Lords Sitting of 22 August 1889

LEASEHOLDERS (IRELAND) BILL (No. 231.)
  LIGHT RAILWAYS (IRELAND) BILL (No. 234.)

    LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) (No. 2) BILL (No. 235.)
    PREFERENTIAL PAYMENTS IN BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND) BILL (No. 236.)
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a tomorrow.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL (No. 179.)
Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to, with Amendments.
Commons' Amendments to Lords' Amendments considered.
Moved, "That this House doth agree with the Commons' Amendments."
LORD DENMAN: The Amendments of the House of Commons do not in any way improve this Bill. Persons who have filled their offices for many years and know their duties are now to be subjected, first, to an election, and then to apply to the Treasury for compensation. My experience of what takes place in England upon the occasion of elections makes me anxious to relieve Scotland from the burden which this new election will entail. As an hereditary Councillor of the Crown I would humbly advise
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Her Majesty to refuse her assent to such a Bill as this.
On Question, resolved in the affirmative.

POST OFFICE SITES BILL (No. 230.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Lord KNUTSFORD): By the Prisons Act of 1877, when a prison was discontinued it was provided that it should be offered to the Justices of the Peace, then the County Authority, and that in case of their declining to take it at the price that was fixed by the Act (which was based upon the number of cells then in occupation), it should be put up for sale by the Secretary of State. The Coldbath Fields Prison was discontinued in 1885. It was offered by the Secretary of State to the Justices at a price based on the principle sanctioned by the Act of Parliament, which amounted to about £186,000, and the Justices declined to take it. About that time the Royal Commission on the Housing of the Poor recommended in their Report that the sites of certain prisons, including the Coldbath Fields Prison, should be offered to the Metropolitan Board of Works at a price under the market price, with a view to artisans' dwellings being erected. Mr. Childers, then Secretary of State, in accordance with that recommendation of the Royal Commission, offered this site to the Metropolitan Board of Works at a price less than the market price, which was to be settled by arbitration; but the Metropolitan Board of Works thought that there was at that time in the locality a sufficient provision of

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  artisans' dwellings, and they, therefore, declined the offer. The Secretary of State then endeavoured to get a price offered for this site, but the highest offer that could he obtained was £100,000. About that time the Post Office entered into negotiation with the Treasury for the transfer of, at first part, and then the whole, of this site. It was of very great importance to them to get the site, and a very great advantage to the taxpayers, because the Post Office would then be able to move certain Departments which were very expensively housed elsewhere; and it was also a most convenient site because of its proximity to three stations of great lines of railway running from London. Negotiations went on; the Justices of Middlesex made no opposition, and, finally, the Post Office were placed in possession of this site in the year 1888. A question then arose whether the title of the Post Office was good, inasmuch as it could not be said strictly that the Secretary of State had sold the site in accordance with the provisions of the Act of 1877. Therefore this Bill was introduced to remove that doubt, and also to confirm an arrangement which was made as to the closing of a right of way. The Bill was introduced into the House of Commons, and was referred to a hybrid Committee. It was at first opposed by the County Council on the ground that it was an opportunity which should not be lost of providing a public open space for this crowded part of the Metropolis; but a compromise was arrived at which was embodied in Sections 4 and 5 of the Bill. I now ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this measure.
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed forthwith.

GENERAL POLICE AND IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT (1862) AMENDMENT BILL (No. 228)
House in Committee (according to order); Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3a to-morrow.
COTTON CLOTH FACTORIES BILL (No. 227.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount Cross): My Lords,
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  this is a purely sanitary measure. It is for the purpose of regulating the amount of steam that may be introduced into the sheds, so as not to oppress the people who are working there. The fact is that the steam, if the room is not at a proper temperature, condenses upon the workpeople and does them great injury. The object of this Bill is to regulate the heat as compared with the amount of steam which may be admitted. It is a Bill which has been very carefully considered elsewhere, and it has been entirely agreed upon between the operatives and workmen engaged in this class of business and their employers. As an excellent sanitary measure and a very useful piece of legislation, I ask your Lordships to give it a Second Reading.
  Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.

REGULATION OF RAILWAYS (No. 2) BILL (No. 229.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  LORD BALFOUR: I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill. There is also on the Paper a notice to the effect that I propose to ask the House to suspend the Standing Orders for the purpose of the consideration of the Bill. That notice was given at a time when it was thought possible that it might be necessary ask the House to take that step, but I am glad to be able to inform your Lordships that I do not intend to make that Motion to-day. If your Lordships read the Bill a second time, I propose that the Committee stage should be taken tomorrow. The Bill itself is a very simple one, and one which I think will command the general assent of your Lordships. Its provisions are mostly matters of detail. By the first clause it is proposed to give the Board of Trade power to make Orders, obliging the Railway Companies when called upon to introduce on passenger lines what is known as the block system; also to make a better provision for the interlocking of points and signals where those mechanical contrivances are at present defective; and thirdly (and I think this is the most important provision), to compel the in-

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  troduction and the constant use of efficient brake power. A very large number of vehicles which are used for passenger traffic are now fitted with continuous brakes, but it is found that some companies are backward in introducing these necessary appliances, and it is thought right that further pressure should be put upon them to take that step. The conditions which it is proposed to enforce are laid down, in one of the sub-sections to the first clause of the Bill. It is not the intention, of the Board of Trade, and I am sure it would not be thought right by Parliament, to prescribe by name any particular brake, but there are several brakes in existence and in regular working on some railways which comply with all the conditions in the Bill. These are five in number—that the brake must be instantaneous in action, must be self-applying in the event of any failure in the continuity of its mechanism, must be capable of being applied to every vehicle of the train, must be in regular daily use, and of such material as to be durable and easily kept in order. Those conditions are thought to be necessary, and it is the intention of the Board of Trade that any brake which complies with them shall be regarded as sufficient for the purpose. The second clause of the Bill provides for proceedings in case of a company making default in obedience to the Orders. The third clause provides a method of meeting any expense to which the companies may be put in complying with the Orders. The fourth clause provides for certain Returns being given to the Board of Trade by the companies as to the overtime of the servants in their employ—a matter in which the noble Earl behind me (Earl De la Warr) takes great interest. The fifth clause strengthens the regulations for the production and delivery of tickets upon demand by railway employés. The sixth clause accomplishes a very simple, but I venture to think, a very useful, reform, by providing that the Board of Trade may order (after allowing a certain time for the Railway Companies to work off the existing tickets) that each ticket shall have its price legibly printed upon its face. That is really the whole of the Bill, and I now ask your Lordships to read it a second time.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY: I do not rise in any way to oppose this measure,
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  which I think is an admirable on e in many ways; but I think the attention of the House ought to be directed to Clause 3, which empowers a Railway Company executing any of the works ordered to issue debentures or debenture stock in priority to or ranking pari passu with existing debentures. This is a very strong, and. possibly a necessary power; but, in the first place, it would enable Railway Companies to exceed their normal borrowing powers, and in the next place it would enable them to create debentures or debenture stock having priority over existing debentures. I assume that the justification for this is the paramount requirements of public safety. I am quite aware that the amount of capital that is to be so raised is to be fixed by the Board of Trade, and with these guarantees that it will not be improperly raised—and I presume that it will only be raised in the case of extremely poor and small railways—I shall offer no opposition to that portion of the Bill, though I thought it was right to call the attention of the House to it.
  Bill read 2a (according to order): Then Order of the Day for the consideration of Standing Orders Nos. XXXIX. and XLV. read, and discharged; Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow; and Standing Order No. XXXIX. to be considered in order to its being dispensed with.

COINAGE (LIGHT GOLD) BILL (No 233.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."
  LORD DENMAN: I am extremely glad that the holders of light sovereigns are not to suffer, but that they are to be indemnified under this Bill. I venture to think that there is at the present time one of the best opportunities for increasing the circulation in the country by the restoration of £l notes, and, if possible, by such small notes as the $1 and $3 notes in Prussia, which were always preferred to silver, and were really of the greatest possible convenience. This would prevent people

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  being in such a violent hurry to return their half-sovereigns to the Mint. I earnestly hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to whom I am indebted for very great courtesy, may take this into consideration, so as to be able to relieve persons from the want of small change.
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.

POST OFFICE SITES BILL (No. 230.)
Reported without Amendment, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House to-morrow.
House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.