Lords Sitting of 26 August 1889

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:—

Lunacy Acts Amendment.

Merchant Shipping (Tonnage).

Prevention of Cruelty to and Protection of Children.

Factors.

Revenue.

Merchant Shipping Acts Amendment.

Palatine Court of Durham.

County Courts Appeals (Ireland).

Arbitration.

Local Government (Scotland).

General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Act (1862) Amendment.

Official Secrets.

COUNCIL OF INDIA BILL (No. 238.)
  EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL (No. 239.)

    MERCHANT SHIPPING (PILOTAGE) BILL (No. 240.)
    PUBLIC HEALTH (CHOLERA PRETENTION) BILL (No. 241.)
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a tomorrow.

POOR LAW BILL (No. 195.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to, with Amendments.
PAYMASTER GENERAL BILL (No. 208.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendment agreed to.
COURT OF SESSION AND BILL
  CHAMBER (SCOTLAND) CLERKS BILL (No. 152.)
    UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL (No. 204.)
    Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
POST OFFICE SITES BILL (No. 230.)
Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
LIGHT RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL (No. 234)
House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment: An Amendment made; and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.
LEASEHOLDERS (IRELAND) BILL (No. 231.)
House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3a to-morrow.

PREFERENTIAL PAYMENTS IN BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND) BILL (No 236.)
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN): My Lords, in moving that your Lordships should go into Committee on this Bill, perhaps I may be allowed to state to the noble and learned Lord opposite, as I promised that I would let him know, that I find its provisions are identical with those of the English Act of last Session, and that this Bill merely extends the English Act to Ireland.
House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment; to be read 3a to-morrow.

LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) (No. 2) BILL (No. 235.)
House in Committee (according to order).
LORD DENMAN: In the Standing Orders to which I referred your Lordships on Friday last it was declared that no Bill should pass without due consideration, and that the fact of a Bill being brought forward near the end of the Session should form no ground for forcing it on. That Standing Order was passed as long ago as the 5th May, 1668. I think this is the most extraordinarily extravagant Bill I ever read, and I have read every part of it. The powers given to the County Council show that this is, in fact, a supplement to the Local Government Bill of last year. Really the Bill for giving money powers to the County Council is most extraordinary. The additions are, in fact, enormous, and for the County Council to have the power of doling out such sums as these seems to me very extraordinary. I would specially point out to your Lordships the power contained in the 18th clause to raise money on bills up to half-a-million of money. This power is to be exercised solely at the discretion of the Local Government Board and the County Council, with the sanction of the Lords of the Treasury. But there is no limit to the rate of interest which those bills may carry, and it may be heavy, as it is possible they may be very ill-received in the Market. I have read this Bill most carefully, and I consider it a most dangerous measure. I am sure that no amendment could make it a good Bill. From the very first I have depreciated the transfer of powers from Bodies which understand their business to Bodies which are inexperienced, and have great ambition and very large views with regard to the expenditure of money. Under those circumstances, I will not move any Amendment to the Bill, though it is perfectly competent to me to do so, and to another place to accept any Amendment. The Bill did not pass in the House of Commons until 2 o'clock in the morning, and a letter appeared in the Times strongly protesting against
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the hurry with which it was passed Mr. W. H. Lucy, in his description of the House of Lords, wrote that I was the only Peer who thought it a serious part of his duty to attend in the House of Lords. I do not wish to be praised at the expense of others, but I really have attended at great inconvenience, and if I am able to throw light upon any Bill I will do so, notwithstanding all opposition. I must say that though, in several instances, I have been alone in my views, this House and the whole country have come round to them. I am not exaggerating in saying this, and I could specify one thing, though it seems to be rather going out of the record, with regard to the duty of an Assessment Committee. A deputation from Chesterfield met at the Bakewell Union all the Guardians. It was said that rent was to be the basis for every rating. With a clergyman, of Brampton, near Chesterfield, I was the only one who resisted the view that that was the law, and it turned out that it was not. What the land would reasonably let at was the true construction of the Act.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOE FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): I am not prepared to justify, on abstract grounds, all the provisions of this Bill; but it has been the practice for many years for Government to accept Bills from the Metropolitan Board of Works, and to pass them on their responsibility through Parliament; and, in accordance with that precedent, the Government has done so now with regard to this Bill of the London County Council. I am bound to admit, however, that there are inconveniences in the practice; and in future years I think it would be better that the London County Council should bear the responsibility of its own proposals.
House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3a to-morrow.

COTTON CLOTH FACTORIES BILL (No. 227.)
Read 3a (according to order); Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
REGULATION OF RAILWAYS (No. 2.) BILL (No. 229.)
  COINAGE (LIGHT GOLD) BILL (No. 233.)
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.

BRIBERY (PUBLIC BODIES) PREVENTION BILL, formerly BRIBERY (PUBLIC BODIES AND OFFICERS UNDER THE CROWN) PREVENTION BILL (No. 192.)
LORD HERSCHELL: My Lords, this Bill, which passed the other House and came to your Lordships' House, having for its object punishing the giving or accepting bribes for the purpose of influencing the action of members or officers of Public Bodies, was amended in your Lordships' House by applying the same penalties to the bribing, or receiving of bribes by, officers under the Crown. The two cases are strictly analagous, and it seemed open to some objection that such acts with regard to officers and members of Public Bodies should be punishable, while the same acts are not punishable as regards persons holding office under the Crown. However, in the other House of Parliament a different view was taken, and the Amendments were disagreed with, on the ground that the changes so introduced very largely extended the scope and operation of the Bill; and though they might properly, if approved by the House, on full consideration form the subject of future legislation, they could not now receive the discussion which their importance required. Under these circumstances, I do not propose to ask your Lordships to insist upon any of the Amendments, which have the object of extending the scope of this Bill to officers under the Crown, and to acts done in relation tot hem. But there were a number of Amendments made in the Bill with reference to its original scope and purpose, and which are, I think, improvements in it in regard to that scope and purpose, to which the same observation does not apply. I shall, therefore, ask your Lordships to insist upon those Amendments, upon the ground that the reason given by the other House does not appear to have relation to them.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I quite concur with the noble and learned Lord that it would not be
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desirable to insist upon those parts of the Bill which extend it to all officers of the Crown. In fact, the Bill in itself is rather drastic, and will depend for its action upon the interpretation which may be given to the adverb "corruptly," which has not yet received a very large amount of judicial interpretation. I only rise for the purpose of saying that I hope one of the Amendments will be insisted upon, as the noble and learned Lord proposes, in the 7th clause, as it left this House—namely, that the consent of the Attorney General shall be necessary for the purpose of instituting prosecutions under this Act. I think that is a very necessary precaution, particularly in cases where injury might be done to people's characters, sufficient ground being shown for a prosecution.
LORD HERSCHELL: I am quite prepared to accept that. Certainly I have no objection to it; but I may say that I have conferred with those who have had to deal with the Bill in the other House, and I understand that considerable objection was taken to that provision.
THE MAEQUESS OF SALISBURY: I have had some communication with the Leader of the other House on the subject, and he offered no objection.
LORD HERSCHELL: I do not doubt that if the Government support it in the other House the matter will go through if we insist upon it. I should not like the Bill to be endangered.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: No. I understand that the Attorney General rather demurred originally to the insertion of that clause in the Bill without his having been consulted; but I do not think there is any objection on the ground of policy.
Commons reason for disagreeing to the Lords Amendments considered (according to order): Some of the Amendments to which the Commons have disagreed, not insisted on; others insisted on; and a Committee appointed to prepare reasons for the Lords insisting on certain of their Amendments: The Committee to meet forthwith.

POOR LAW BILL (No. 195.)
Commons Amendments to Lords Amendments to be considered to-morrow.

BRIBERY (PUBLIC BODIES) PREVENTION BILL, formerly BRIBERY (PUBLIC BODIES AND OFFICERS UNDER THE CROWN) PREVENTION BILL (No. 192.)
Report from the Committee of the reason to be offered to the Commons for the Lords insisting on certain of their Amendments; read, and agreed to; and a Message sent to the Commons to return the Bill with the Amendments and reason.
House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.