LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL. (No. 179.) (Hansard, 8 August 1889)

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN
With reference to Clause 82, upon which there was some discussion, I have to say that I have no proposal to offer. I do not know whether the House will accept the Clause as it stands.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL
I regret that Her Majesty's Government have not thought it desirable to modify the form of this Clause. The words are very large and very arbitrary. It would appear that, in many of the Scotch counties, it would make the Valuator the servant of the Treasury and not of the county. That, I think, would be a serious inconvenience. Though I have every confidence in the Treasury as at present represented, I think, in such a matter as this, we must look to the future, especially in a Bill to give Local Government and local powers. It seems to me inconsistent with the principle of this Bill that you should make one of the principal officers of the Council the servant of the Treasury.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
When this matter was brought forward the other night, the noble duke stated that in the House of Commons the Clause had slipped in without much consideration. The matter is one concerning Scotland and concerning the Treasury, and on both those grounds I feel that I am not very competent to deal with it. These Clauses were dealt with and adjusted after full consideration by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Lord Advocate, and the 723 permanent officials concerned. So that, at all events, this Clause has been adjusted with full knowledge of all the circumstances: and it seems to me if there is anything too rigid or severe in the Clause, the County Councils can protect themselves by not employing officers of this kind.

* THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
My Lords, before we leave this Bill, I would mention one matter which the noble Marquess proposed to take into consideration the other night, but with regard to which he has said nothing, and nothing has been done. I moved an Amendment on behalf of Lord Aberdeen with reference to the stereotyped rate on the owners. I put to the noble Marquess several points; he admitted there was some force in them, and he undertook to consider this matter before the Report.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN
It is quite true I did undertake to consider this question again before the report, but I said at the same time that I could not undertake to consider it favourably. I am afraid I cannot go back from what I said then, and I consider it undesirable to accept the amendment. This measure is based by the Government upon an intelligible principle: that is to say, that works which had been paid for out of annual rates are not to be left out of consideration in, fixing the basis of the rate on the average of the last ten years. The noble Lord will himself see that it would be very difficult otherwise for the Sheriffs to see on what basis they are to proceed in dealing with capital account for the purpose of fixing the stereotyped, rate. Of course the capital account may include very large and very small works, and, it would be very difficult for the Sheriff, to decide what ought to be placed in the annual rate for the county, and what in his judgment ought to be spread over a term of years and paid for with borrowed money. I think the Sheriffs would, be in a difficult position, and it would be almost impossible for them to ascertain the basis they should take in fixing the stereotyped amount. The proposal of the Government in this Bill is that only works paid for with borrowed money shall be exempted from calculation for the stereotyped rate. That proposal is based upon a broad and intelligible principle, and I think that 724 any other would create difficulty in the amount being fixed by the Sheriff.

* THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
The argument now used by the noble Marquess is precisely the same as he used the other night, and which, after a great deal of discussion, he was obliged to admit was not a very strong one. I am afraid the course he has adopted will oblige me to take the equally objectionable course of repeating one or two of the observations I made the other night. I beg leave to say in answer to the noble Marquess when he says that the good in this measure lays down a broad and intelligible principle, that it does neither the one nor the other. No such principle in rating was ever heard of before, and if it could have been conceived possible that any such principle would have been adopted, no county would ever have thought of paying for public works by rate instead of by the ordinary course of borrowing. This proposal of the noble Marquess, if he insists upon it, will undoubtedly, as Lord Aberdeen considered in bringing forward his amendment, inflict considerable hardship in more than one county in Scotland. As I understand, the noble Marquess challenges me to explain the possibility of the Sheriff being able to calculate how much of a certain sum which has been expended as capital ought to be apportioned to each year. Is not this a very simple way? Suppose the question is with regard to Some county building which has involved an outlay of £4,000 or, £5,000 paid by rate levied instead of by borrowing in the ordinary way. The noble Marquess knows just as well as I do the ordinary terms of borrowing for such purposes; it might be fixed at 20 years or 30 years, or at any other term-which might on consideration seem advisable to the Sheriff. What could be more easy than adding the amount so arrived at to the stereotyped rate? I cannot understand how there could be any difficulty whatever. As the matter stands there will be great hardship inflicted on more than one county. The noble Marquess was the other night obliged to admit that his argument was a weak one, and he said he would reconsider the matter. Of course one cannot in any way bind the Government to say they will introduce 725 an amendment; but still when one hears of reconsideration one hopes for something in that direction. To admit on one night that one's argument is barren and to say that the matter will be reconsidered, and then to simply repeat that argument to the House on another night, is not a course which is very gratifying to those proposing an amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN
I must deny altogether that I said my argument was either a bad or a weak one. When I said I would consider the matter again, it was only after pressure had been pat upon me. In deference to the wish expressed by noble Lords on either side of the House I said I would do so, but I expressly said that I could not promise to consider it favourably. The noble Lord has not grappled with one of the main difficulties. He has taken a particular instance of county buildings, and he said, as I understood, that the expenditure upon that one place might be easily dealt with by the Sheriffs spreading it over the ten years. I admit there would not be much difficulty if one had only to deal with one class of expenditure; but, as I stated just now, there are many other kinds of expenditure which would come under this head. No doubt many counties would like to put a large amount of their expenditure under it. Questions with reference to reformatories, police stations, and others of that kind had been raised, and if once the proposition of the noble. Lord is admitted, similar questions will be raised by others. The question at once arises, How low down in the scale of expenditure is the Sheriff to go in fixing the capital expenditure of the county. I have already said that the whole proposal of the Bill is based upon a broad and intelligible principle, and upon that ground I must decline to accept the noble Lord's suggestion.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL
I think it would not be impossible to meet the difficulty in some cases of expenditure out of capital; but I am bound to say that I attach very little importance to this point, and I do so because in my opinion the whole of these rates fall really on owners and not on occupants. It has been the custom in Scotland to make most of the rates payable half by the owner and half by the occupant; but, 726 under the present system of letting, the whole must ultimately fall on the owners. The rates levied during existing contracts will fall upon the occupants. I approve of the system of half-rates upon owners and occupiers, and if it prevailed in England I think it would convince a good many persons who entertain rather curious views upon these matters, for ultimately the whole of these rates come out of the rent.