Lords Sitting of 9 August 1889

SUCK DRAINAGE BILL. [PRIVATE BILL.]
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and referred to the Examiners.
ZULULAND—NATIVE CHIEFS.

  QUESTIONS.—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD HERSCHELL: On behalf of my noble Friend the Earl of Aberdeen I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the evidence in the case of Dinizulu and other Zulu Chiefs recently tried by a Special Commission has been received by Her Majesty's Government?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Lord KNUTSFORD): The evidence in the cases of Dinuzulu, Undabuko, and Tshingana, has only just reached this country. It is now in course of revision, and will be sent to the printer as soon as possible; but some time must elapse before the printing can be completed, as the evidence is very voluminous. The evidence in the cases of Somhlolo and other Zulu Chiefs has already been placed in the Libraries of both Houses of Parliament. I need hardly add that when this evidence has been printed it will receive the very careful consideration of Her Majesty's Government.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. (No. 191.)
  House in Committee (on Re-commitment) (according to Order): Bill reported without Amendment; and to be read 3 on Monday next.
  FACTORS BILL. (No. 122)
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to, with Amendments; and Bill, with the Amendments, returned to the Commons.
  JUDICIAL FACTORS (SCOTLAND) BILL. (No. 202.)
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (WALES) BILL. (No. 201.)
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL. (No. 179.)
  Read 3a (according to order) with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL. (No. 204.)
  Amendments reported (according to order).
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: With reference to what fell last night from two noble Lords who sit on the opposite side of the House, who are not present this afternoon, as to the position of the Provost of Dundee on the University Court, I may say that I have gone into the matter as I promised I would, and have come to the conclusion that I should adhere to the position which I have all along taken. It is exceedingly desirable that the University College of Dundee should be affiliated to the University of St. Andrews at the earliest possible moment, and the effect of the Provost of Dundee, the Chief Magistrate

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  of that town, being on the University Court of that University, would be very beneficial in leading to that result. I only make this statement because I stated last night that I would consider the matter before Report. Then, it will be remembered that the noble Lord (Lord Camperdown) moved an Amendment last night, which I also said I would consider. The noble Lord is not now present, but I am glad to be able to accept the Amendment which he proposed.
  Amendment proposed, in Clause 8 page 8, line 21, to leave out the words "University Court," and insert the word "Commissioner" instead thereof. Agreed to.
  Other Amendments made; Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.

  PRINCE OF WALES'S CHILDREN BILL. (No. 212.)
  Read 3a (according to order), and passed.

PREVENTION OF CRUELTY TO AND PROTECTION OF CHILDREN BILL, formerly CRUELTY TO CHILDREN PREVENTION BILL. (No. 160.)
Read 3a (according to order).
LORD HERSCHELL: On Clause 3 I have to move an Amendment which I mentioned yesterday, which I think will be an improvement in the licensing provision. At present that provision enables the Court to order that the child be permitted to be employed at an entertainment, or series of entertainments. I propose that instead of its being done in that form, it should be done by a license, and that that license may be granted for such time and during such hours of the day and subject to such restrictions and conditions as the Court may think fit. It does not compel the Court to impose any conditions whatever. They may give the license without any conditions. I think it advantageous that they should have power to impose conditions if they so think fit. I am led to think so by the course which has been pursued at Glasgow, which, I believe, has been extremely successful.
Amendment moved, in line 42, to leave out "order that," and insert "grant a license for such time and during such hours of the day and subject
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to such restrictions and conditions as it may think fit for."—Agreed to.
Consequential Amendments agreed to.
LORD HERSCHELL: The next Amendment I have to propose is to enable an Inspector under the Factory and Workshop Act to deal with these licenses in the way in which he deals with cases under that Act. In cases under the Factory Act the Inspector has power to see that the license is complied with and that the conditions are fulfilled, and I propose that the Secretary of State may assign to any Inspector appointed under the Factory Act the duty of seeing that the conditions of licenses under this Bill are complied with, and may also give the Inspector power to inspect premises and so forth.
Amendment moved, at end of Clause 3, to add—
"A Secretary of State may assign to any Inspector appointed, or to be appointed under Section 67 of the Factory and Workshops Act, 1878, specially and in addition to any other usual duties, the duty of seeing whether the restrictions and conditions of any license under the last preceding section are duly complied with, and any such Inspector shall have the sums power to enter, inspect, and examine any place of public entertainment at which the employment of a child under the provisions of such clause is licensed for the time being, as an Inspector has to enter, inspect, and examine a factory or workshop under Section 68 of the same Act."—(The Lord Herschell.)
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS): I may mention that this Amendment entirely carries out the views of the Grand Committee which sat upon this Bill, and also the recommendations of the Royal Commission on Education which wore especially directed to this point.
Amendment agreed to.
LORD HERSCHELL: Under the Elementary Education Act of 1876, and the Education (Scotland) Act of 1878, a child under 10 is not allowed to be employed except under certain conditions and restrictions. It might possibly be open to contention that a license under this Act exempted from the necessity of complying with those conditions as well as fulfilling the conditions of this particular enactment. Of course that is not intended, and in order to avoid any such point I have put on the Paper this Amendment.
Amendment moved, after the foregoing Amendment, to add the words—
"Nothing in this section contained shall affect the provisions of the Education (England) Act, 1876, or the Education (Scotland) Act, 1878."—(The Lord Herschell.)
Amendment agreed to.
LORD HERSCHELL: My next Amendment I move in fulfilment of the promise that I gave when this Proviso as to the employment of children under 10 was considered in Committee—namely, that a short time should be allowed before that part of the Act came into operation.
Amendment moved, after the foregoing Amendment, to insert the words—
"So much of Sub-section (c) of this section as makes it an offence to cause or procure a child to be in premises licensed according to law for public entertainment, or in any circus or other place of public amusement for the purpose of singing, playing, or performing for profit, shall not come into operation until the 1st day of November, 1889."—(The Lord Herschell.)
Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons, to be printed as amended (No. 223.)
House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, to Monday next, Three o'clock.