in Committee on recommitment (according to Order).
LORD BALFOUR, in moving the omission of Clause 14, said: The ground on which I move to omit this clause is, that in the Committee an Amendment to the next clause was carried, which will involve demands upon the Treasury, which were not contemplated when the Bill came up to your Lordships' House. I now take this course without again arguing the question on its merits, for the purpose of putting matters into such a position that the other House of Parliament if it choose can re-insert the clause in the form in which it please. It is only under these circumstances and purely upon technical grounds that I ask your Lordships to strike out the clause.
On Question "That the clause stand part of the Bill," resolved in the negative.
THE MARQUESS OF BATHcalled attention to certain words in the schedule to the Bill, which, as he understood, necessitated the examination in London of all the Inspectors under the Act, a course which would involve great inconvenience to Provincial Inspectors.
LORD BALFOUR: If the noble Marquess will put on the Paper the Amendment which he suggests I shall be glad to consider them before taking the subsequent stage of the Bill. I think the noble Marquess is not accurate in his reading of the Bill. I take it that the Board of Trade need not insist upon all the Inspectors coming up to London to be examined. There is nothing in the Bill as to where the examination shall take place, and I assume as a matter of course that they

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will be held at centres convenient to those who desire to undergo the examination.
Other Amendments made; the Report thereof to be received on Monday next, and Bill to be printed as amended, (No. 141.)

ADVANCE NOTES TO SEAMEN BILL. (No. 93.)
House in Committee on Re-commitment (according to order): an Amend. ment made the Report thereof to be received on Monday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 142)

TELEPHONE AND ELECTRIC LIGHT COMPANIES AND OVERHEAD WIRES
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH,in rising to call the attention of the House to the negotiations which are stated to be going on for an amalgamation of the principal telephone companies throughout the kingdom; and to move that the Post Office withhold any consent to the establishment of such a monopoly before a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament shall have considered the general conditions under which the telephone companies at present carry on their business, and the right by which either telephone or electric light companies have been establishing a gigantic public nuisance by the running of overhead wires in all directions across main thoroughfares; and to consider further whether it would not be advisable for the Government to establish a general system of telephonic communication throughout the country in connection with the work of the Post Office, said: My Lords, the subject upon which I have put down a Notice of Motion before this House is one that is not often discussed either in this House or in another place; nevertheless, it is one which is a matter of considerable importance to the country at large, and to many of us who can enjoy the advantages of modern inventions. A notice appeared in the papers some time ago that it was the intention of the principal telephone companies to amalgamate and form one large company for the purpose of carrying on the telephone system of the country generally. The history of the United Telephone Company in this country is a rather curious one, because, as a matter of fact, in the first instance
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when the telephone was introduced, the Government, in exercise of their rights, brought an action to establish the right to the telephone as being part of what was purchased at the time when the telegraph system was taken over, and they were successful in that litigation. The consequence of that was that an arrangement was come to between the Post Office and the Telephone Companies that the Telephone Companies should be allowed to carry on their business upon paying a royalty to the Post Office for the exercise of their rights. That system has gone on for some years. The time is now come when the patents are about to expire, that is to say, in about two years' time the principal patents under which the United Telephone Company carry on their business will become public property, and then there will be power for any company to be formed to establish telephone communication generally. It appears to me, and it has appeared, I think, to a good many people, that the opportunity is one which should not be lost for the Government to consider the attitude they mean to adopt with regard to the telephone. As a matter of fact the purchase which was made of the telegraphs has not proved a very remunerative one. In fact the telegraph was bought too dearly, and it might be supposed that the Government would not be very anxious to purchase the telephone or to encourage the telephone system in this country because it might interfere with the receipts of the telegraph. But such an argument as that is very easily met. It might as well have been said in the old days that railways were objectionable because they would interfere with the stage coaches. As a matter of fact there is no question about it that the telephone will never be a useful invention in this large and important town and throughout the country generally unless the Government are prepared to do something in the matter of taking it up. The Government, in the first place, really have the reversion of this very valuable invention. As it exists at present, the United Telephone Company have established a sort of provisional experimental system throughout London. They have a Central Station to which all the lines are conveyed, and they have, little by little and step by step to

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a certain extent, developed a system, which, though it is not a complete system, is more or less so far as it goes an efficient system. There are, however, immense defects still. Anyone who is in the habit of using the telephone system in London is probably aware that it is very incomplete, and that we are hardly ever able to use it, and that we have to wait a long time before we can get into communication. All this results from the fact that the Telephone Company itself has laboured under very great disadvantages. It has had great difficulty in getting way-leaves. It has had great difficulty in establishing its system and maintaining its lines of communication. In fact, it labours under the disadvantage which every private company must labour under, of not being able to establish a large network of communication without having absolute rights by which it can work. As a matter of fact, I believe that there is no real authority to control the running of overhead wires generally. The parish authorities have not got any locus standi for controlling the companies, nor, I think, has any private individual, unless he can show that his comfort is interfered with, or that his rights as a leaseholder are infringed. The consequence is that, especially in late years, wires have been running in every direction; posts and poles have been put up, and not only have the Telephone Companies run wires, but the Electric Lighting Companies are running wires all over the town and absolutely disfiguring the place, and also increasing the danger to locomotion in the case of storm, or of disturbance by snow and otherwise. Within a stone's throw of this very House there are seven great electric cables running across from the beginning of Victoria Street. This is a condition of things which appears to me, my Lords, to require some consideration. We have, as I say, come to a time when the patents of the United Telephone Company are coming to an end, and when any company will be in a position to form itself for the purpose of establishing a system in competition with that of the United Telephone Company. They will try to get way-leaves and permission from the householders to put up their posts, and we shall have more wires in every direction. What with the tele-
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phone lines and the electric light lines, we shall get into a system of confusion, and dangerous confusion, which will be perfectly intolerable. I really, therefore, think that we should put two propositions before this House. One is that the time has come when the whole system of telephone communication should be considered, and that it, should be considered by a Joint Committee of both Houses, whether the Government will be prepared to take into their hands, on the expiring of the patents, the working of the telephones throughout this large city. It must be remembered that this invention has been so improved that we can now telephone over an area of more than 100 miles; and, therefore, in a small country like England there is no difficulty in connecting the great main towns with one another, and, in fact, we should be enormously advantaged in business and in other ways. Such a system as this should certainly not be in the hands of private individuals. It should certainly not be in the hands of one company, and it would not be advantageous if it was in the hands of many companies. The Government alone is able to undertake this system and develop it and work it properly. It was on such a principle that the Post Office acted with regard to the Parcels Post, and most successful and admirable that arrangement has been. The same applies to this system of telephone communication, and there is no question that if this system were developed by the Government we should profit very largely by it. The second point to which I wish to draw your Lordships' attention is the question of these way-leaves and communications. There is no doubt that during the last few years experimental work has been carried out with the electric lighting system, and also, as I say, with regard to telephone communications, and wires are being run in various directions; and it is difficult to say whether, in the long run, some prescriptive right will not be claimed by these companies on the ground that they have enjoyed the peaceful occupation of these way-leaves for so many years, having established these lines of communication (where they are Electric Lighting Companies) under the Provisional Orders which they have obtained for the purpose of laying down their plan generally. Now, in an old

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town like London, which has got very narrow streets, it is perfectly impossible to lay all the electric light cables and all telegraph and telephone cables underground. In those towns where it has been done in America (and I have seen this myself), the trenches required for carrying all these cables are very large, and there is no doubt that those Electric Light Companies who have got Provisional Orders for lighting districts will be hampered very largely in having to lay their cables underground. I think it is very doubtful whether they will ever be successful in lighting their districts without having overhead wires. Therefore, in considering this question of the telephone, we are brought to consider the question of overhead wires, and in considering the question of overhead wires we have to consider both the Electric Light Companies and the Telephone Companies as well. Now, my Lords, when those Electric Lighting Acts were passed, there was no question ever raised as to how the cables were to be laid. It was assumed that something would be done, and that somehow or other the cables could be laid. But, as a matter of fact, the whole thing has been left to experiment and enterprise. With regard to telephones, the course the companies have adopted is this:—They engage a place where they can put up a post (or what is called a derrick), and they get way-leaves—that is to say, they get the consent of the neighbouring proprietors to the cables starting from those derricks, from these starting points, and then they trust to the chapter of accidents—to householders and freeholders not objecting to the wires crossing their premises afterwards. They have enormous trouble with regard to that. Sometimes they have to run these wires at night in order to be able to get their lines across unnoticed. In other cases where they have several wires running over premises, the owners of the premises have maliciously thrown the cables over and cut the wires altogether. The companies have no means of protecting themselves, because they have really no locus standi in the matter. The same thing applies to the Electric Light Companies. The Electric Light Companies run their cables as best they can. Your Lordships are aware that one of the few Electric Lighting Companies who have
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done real work in London—I mean that which lights the Grosvenor Gallery—are able to run overhead wires in order to supply the current. I must say myself that with the little I know of the subject I do not see how, in a town like London, where you have got such small streets, you are ever going to supply what I should call the subsidiary currents without using overhead wires. Therefore, it seems to me that a very fitting subject for your Lordships' House to consider would be, first of all, the position of the Government with regard to the telephone; and, secondly (which brings in the question of overhead communication), perhaps it would be well for your Lordships to consider what should be the regulation and the rule under which overhead wires should be permitted. There are a few things which suggest themselves with regard to it. As your Lordships are aware, in certain towns where overhead wires are carried to a very large extent great confusion and difficulty has been produced. In New York—and, in fact, in all the towns in America where all the wiring is done overhead—it was customary to run wires wherever people chose, and the consequence was that you had in some places an enormous number of telegraph and electric wires, one pole sometimes carrying 200 or 300 wires on it. When one of the wires was disused, and became what is known as a dead wire, the companies did not take them down, and the consequence was that when another company sent somebody up the pole to mend their wire, the men could not find their own wire, but got hold of the dead wires. Again, accidents occurred; men who went up the poles to attend to a telegraph wire came into contact with the electric lighting wires, and were killed by them. It is absolutely necessary that there should be rules and regulations for the control of those overhead wires, and a few simple considerations suggest themselves. One is that these lines of communication should follow the lines of the streets. Another is that the derricks—that is to say, the supports—should be of a weight calculated to carry the cables which are stretched between them. Another is that the swing of the cables should not be of excessive amount, so as to be dangerous in the case of storms and frosts. Another idea

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is that they should not cross main thoroughfares, except at stated points. This, and various other suggestions, would occur to anybody who has considered the subject as being extremely necessary and extremely important with regard to the question generally. I think that no better means of arriving at a working rule with regard to this matter could he suggested than by the action of a Joint Committee of both Houses. I therefore venture to place before your Lordships the Motion which I have set down on the Paper, which is that Her Majesty's Government should appoint a Committee for the purpose of considering, first of all, the relation between the Government and the Telephone Companies, and the attitude which the Government are prepared to take with regard to working the telephone system as a branch of the Post Office; and, secondly, to consider the whole question of overhead communication by wires, and to recommend rules and regulations, whether they he under the Board of Trade or otherwise, which shall apply to the swinging of wires by the Post Office or by private companies that might be authorized to employ the system.
Moved, That the Post Office withhold any consent to the establishment of a monopoly by the amalgamation of the principal telephone companies before a Joint Committee of both Houses of Parliament shall have considered the general conditions under which those companies at present carry on their business, and the right by which either telephone or electric light companies have been establishing a gigantic public nuisance by the running of overhead wires in all directions across main thoroughfares; and to consider further, whether it would not be advisable for the Government to establish a general system of telephonic communication throughout the country in connection with the work of the Post Office.—(The Duke of Marlborough)
The MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, the question which has been brought before us by the noble Duke is an important one; and, no doubt, the fact that the patents of these companies are likely to expire in a year or two makes it a question on which some definite course must be adopted. I do not think it would be desirable for me to examine the points which are in issue between the Government and the companies, because there are many matters which must be submitted to the Committee; and I should be rather pre-
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judging the case should it be referred to a Committee. I have only to say that the Government have no objection whatever to the inquiry which the noble Duke suggests in reference to the first part of his Motion. I am not sure whether the second part ought to be adopted as a portion of the same inquiry. It seems to me rather to belong to the jurisdiction of those who have power over the overhead lines in our thoroughfares than to the questions which are mixed up with either public communication or electric lighting. But on that I should be glad to hear the further views of the noble Duke. I think, in any case, he will find that the inquiry which he has placed before us in the first branch of his Motion is quite large enough to occupy all the time that can be obtained between this and the Prorogation, and I think for the present it would be better to confine the inquiry entirely to that point. I believe my noble Friend who represents the Board of Trade has something to say in respect to the subject of overhead wires.
LORDBALFOUR: My Lords, I wish to say a few words with regard to the second part of the Motion which the noble Duke has put upon the Paper, and with regard to that part of his speech in which, if I understood him rightly, he said that there were no conditions laid down for the regulation and possible removal of those wires which had been put up by the companies which had undertaken to supply electric lighting in different parts of the Metropolis. I venture to think that it would be extremely desirable in the future discussion of this matter to separate a little more than the noble Duke did the question of telegraph and telephone wires, and wires for the supply of electric light. I would desire to remind the House, and to call the special attention of the noble Duke to the fact, that when the Amending Bill was passing through the Houses of Parliament last year—the Bill to amend the Electric Lighting Act of 1882—special powers were conferred upon the Board of Trade for the regulation of the overhead wires of Electric Lighting Companies. The fourth section of that Act lays several distinct duties upon the Board of Trade, and amongst others the duty of making regulations regarding overhead wires for the supply of electric lighting.

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And, my Lords, I am authorized to tell the noble Duke and the House that those regulations are in an advanced state of preparation, and will, as soon as possible, be communicated to Parliament. My Lords, the Act of last year, to which I have already referred, so far, at any rate, as the Metropolis is concerned, to which a large part of the noble Duke's speech was directed, empowered the Board of Trade to declare to Electric Lighting Companies in the Provisional Orders under which they take power to undertake electric lighting that all overhead wires for the supply of electric lighting are to be removed within a prescribed time, and that is in process of being done as far as possible; preparations at least are being made for having that done at the proper time without undue hardship to the companies. With regard to the special company which the noble Duke mentioned, the company which has its headquarters at the Grosvenor Gallery, the noble Duke is probably aware that that company has purchased a site at Deptford at which they are preparing to conduct very extensive operations, and I believe though I am not absolutely certain on this point, that within a reasonable time it will be possible to make arrangements for the removal, at any rate, of a very large number of the overhead electric wires which are the property of that company. But with regard to telephone wires, the noble Duke is perfectly accurate in saying that the Board of Trade have no authority whatever to deal with them. That matter is, I am bound to say, in a rather unsatisfactory position on account of the decision of the Law Courts in what is known as the Wandsworth case. Up to the time of that decision it was thought by many lawyers that Local Authorities had the same power with regard to the streets that the owner of a freehold has with regard to the land which he possesses. That decision was made the subject of appeal; and upon appeal it was confirmed, so far as the point of it is material to the present discussion. It was to this effect—that the right of property which Local Authorities have with regard to the streets is a right to see that they are not obstructed, and can be properly used for the purpose of traffic; and it would be necessary, before a Local Authority could order the removal of a
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wire which passes through the air above the street, to prove that that wire was so placed as to obstruct the traffic and as to be directly a source of danger to the public. That is not the case with regard to the wires under ordinary circumstances; but that is the state of the law—that the Local Authority is at the present time, so far as the streets are concerned, powerless to prohibit the wires, and can scarcely do more than see that they are placed at a sufficient height not to obstruct the ordinary use of the streets.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: With regard to the remark which fell from the noble Marquess, I quite admit the accuracy of his statement that undoubtedly this subject is a very large one, and that to inquire into the adoption by the Post Office of the telephone system, and also to inquire into the question of overhead wires, would be a very large inquiry. I am fully impressed with that opinion; but the noble Marquess misapprehends me when he thinks that I suggest that the Committee should sit this year. These patents cannot fall in until two years' time.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: One of them expires next year.
The DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: If a Joint Committee of the two Houses sat next year to consider this question they would have time to report to the two Houses of Parliament in time for Her Majesty's Government to introduce what measures they considered right in the matter. With regard to the remarks that fell from the noble Lord on the subject of the rights of Telephone Companies and the Electric Lighting Companies as to the running of overhead wires, it is perfectly true that the provision which was made by the Board of Trade to regulate the running overhead of electric lighting wires had escaped my observation; but I will venture to suggest that notwithstanding the scheme—which will very likely be successful—to light London from some outside part altogether, a great many difficulties will occur with regard to the minor cables. When you have brought up to London your great current of 10,000 volts you have to distribute it into the 2,000 volt currents, and you have to take 2,000 volt currents from a centre into all the different private residences, and

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the difficulties will be great in getting from the 10,000 volt currents to the 2,000 volt currents. These are rather technical matters; but I think that is where the difficulty will occur. With regard to the telephone wires, I was given to understand exactly what the noble Lord states, which is that there are no means of absolutely compelling the Telephone Companies in the matter of running their wires provided they do not infringe the rights of private property holders. I think, my Lords, that that really almost speaks for itself, and shows that it is absolutely necessary that Parliament should deal with these questions. I do not think there is a single town in all civilized Europe which is so behindhand—first of all in its telephone communication; and, secondly, -there is none which has been so absolutely spoiled, and is being so disfigured, by wires running in all directions than London. I therefore think that we can well appeal to Her Majesty's Government to consider this question at some favourable opportunity. I will simply point out that it appears to me that the proper course with regard to it would be that it should meet next year for the purpose of considering the question of the relation of the Government and the Telephone Companies.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I will only say that the noble Duke is quite right in his suggestion that the Committee should meet; but I do not know that it would conduct its investigations with any great advantage during the fag end of the Session which remains. The first patent does expire at the beginning of December of next year; and, therefore, somehow or other, the matter should come to a conclusion before the next Session closes.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH: After what has fallen from the noble Marquess I beg to withdraw the Motion and postpone it to the next Session of Parliament.
Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

COMMISSION OF THE PEACE IN IRELAND.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE, rose to ask Her Majesty's Govern-
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  meat for what reason a gentleman appointed to the Commission of the Peace in Ireland was charged a stamp duty of £6, while in the same circumstances there was no stamp duty charged in Scotland?
  EARL CADOGAN: I am informed that from time immemorial fees have been charged on the issue of the Commissions of the Peace in Ireland, and that these fees have been dealt with by various Acts of Parliament. The £6 at present charged is fixed by the order of the Supreme Court of Judicature, made December 26, 1877, and although popularly called a stamp duty is really a Court fee to be denoted by a Judicature fee fund stamp on the Commission, and payable to Her Majesty's Treasury. The Irish Authorities have no knowledge of the practice in regard to fees on the issue of the Commission of the Peace in Scotland.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: I cannot see that the existence of an evil is any reason why it should not be remedied. The existence of this duty is an evil, and is unfair to people in Ireland.
  The MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Perhaps the best course would be to levy the fee in Scotland.
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE: I am afraid that Scotland would hardly agree with the suggestion of the noble Marquess.
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed: The Lord Fox ford (E. Limerick) chosen Speaker.

COAL DUTIES (LONDON) ABOLITION BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a tomorrow.—(The Lord Balfour.) (No. 143.)
House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, till Tomorrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.