Lords Sitting of 1 August 1889

EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (SCOTLAND).
THE DUKE OF ARGYLL,in presenting a Petition for an Address to Her Majesty, praying her to withhold her consent from Scheme No. 201 of the Educational Endowments (Scotland) Commission, said: My Lords, I have a Petition to present from the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland upon the subject of a Provisional Order of the Endowed Schools Commissioners, with the authority of the Moderator, representing the Assembly, which they consider injurious to the interests of the Church of Scotland. Under the Endowed School Commission they have the power of issuing regulations in regard to all endowments connected with education. The endowments dealt with in this Provisional Order, being those
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belonging to the Society for Propagating Christian Knowledge, date from as far back as 1709, and a considerable sum of money is given into the charge of the Church of Scotland for the promotion of education and religion in Scotland, especially in the Highlands and Islands. My Lords, I can testify that a great deal of public good has been done for many years by these endowments. They have been employed for religious and educational purposes in some of the very poorest parishes in the Highlands and Islands. The Commissioners now propose that a considerable part of this money should be given into the charge of a new body for the purpose of education alone, and a much smaller share left in the charge of the Society for the Propagation of Christian Knowledge for religious purposes, of which I had the honour of being President for many years. Having inquired into the circumstance under which this Provisional Order has been issued, I can only say that while sympathising very much with the feeling of the General Assembly expressed in this

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Petition, yet, having looked into all the circumstances as far as I can, and looking at the position of the various religious bodies in Scotland which is very different now from what it was when the endowments were given, I am not prepared to ask the House to interfere with the Provisional Order of the Commissioners.
Petition read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILLS.
LORD BALFOUR,in rising to move that the Order made on the 5th day of March last,
"That no Bill brought from the House of Commons confirming any Provisional Order or Provisional Certificate shall be read a second time after Friday, the 28th of June next,"
be dispensed with, in order to enable a number of Electric Lighting Provisional Orders Bills to be read 2a said: My Lords, the House will require a word or two of explanation from me in making the Motion which stands in my name. I am glad to be able to say that it is the last time, as far as I know this Session, that I shall have to appeal for any suspension of the Sessional Orders. The circumstances under which it is necessary in this case are as follow:—Your Lordships are aware that last year an Act was passed amending the conditions under which Provisional Orders could be granted for the supply of the electric light throughout the country; and the consequence of that has been that a very large number of applications have been made, and those which are before the House are the first of the applications under the Act of last year. In consequence of the circumstances, a very great deal of discussion had to take place with the various Local Authorities concerned. The first of these Bills concerns Local Authorities in the country, and I believe the Orders confirmed by it are absolutely unopposed. With regard to the other Orders, which concern the Metropolis as well as the private Bill which has been just now moved on behalf of the Chairman of Committees, a very great deal of discussion also took place, and so important were the issues involved to the people of the Metropolis that the Board of Trade thought it necessary to have a special inquiry.
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That inquiry extended over 18 days, before Major Marindin, one of the officials of the Board, and a Report was made upon the whole subject. Even subsequently to that Report, a very great deal of discussion and negotiation had to be gone through; so much, indeed, that the Bills confirming the Orders could not be presented to the other House in accordance with the Sessional Orders. But the other House suspended the Sessional Orders, and referred the Bill to a strong Committee, presided over by Sir George Trevelyan. The result was that, on every material point, the decision of Major Marindin was confirmed. The appeal I now make to your Lordships is that you will not allow this very large amount of discussion and expense to be wasted, but that you will suspend the Sessional Order and allow the Bills to be read a second time. I therefore beg to move accordingly.
The Resolution was agreed to, and the said Bill read 2a accordingly.

LUNACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL (No. 9.)
Returned from the Commons agreed to, with amendments: The said amendments to be printed. (No. 199.)
CANADA (ONTARIO BOUNDARY) BILL (No. 151.)
  PASSENGERS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. (No. 100.)
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
BOARD OF AGRICULTURE BILL (No. 125.)
Returned from the Commons with the amendments agreed to.
CRUELTY TO CHILDREN PREVENTION BILL (No. 160.)
Reported from the Standing Committee for Bills relating to Law, &c, with amendments: The Report thereof received; and Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

COURT OF SESSION AND BILL CHAMBER (SCOTLAND) CLERKS BILL (No. 152.)
Reported from the Standing Committee for Bills relating to Law, &c,

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with amendments: The Report thereof received; and Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (WALES) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday next.—(The Lord President, V. Cranbrook). (No. 201.)
JUDICIAL FACTORS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Monday next.—(The Lord Ker, M. Lothian). (No. 202.)
SETTLED LAND ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a to-morrow.—(The Lord Macnaghten). (No. 203.)
UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday next.—(The Lord Ker, M. Lothian). (No. 204.)

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL. (No. 179.)
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN): My Lords, in rising to ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill I cannot but express my regret that it has not been in my power to introduce the measure to your Lordships' House at an earlier period of the Session, altering as it does the whole condition of the County Government of Scotland. I should have been glad if it had been in my power to bring a Bill of this nature before your Lordships at a period of the Session in which you could have given a more adequate consideration to it. From the condition of the Benches of the House I am glad to see that confidence is felt in Her Majesty's Government, because it would appear from the number of noble Lords present that there must be a general conviction that the Bill is a good one, and that there is no desire to go very much into the details of it at this stage.
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But I should have preferred that those noble Lords who are connected with Scotland should have been present in greater numbers to go somewhat into the details of the measure. I need not enlarge upon the principle of this Bill, because it is one to which your Lordships have already given your assent by the passing of the Local Government Bill for England last year. The Bill now before your Lordships' House simply gives effect as regards Scotland to the principles which your Lordships' House then accepted. But the circumstances of Local Government in Scotland, are so different from those which prevail in England, or which prevailed in England before the passing of the Bill of last year, that the Bill which I now place before the House necessarily differs in very important particulars from the Bill passed with regard to England last year. In some degree those differences make it more difficult to frame a measure which is to be applicable to the whole country than was the case in England, for I do not think the condition of things in England as regards the most distant parts of the country from one end to the other vary so greatly as they do between the more thickly populated and prosperous parts of Scotland in the south, southeast, south-west, and north-east, and the isolated, more thinly populated and often poverty-stricken districts of the north and north-west of Scotland. I must ask your Lordships to bear with me while I endeavour as shortly as I can to go into the details of the Bill, touching only on the more important points now, asking you to reserve the consideration of the details more particularly for a later stage when the Bill comes into Committee. But before going into the details of the Bill I think it would be convenient that I should shortly describe the existing condition of the administration and of the administrative bodies, for without that it would be difficult to explain to your Lordships what it is that is now proposed to be transferred from the existing bodies to the new County Councils. The first and most important body which now exists in the County Government of Scotland is that which is called the Commissioners of Supply. They are the chief County Authority. The Commissioners of Supply are composed of owners of land

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of the annual value of £100, and the owners of houses of the annual value of £200. They have a chairman elected from among their own body, who is called a convener. I allude to the name of the convener simply because it is proposed that the Chairman of the new County Councils should be called by that name. Their especial powers have reference to the police administration, to the valuation of lands and heritages, the preparation of the valuation rolls, the preparation through their assessor of the Parliamentary Register, the provision of lunacy accommodation through the District Boards, and general county business, including the payment of clerks, supply, and all other officials. As I have said, this body is composed almost entirely of owners of property; they have practically the whole administration in regard to all the points which I have just named to your Lordships. The occupiers have no voice in the government of the county at all, but on the other hand the occupiers have no responsibilities in respect of the Government of the County, because the owners pay the entire amount of the rates which can be levied under the authority of the Commissioners of Supply. Therefore, while the owners have the entire administrative power in the county, yet, as they pay the whole of the rates levied under their authority, the principle of representation and taxation is carried out in that instance. It is not, as your Lordships see, in any way infringed by the system of administration and County Government at present existing in the counties of Scotland. Under the proposals of the Government in this Bill, the whole of the powers and duties now exercised by the Commissioners of Supply will be transferred to the new County Councils. Then, the second administrative body in the counties of Scotland to which I will refer, is the County Road Trustees. These bodies were called into existence by the County Roads Act, 1878, and they consist of all the Commissioners of Supply, and of two or more, but not more than four, representatives of the ratepayers in each parish, who are elected triennially. They manage and maintain all the highways, there being no distinction under the Act
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of 1878 between main and other roads. They impose all road rates, which, at their option, may be imposed on several parishes or on the parishes separately. But under these bodies elected triennially as regards the representatives of the ratepayers there are what are called the Road Boards. They are nominated annually by the general body of the Road Trustees, and they practically undertake the management of the roads in the counties. A county is, generally speaking, divided into several districts, and each district is under the charge of the General Committee, which is annually appointed. But, my Lords, the incidence of the rates levied under the Roads Act is not to be quite these me as it is under the authority of the Commissioners of Supply. The owners and occupiers pay each half the rates for the repairs of the roads, but upon the owners alone fall all the rates for payment of the debts which have been incurred and for any new work. Therefore the owners pay the larger proportion of the rates which are annually required for the maintenance and keeping up of the roads. The whole of the powers exercised by these bodies will be transferred under this Act to the County Council. The third class of adminitrative bodies in the counties dealt with under this Act is the Local Authority in each county administering the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts. These bodies consist half of occupiers, and half of ratepayers or owners. They vary in number from 8 to 30 in different counties, but in all cases as I have said they are half occupiers and half owners. The rates in this case are divided nominally half and half— that is, they are nominally paid half by the owners, and half by the occupiers. But the rate is levied first entirely on the owner, and he can recover from the occupier if he chooses to enforce it. But I believe it is very seldom found that the owners have enforced that rate; therefore, practically the owner has been in the habit of paying the rates levied under the Contagious Diseases(Animals) Acts. Generally speaking these Local Authorities adminster the law with regard to cattle diseases, and put into force Orders in Council with regard to them. As to the rates, they issue a requisition

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to the Commissioners of Supply, who rate according to that requisition. Then the only other administrative Authority in the counties which I need refer to is the body of Justices of the Peace. In England those authorities are a very important body, and they have very important functions to perform; but in Scotland their adminstrative powers are small. Under this Bill the whole of their powers will not be transfered; only their adminstrative powers will be transferred to the County Councils, and not those with regard to the granting of licenses. The most important duty which now falls on the Justices of the Peace will be retained by them—namely, the granting of licenses. It is not proposed by this Bill to make any change in that respect. Those, my Lords, are the four existing authorities with regard to County Administration in Scotland. It will be necessary for me, I think, to refer also to the Parish Authorities. They are three in number. The first are the Parochial Boards, administering relief both to ordinary paupers and as required under the Poor Laws. The second Parochial Authorities are the Local Trustees for administering the Public Health Acts. They carry out the sanitary laws Generally the Administrative Authority is the same as the parochial body. The rates levied under the sanitary laws are paid half by owners and half by occupiers. It is proposed to transfer the jurisdiction under the Public Health Acts from the Local Authorities to the County Councils by this Bill. The third authority of this class, which I need only refer to by mentioning it, as it is not affected by this Act, is the School Board which administers the Education Acts in each parish. Therefore, my Lords, what it is proposed under this Bill to do is to transfer to the County Councils the powers and duties of the Commissioners of Supply, of the County Roads Trustees, of the Local Authorities administering the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts, and of the Justices of the Peace, as far as administrative powers are concerned, but excluding the powers with regard to the granting of licenses; and to transfer the jurisdiction of Parochial Authorities as far as the public health is concerned, but not deal-
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ing with their administration of the parochial laws, or the powers of School Boards under the Education Acts. I think now, my Lords, having stated what are the powers which it is proposed to transfer to the County Councils, I should refer to the constitution and powers of the County Councils themselves. First, as regards their constitution: Under the third clause of the Bill the County Councils are to be charged with the whole of the administrative and financial business of the counties. Under the provisions of Clause 4, as your Lordships are probably aware, the Councillors are to be elected. Perhaps here I might point out the position which under this Bill it is proposed should be given to the small burghs. In Scotland, as those of your Lordships who are acquainted with the Scotch Burghs are aware, there is a large number of Royal and Parliamentary Burghs, the populations of which vary in a great degree, many of them—most of them indeed—being of very ancient origin. Some of them have, of course, almost dwindled away, and have but small populations; but on the other hand others have greatly increased and have already become large and important towns. By the Report of the Committee upon the Burgh and Police (Scotland) Bill, which sat in the other House in 1888, it was recommended that all burghs having a population under 7,000 should be amalgamated with the county. In preparing this Bill the Government have followed the suggestion and recommendation of that Committee, and it is proposed that all the Royal and Parliamentary burghs having a less population than 7,000 should for the purpose of police administration and in regard to dealing with contagious diseases among animals be amalgamated with the counties. Royal and Parliamentary burghs above that fixed limit of 7,000 will not be disturbed by this Bill. But there is another kind of burgh in Scotland. They are called police burghs, and some of them, such as Govan, have enormous populations. These burghs will, for the purposes of this Bill, be treated as in the county; they will be subdivided into wards, and each ward will send a representative to the County Council. Then this proposal has been made with regard to the small burghs: that they are to them-

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selves elect their representatives (according to a number to be fixed by the Secretary for Scotland) from among the Town Councils, so as to avoid the expense and trouble of separate registration and separate elections. Then at first there will be in addition to the numbers fixed by the Secretary for Scotland under the Bill, four ex officio Councillors, who have been connected with the former authorities. That is to say, at the first election there will be those members in addition to the fixed number, and the object of that is to ensure there being on the first Councils some members who have been concerned in and are acquainted with the administrative work of County Government. There will be no Aldermen under this Bill: the number of the Councillors for each county will be settled by the Secretary for Scotland, and for the first election, when the number of Councillors for each County Council has been definitely fixed in each county, the Sheriff will divide the number of districts necessary according to the number of Councillors who are to sit on the Council, and each separate district will return one Councillor. After the first election there will be Boundary Commissioners appointed who will no doubt be able to perform the duty of dividing the districts more accurately than can be done by the Sheriff, who will make the division in the first instance. I now come to the question of the county electors, which is, perhaps, rather a more serious question. The electors will consist, first, of all the Parliamentary electors who are at present on the register for the Parliamentary elections, including those members of the electorate who are called "service franchise voters." In addition to that, all Peers will be placed upon the register, and women otherwise qualified as Parliamentary electors. The payment of county rates is made a condition of voting for these elections except in the case of service franchise members. Therefore there will be two payments of rates which will be essential before anyone can vote for members of the County Council; in the first place being on the County Register he will have to pay the Poor Rate, and in the second place being placed on the register for the election of County
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Councillors he will have to pay his portion of the Consolidated County Rate. But with reference to the service franchise voters, they are placed in rather a different position; they will not pay any rate directly, but they are liable to their employer, who can, if he chooses, at any time insist upon the repayment to him of any rate in respect of the houses which they occupy under him. These proposals are merely giving legislative recognition to an existing practice. It is also expressly provided that if the service franchise voter has had any deduction made from his wages in the nature of rates, no further claim can be made upon him in that respect. Then there is a provision that county electors can only vote in their own divisions. Then, my Lords, comes the register. I do not think I need say much about that. The register will consist of the Parliamentary and supplemental registers, having upon it the names of Peers and of women, who would not otherwise be qualified to vote as Parliamentary electors. In reference to what I said just now about the payment of the county rates, provision is made in the Bill that in the register a mark is to be placed against the name of every elector who has not paid his county rates, and who will therefore be disqualified from voting at an election. I see that a notice on this subject has been placed on the Paper, and I think perhaps we owe it to the fact that women are not eligible to sit as County Councillors; but in that respect we are simply following out the provisions of the Municipal Elections Acts, where they are not allowed to sit upon Town Councils. The elections are to be triennial. They will take place on the first Tuesday in December, except that the first election is to be on the first Tuesday of February next year, it being impossible to complete the registers earlier, so as to allow the election to take place at the ordinary period. In addition to the powers and duties which I have already referred to, which will be transferred from the Local Authorities to the Town Councils, they will have power to appoint Medical Officers and Sanitary Inspectors for the Counties. That, I think, your Lordships will agree is a very desirable provi-

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sion, because it is very desirable for the public health that the Inspectors and medical officers should have supervision over a larger area than is now possible. They will also have power to enforce regulations under the Rivers Pollution Acts. Now as to the question of rating. The principle of the Bill is that the rates should be paid half by owners and half by occupiers. But there is a very important deduction to be made from that principle, that is to say, a very important qualification as regards that principle, because the rates now levied solely on the owners have been stereotyped on the average for the last 10 years. They will continue to be paid by the owners only upon that average; and any increment above that will be paid half by the owner and half by the occupier. That is to say, the average rate of payment for the last 10 years by the owners in regard to the cost of police and for the different charges of administration in the county will be stereotyped, and the Sheriff is to fix that as the amount. There will be no appeal from his decision. But that average in the stereotyped rate is not to include any payment of debts, or the payment of any interest upon those debts. The average amount will be calculated, leaving out of that item the payment of any instalments of debts or of interest on debts. Otherwise the whole of the payments made under the authority of the Commissioners of Supply will be stereotyped upon an average of the last 10 years, and will fall to be paid by the owners only. Above that stereotyped amount any increment will be paid, half by the owners and half by the occupiers. I think this provision is a very satisfactory one. It has been adopted in recognition of the principle of representation and taxation. If the whole of the payments had been divided absolutely between the owner and the occupier, it would have placed upon the occupier to a very large extent a burden which he has never had before. It has, therefore, been thought right that, while the owner should continue to pay the average rate which he has paid during previous years, any increment upon that rate should be paid equally between him and the occupier after the establishment of the County Council. Then, my Lords, with regard to certain
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functions of administration, it has been thought that the country, as a rule, is too large an area; and under the Bill, except in very small counties, not exceeding six parishes, they must appoint District Committees. They must divide the counties into districts for certain purposes. The two particular points to which I desire to refer, in regard to which the Committees will take the place of District Councils, are, first, the management of the roads; and, second, the administration of sanitary matters. The Bill commits the administration under both these heads to the District Committees to be appointed under the Act, consisting of the district officers, and one representative from each Board within the district. This Board will supply the place of the Council, and does not involve any separate cost of election. Now, my Lords, I come to another point, and that is the Standing Joint Committees. In speaking just now of the constitution of the Commissioners of Supply, I did not refer to the Statutory Committee which is appointed by them —namely, the Police Committee. Under that Police Committee is the Statutory Committee. I think its number (speaking under correction from noble Lords present, who are well acquainted with these matters) must not exceed 15. They include the Lord Lieutenant of the county, and the Sheriff of the county. Their powers are very large. They have the appointment of the Chief Constable, and they have to report to the Commissioners of Supply at the general annual meetings. They have in their hands the general management of the police. It is now proposed by this Bill that a corresponding body called the Standing Joint Committee shall be appointed by the Council. The Bill proposes to give borrowing powers to the Standing Joint Committee of the Council, and the Commissioners of Supply, consisting of such number of County Councillors, not exceeding seven, as shall be appointed by the County Council annually at their meeting in May. The Sheriff of the county is to be an ex officio member of the Standing Joint Committee, or in case of his absence one of his substitutes to be nominated by him for the purpose, and the Committee are to elect one of their own number to be Chairman. For this purpose only

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will the Commissioners of Supply be retained; all their functions will be transferred to the County Councils; but for this purpose only—namely, that of electing seven members of their Board to sit upon the Joint Committee, will they be kept in existence. The Standing Joint Committee, in addition to the duties and powers which are now held by the Police Committee, will have a veto on all capital expenditure; that is to say, that it the Council determine to expend a sum of money upon constructing roads or furnishing water supply, or incur any capital expenditure of that kind, their decision will be subject to the veto of the Standing Committee; and the Standing Committee will have also a veto upon the borrowing powers and in regard to charging the future revenues of the county, which I think your Lordships will consider is a desirable power for them to have, so as to prevent future extravagance and future risk of a drain upon the county funds. Another point is that the Bill provides for an efficient audit. At present there is no general audit of accounts in Scotland. I think your Lordships will agree it is exceedingly desirous that a more efficient, general, and uniform system of official audit should be established for Scotland. I have already referred to the Boundary Commissioners to be appointed under the Act. The Commissioners are mentioned in the Act. Their function will be after next February to adjust the boundaries of parishes, and to make pecuniary adjustments wherever necessary between counties and parishes where the boundaries are altered, so as to involve financial changes. Now I have gone through the general provisions of the Bill, and I come now to the financial relations with the Exchequer. Upon this point your Lordships will probably take a greater interest in the measure. As you are aware, last year, under the authority of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, a now arrangement was made, by which the Probate Duties were returned—I am now speaking of Scotland alone—and an undertaking was given that the Excise Duties and License Duties should also be returned to Scotland. According to the estimates of the Probate Duty in Scotland the share of the Probate Duty amounted to £234,000. The Bill provides for grants in aid of
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£30,000 to the Highlands and Islands. For the police there is £155,000, for pauper lunatics £90,500, and for the medical relief of the poor £20,000. The amounts in those respects in all come to £265,500. The total amount received by Scotland during the current year is 1889–90 £499,600. Now, my Lords, to pay the grants amounting to £265,000 as regards police, medical authorities, and pauper relief, provision is made by the Bill. There is a special grant for maintenance of roads of £35,000. That makes a total grant of £330,000. Deducting that from the previous sum mentioned leaves £169,500. That is for the current year. In the next year, 1890–91, the local tax licenses, which are not, of course, included in the Returns I have given, will amount to £323,000, and the Probate Duty will come, as in this year, to £234,000, making a total of £557,000. The sums payable for police, pauper lunatics, and relief of the poor are calculated to be exactly the same — namely, £265,000. The sum paid for the roads will be £35,000, just as during this year; but for the Highlands and Islands only a sum of £10,000 will be allowed, instead of the £30,000 which was allowed this year and last year only as a temporary measure. The sum total, therefore, which will be required to pay for the items which I have mentioned to your Lordships will be £310,500, leaving available for further purposes £246,500. Now, the question to be decided was, what was to be done with this surplus money? As your Lordships are probably aware, in deference to the wishes of the Scottish people it has been proposed to devote those sums of £169,500 for this year, and of £246,500 for next year, to the payment of the school fees in all the State-aided schools in Scotland. My Lords, I should like to say one word upon that point, because I know it is a matter which has aroused great interest in this House and elsewhere. There are those who are of opinion that there should be absolutely free education in Scotland up to the Fifth Standard on the one hand, and there are others who think that such a system is dangerous in the extreme, and that, except under exceptional circumstances, there should be no free education at all. Upon that disputed question I do not propose to enter now;

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but I should like to call your Lordships' attention to the facts of the case. As I stated just now, the money which has been given back under the arrangement of last year has been given back to Scotland in the manner most agreeable to the Scottish people. It is entirely Scottish money. It is returned to Scotland in respect of payment of the Probate Duty, and in future what will come from the Excise Duty. I think, my Lords, after the expression of opinion in the other House of Parliament, which did not come from one Party or from one section only, but which came with absolute unanimity from the Representatives of the whole people of Scotland, Her Majesty's Government would have taken a very heavy task upon its shoulders in declining to listen to the wishes of the Scottish people. These proposals were laid before the other House; they were adequately discussed, and there was no question whatever that if the matter was to be left to the discretion of the people of Scotland it would be determined in the manner now proposed by this Bill—namely, for the relief of school fees in the first five Standards. I should like to call your Lordships' attention to the clause under which this proposal is carried into effect. By Clause 22, Sub-section 6, it is provided that—
"The balance shall be applied towards relief from payment of school fees in the State-aid Schools in Scotland, and shall be distributed in such manner and in accordance with such conditions as may from time to time be set forth in the Scotch Education Code annually submitted to Parliament."
Of course, the Scotch Education Code now submitted to Parliament cannot contain that regulation; but as soon as this Bill passes, a Minute will be laid upon the Table of the House from the Education Department, showing the proposed distribution of this money and the safeguards under which it is distributed to the different School Boards and Voluntary Schools in Scotland. The amounts received from the Exchequer for distribution by the County Councils will be under the direction of the Secretary for Scotland, and the Licensing and Excise Duties and Probate Duties will be paid over in the same manner as the existing grants. After the existing grants have been provided for, as I have explained to your Lordships, they will be distri-
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buted according to the provisions of a Minute which will be submitted to Parliament as soon as this Bill passes into law. There is every reason to believe that the money so available will be found sufficient to relieve the school fees in the whole of the first five Standards. If your Lordships will allow me, I should like to say a few words upon that to show why I think there is reason to suppose that the money will be sufficient to relieve education in the first five Standards. The average school expenditure in Scotland at this moment is £503,000, and the amount of all fees is about £310,000; but of that sum from the fees in first five Standards about £260,000 to £265,000 is received. I do not say that I am quite accurate in these figures, but I am as nearly right, I think, as it is possible to ascertain them. So that for the first five Standards there will be about £265,000 to be provided. Over the whole of Scotland the average amount received from fees over the whole six Standards comes to about 12s. 10d.; but the average received from fees in the first five Standards comes to less than 11s., and, by next year, it will come to about 10s. per head. So that there will be provided very nearly the amount required to exempt the first five Standards from any payment of fees. I do not say the amount will be exactly met; but under this Bill a certain number of schools will be allowed to exact fees in populous places like Glasgow and Edinburgh, where there may be some loss experienced in respect of the fees from the first five Standards, and they will be able to recoup themselves; so that there will be sufficient money to relieve the first five Standards from payment of fees. The first proposal is to distribute this money for relief of rates and for public purposes, and this exemption from payment of fees coming to 10s. per head will very largely go to the relief of rates or ratepayers in Scotland except in places where the fees charged are very high. I think I have now gone through the principal provisions of this Bill. I have not attempted to go into any details upon most of its provisions, judging that the consideration of those details will be very much better left to occupy your Lordships' attention in Committee, and that they will be very much better discussed

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there. But I should like, before I sit I down, to say a few words generally upon the change which by this Bill it is proposed to make. In proposing this measure to Parliament, and in making these changes in local administration in Scotland, I desire to say that I have not any fault (and I am sure I may speak for Her Majesty's Government when I say so) to find with the local administrative bodies. On the contrary, I am very glad to have this opportunity of recognising how earnestly they have done their work, that they have done it with zeal, efficiency, economy, and the greatest public spirit; and that while, on the one hand, they have avoided extravagance of expenditure, they have, on the other, always fully recognised the duties and responsibilities imposed upon them. This I know from my own private experience in Scotland; and I am glad to have this opportunity of saying that that experience has been amply borne out by the wider experience which I have obtained since I have had the honour to hold the office of Secretary for Scotland. But though I look upon the supercession of those bodies who have done their work so admirably in the past, with (as I confess I do) some feeling of regret, and though I feel that the responsibilities which will be thrown upon the Secretary for Scotland will be largely increased if this Bill passes, especially with regard to the educational system, it is with no feeling of doubt or misgiving that I ask your Lordships to give a Second Reading to this Bill, and I have every confidence that the work of local administration, placed as it will be on a broader and more extended basis, will be done as well as it has been done before. I am aware that at first there may be some friction. A new system cannot be introduced without some friction, and some difficulty. There may be at first some over zeal, which may be over zealous, some energy which may not be tempered with sufficient discretion, but on the whole the work will be satisfactorily done. If friction and difficulty should at first exist, that state of things will soon pass away, as it has done in the case of other newly created bodies, and I think that in course of time we may look for good solid work to be done by these bodies in
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Scotland. We are getting a better system of education; with better education there comes greater knowledge; and then with greater knowledge there comes a most legitimate and proper desire to take a more effective part, not only in the work of the Imperial Parliament, but in the work of the county in which the people live, and which is nearer to them, and more important to their needs. Naturally, I myself do not think that my countrymen, the people of Scotland, are as Conservative as I should like to see them—not nearly so Conservative; but from one point of view, I do think the people of Scotland are strongly and thoroughly Conservative. They are so proud of their ancient history and institutions which affect themselves and everything connected with their daily life, that they would be reluctant to make any change which would tend to cut them off from the system of County Government which has gone before, and from their historic and local associations. Consequently I look forward with great confidence to the exercise of the increased powers which will be given by this Bill to the county electors of Scotland. I cannot help thinking that you will agree with me that such a measure as this is a guarantee for increased and substantial political progress, recognising as I think it does existing interests, and at the same time giving effect to that desire which I have alluded to—namely, a closer participation in Local Government. I think that such a measure as this, bringing home as it does to all who are interested in Scottish affairs the fact that with the new privileges given to them by this Bill there will come new duties and new responsibilities and with them new burdens, when this Bill passes into law, if your Lordships give a Second Reading to it, as I hope you will to-night, will confer lasting benefits upon the local Government and people of Scotland. My Lords, it is in that spirit that the Bill has been drawn; it is in that spirit, I hope, that the Bill will be considered in Committee, and I ask your Lordships now to give a Second Reading to this Bill.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
LORD DENMAN: My Lords, I have often had the misfortune to address your

21
Lordships' House, and to be misunderstood from not having heard the Question put, whether upon a Motion for a Bill brought forward by myself or in opposition to any Motion brought forward by noble Lords. It is my privilege to be able to come and say whether I withdraw any Motion that I may make, or whether I am justified in my persistence in conduct which, with great reluctance, I pursue. This matter is one of principle. If my Motion were carried, the proposal for the word "now" could not be put. As to the Bill now before the House, it is said in the Scriptures that "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety." The noble Earl who has just sat down, the Secretary of State for Scotland, has given us a most excellent account of the composition and duties of the different bodies, which it is now proposed to supercede by a very much smaller number. My Lords, this is decidedly an experiment. It is impossible to say that the Local Government Bill of last Session was not an experiment. It is a case of paulo post futurum legislation. It has given a great deal of trouble and perplexity, and even the Commissioners who were the final referees say if there was any difference between counties and boroughs, they must alter their opinion. As to the division of money between them, everything is kept uncertain. We knew what we had to look to, when we had the Commissioners of Supply, when we had the Magistrates, and when the maintenance and care of the roads were under the control of most carefully selected bodies, who always, in my humble opinion, acted with great caution and great prudence. My Lords, I see no necessity for this Bill. It was my duty when in the Courts of King's Bench and Queen's Bench to submit to the Lord Chief Justice an abridgement of every record; if I made a mistake that mistake was a very serious one, and I believe I hardly ever had a record referred to in that way. The question before your Lordships is whether you will institute an entirely new system without being satisfied that the system which has now been attempted in England as an experiment will turn out to be a decided success or not. Money is wanted; every Council is asking for more. It puts one in mind of the caricature by H.B. of Lord Brougham repre-
22
sented as a schoolmaster and entitled "Henry asking for more." There is not a single instance in which "more" has not been demanded, and in which money has not been thrown out to be scrambled for. That is what comes from consulting demands made in the name of the community by County Councils. My Lords, I am certain if this Bill were postponed for three years you would better have seen by that time how the Local Government Bill for England has really worked. With regard to the attempt now being made, one is reminded of the words addressed by Falstaff to Henry V., when Prince of Wales, as to "robbing the Exchequer with unwashen hands." Even a Cabinet Minister responsible for the affairs of India has talked about reducing the tax upon plate. Every old tax is worth keeping, because of the extreme difficulty of introducing any new tax. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is a very ill-used man—40 millions! I never heard of such a sacrifice, and what has been the effect upon the taxes of this country? We may wish to have some modification of the Licensing Duties; we may wish to have some alleviation from the hardships of the Probate Duties, but we are going to tie our hands for ever. My Lords, we do not, because we are members of this House, forfeit all claim to common sense. I am satisfied that this Bill will be carried in a hurry if it gets through to-day. I have read it carefully, and there are provisions in it which I do not like; but I would not attempt to support any Amendment in Committee which would send the Bill out to the country with a slur upon it. What is the consequence if you want to alter a Bill at the end of the Session? The only time when there ever was a chance of asking this House to go on to the end of a Session was in a statute, now repealed, which gave a Peer the right to shoot a buck in Her Majesty's Forests on his way to Parliament, and another, in the presence of a keeper, on his return, when, if a Member did not stay to the end of it, he lost his pay. I am quite satisfied that this principle of saying there is no time to do this or that is a fallacious one. As if this House was not capable, if necessary, of sitting every month in the year! I have seen it sitting every month except October, and I have seen

23
good work done. I remember, in particular, the measure as to locomotive engines. A suggestion was made for compromise. It was very late in September, and the Lord President of the Council the Duke of Richmond being here in his place, and Lord Watson, Lord Advocate, I wanted a uniform system to be adopted; but it certainly was very late, and probably that had something to do with the result. Parliaments have met at all times of the year, and in all parts of Her Majesty's Dominions. I am not sure that the Imperial Parliament has ever been confined to a particular locality or that anything has been so confined, except the Court of Common Pleas, which by a statute, perhaps repealed, was always to sit at Westminster. I believe Her Majesty might sit at any time and hold an Imperial Parliament in any part of her dominions. I would only recall the Parliament held in the time of William Rufus at Rockingham Castle. There is a Rockingham Castle also in Ireland, where they want Home Rule. I venture to say that in according to these Local Governments anything as a substitute for Home Rule, you are giving way to the greatest delusion that ever was entertained. It is a system, which will cause disunion, debate, and discord. It is impossible to go on unless we assist the Chancellor of the Exchequer to raise the revenue by fair means, and I am sure that unless you will give him back the Probate Duties and the Licensing Duties you will repent it. With regard to taking away the jurisdiction over the police from the Magistrates, I think that is very objectionable, because the Magistrates are the only persons who know what the police really do. My Lords, I cannot see the use of having a Bill like this forced upon us, until the effect of its kindred Bill here is seen by the public. I am not one who looks to the effect of the future elections. Last Friday was the fourth anniversary of this Parliament. Mr. Brodrick said it was the third anniversary. Well, if so, my Lords, I can only say it has been a triennial Parliament so far, and I earnestly hope that it may last three years longer. Mr. Fox once held certain opinions, but changed them with regard to triennial Parliaments. I hope your
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Lordships will be on the register before the next Election. My noble Friend reminds me that in this Bill there is a very peculiar privilege given to women which might operate curiously with regard to any woman not living with her husband. If they are to be invested with political power it is rather a temptation to them I think, to leave their husbands. But the Reform Bill of 1884, I venture to say, was imperfect in that respect, as the suffrage was not given to duly-qualified women. I ventured, on behalf of married women, to put in a claim for them in case their husbands ill-treat them and if they had to get a divorce from their husbands; but I hope that in all cases divorces may be discouraged, and especially in Scotland. This Bill gives a right to married women even if not divorced. My Lords, I have often been without a Teller, and with regard to any opposition to this Bill I am sure that I have had no communication with a single person throughout the progress of the measure, except Lord Thurlow just now. I wish to see that the Bill may have fair play, but I think that the registration provided for is extremely imperfect. The names are not placed on the church-doors, and any new claims should have been made by the 31st of last month. There is plenty of time to consider the Bill if your Lordships choose to adjourn for a short period. On one occasion two Bills were carried which only took two minutes each, because I did not hear the Question put. If your Lordships would adjourn there would be an opportunity for you to visit Ireland and see what is going on there. It might do away with some prejudice. I am sure that if this Bill were extended to Ireland it would have no good effect. I firmly believe that we are much better without it. We are better as we are, especially with the attachment of the people of Scotland to old institutions. I know that from my own observation, and I am quite certain, also, that there is no complaint with regard to the owners in regard to paying their proper share of the rates which are levied. My Lords, it would certainly be a very strong measure to refuse all these very large sums which are offered for the assistance of the counties; but I firmly believe that if you allow the present economical Magistrates to carry on the business of the counties, and if you do

25
not take away their powers to tax the owners and occupiers—if you trust to them, you will find that there is no improvement likely to be made by creating a hybrid body which will always be in a state of opposition one part of it to the other and to the Legislature. I am certain that the necessities of the country require that the Magistrates of Scotland and the Magistrates of England and of Ireland—you are increasing the powers of Magistrates in Ireland, and degrading the Magistrates in England, and trying to lower the Magistrates of Scotland —should be left in their present situation. That is their own view; and one gentleman, who had been a High Sheriff, said to me recently, talking of the Bill, "We must grin and bear it." We have been complimented by the noble Lord at the Board of Trade for being an economical body, and I am sure we have been an economical body. We have 200 Magistrates in Derbyshire, and only 150 County Councillors with various qualifications. I say it is imposing duties upon small bodies which it will be most difficult for them to discharge, even if they have physical endurance to be able to go through the duties imposed upon them. My Lords, I venture to move that this Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Amendment moved, to leave out "now" and add at the end of the Motion, "this day six months."—(The Lord Denman.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I have seen it suggested with regard to this Bill that the changes which it makes in the system of Scottish Local Government are comparatively unimportant. I think that those who make that statement can have bestowed very little attention upon the contents of the Bill. This Bill makes a fundamental change in the whole system of Local Government, because it takes away all matters of local concern from the cognisance of one body and vests them in an entirely new constituency, and places them in the hands of an entirely new Council. This Bill places for the first time the local business of Scotland in the hands of the general body of ratepayers; and it goes even further than
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that—it places those affairs, to a considerable extent, in the hands of those who do not pay rates. Of course, it may be urged that the service electors do, as a matter of theory and in some manner which we do not quite understand, pay rates by some sort of implied bargain with those who employ them. But I think those of your Lordships who are familiar with county or local business know that, as a matter of fact, this question of local rates is not taken into consideration as far as the service voters are concerned. I would prefer to put it in another way. I think the line which the Government have taken is this—they have adopted the principle that it is the possession of a house which entitles the occupier to take his share of the local burdens and of the local business of the country; and I must say that to me this qualification appears to be the wisest and most sensible which you could possibly devise. It is a sensible qualification because the principle is intelligible; it has in it the essence of finality, and it carries with it some reason why the elector should possess a vote. I think it is very fortunate that the Government have not adhered to the line they first adopted when they introduced this Bill. At first, as your Lordships know, it was proposed that persons who are engaged in service should not possess a county vote unless they formally applied for it. I am glad that has been changed, and I think that change is a very great improvement. I am quite certain if the Government had adhered to their former plan a great deal of dissatisfaction and discontent would have been occasioned, and it would have been felt that even if the vote were given in the end, as of course it would have had to be given, it would have been simply given, not so much as a matter of favour, but because it was impossible to avoid it. Now, my Lords, let me say one word with regard to the powers which it is proposed to confer upon these new County Councils. It is said that these powers are chiefly possessed by Local Bodies in existence now; such, for instance, as the powers with regard to the management of the roads and the administration of the Public Health Acts, which are now entrusted to the Parish Authorities. The change which this Bill makes is that it confers those powers upon an entirely new set

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of persons. It takes away the powers from the Commissioners of Supply; it also takes the powers away from the parishes and from the Justices of the Peace. I regret that the Bill does not go a little further. I believe it would have been quite possible to have entrusted the power of licensing to the new County Councils, because I think there is a very important distinction in this respect between Scotland and England. I know very well that last year it would have been impossible to pass a Local Government Act for England if it had been proposed to transfer the licensing powers under the Bill; but some of your Lordships know very well that the licensing difficulties are not the same in Scotland as they are in England. It is considered by many as quite certain that before long the licensing powers will have to be transferred to the County Councils. I cannot say how far that expectation might have affected the passing of this Bill into law this Session, but I believe, as far as those powers are concerned, they might have been safely entrusted to the County Councils. This Bill hands over the entire administration of the county finances to a County Council elected by the householders, but it does so subject to a very important qualification. When it affects the question of borrowing money or of capital expenditure or when there is any reference to the management of the police, then it is provided that there is to be a Joint Committee of the Commissioners of Supply and County Councillors, seven of each, and in addition the Sheriff, who, by the way, I am glad to see is not necessarily to be the Chairman of that Sub-Committee. I know that some exception has been taken to this proposal, but I think that on consideration those who are best acquainted with Local Government will admit that this proposal is one of a most reasonable and sensible kind. This principle of a control being exercised when it is a matter of borrowing money for public purposes by some external authority has been admitted in England, and is admitted in Scotland at the present time. If it is sought to obtain a loan for the purpose of carrying out the Poor Law, or for the purpose of administering the Public Health Acts, it is necessary to obtain the sanction of a Board of Supervision, and similar
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arrangements obtain in England with regard to the same matters. I do not think we are saying anything at all unjustifiable against these new County Councillors if we say that they are not infallible, and that it is very probable, when they first enter upon their office, that they will be very anxious indeed to carry out all kinds of projects in the way of what they consider to be improvements, and that it is at all events most satisfactory that when they propose to make large expenditures of money there should be some body of persons representing those who are interested whose consent would have to be obtained before the expenditures are sanctioned. My Lords, I have seen the evils produced by this want of control in Scotland. I remember in the County of Forfar we obtained a Local Act for the management of our roads, and under that Act it was perfectly possible for the new trustees to borrow money without any check. New trustees coming fresh into office, a great many of them being tenant farmers, would naturally want to have the roads improved as quickly as possible, although it might be—of course it did not necessarily follow—that in a few years afterwards they would be in the country. Therefore, all improvements were carried out at once, thus incurring a great deal of needless expense, and, indeed, a great deal of the money was thrown away. I must say myself, having had something to do with these matters, that it is a most sensible and wise precaution to establish a Joint Committee such as this which is proposed. There is another argument, which people are too apt to forget, and that is that owners of property in Scotland pay half the whole rate, and in virtue of that very large payment it is surely advisable that there should be some representation of property. I do not care how you give it; but, still, I think that owners of property should have some security that their money should not be spent solely by those whose interest in the matter, and therefore in taking care of it, is after all comparatively small, and whose contribution to the funds is necessarily still smaller. Now, my Lords, one word with regard to the numbers of the Councillors. I have received from the noble Marquess a statement of the numbers which he proposes, I do not say finally, but which, in the first instance

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he has an idea of proposing, for the various counties. I hope that before the noble Marquess comes to any final conclusion on that matter he will consult very carefully the public bodies in the various counties—I do not mean only the Commissioners of Supply, but I allude to the Road Trustees, or any other body which represents the public to any considerable extent, because we all have one interesting this matter—what we want is sensible, intelligent, economical local administration. It would be a great pity if such bodies were too few in number, because then the public would feel that they were not adequately represented; but I think, on the other hand, it would be as great an evil if those bodies were to be too numerous, because that would throw a very large expenditure upon the rates, and if you have once established a large body it becomes very difficult indeed to reduce its numbers at any period afterwards. There are, of course, a great many matters of detail in such a measure as this, and with those I do not intend to trouble your Lordships now. There is only one to which I will allude, and that is that, in forming the District Committees with regard to the management of roads, I am sorry to see that it is proposed to appoint only a member connected with each parochial body. I should object more than I do to these proposals if I did not believe that the constitution of these parochial bodies is very likely to be enlarged. At all events, the noble Marquess will have observed that in the District Committees those representatives will almost in every case outnumber the County Councillors with whom they will have to sit. Those, my Lords, are all the remarks with which I will trouble you on the Second Reading; and I may say of this Bill that I regard it as a measure for creating a new machinery in the shape of County Councils. It is obvious that, if it is found to work well, its provisions can be largely extended hereafter; and I observe that it is in the power of the Secretary for Scotland to entrust to these Councils hereafter any other matters of local interest which he may think it advisable to entrust to them, subject always to the sanction of Parliament. The Commissioners of Supply have done their work well, as the noble Marquess has said. They have been very
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economical; they have done their work very sensibly, and they have restricted their action to the subjects with which they had to deal. I have every confidence that their successors will follow their example, and I think it is high time we should take a clear step of this kind in popularising Local Government. I think, on the whole, that under this Bill the new County Councils will do the work of Local Government in a very practical manner.
THE MARQUESS OF TWEEDDALE: I do not intend to occupy your Lordships' time at any length, but I wish to make one or two remarks upon this Bill with regard to a subject which, I think, will justify me in asking your Lordships' attention. In the first place, I wish to add my testimony to the great value of the measure which has been introduced this evening. I believe it will carry out its aim and object—namely, the placing of Local Government in Scotland on a more popular basis than that on which it has hitherto stood. It is quite true, as has been remarked, that local affairs have been hitherto admirably administered in Scotland, both as to economy and efficiency; but the management has been in notoriously too few hands, and the extension of the control of local matters, and the placing the administration of them on a more popular basis, will, no doubt, be of great benefit to Scotland in many ways. The particular point to which I wish to draw your Lordships' attention, in the first instance, is this. Some of your Lordships are aware that Corporations in Scotland, such as Gas Corporations, Water Companies, and Railroads, have hitherto enjoyed a representation, in respect of the rates which they paid, to a very large extent. They are represented on the Boards of Commissioners of Supply; they are represented on the Boards of Road Trustees; they are represented on the Boards of Local Authorities and upon the Parochial Bodies. By this Bill every sort of local representation is swept away, and they are left without any voice in the election of the Councillors. This seems to me to be altogether inconsistent with the intention of the Bill. The noble Marquess used the words that payment of rates was essential to taking an active part in the elections to the Councils. When I tell your Lordships that the railroads alone in Scotland pay £200,000

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a year in rates, you will not be surprised to hear that hitherto they have had some voice in the management of local affairs in respect of those rates. I am not able to speak so well with regard to the Gas and Water Corporations, but I have no doubt that they contribute largely also. I have a list of counties here amounting to 18, in which they are the largest contributors to the rates in those counties. Yet, notwithstanding this, as I said before, their representation is to be entirely swept away. Now, having regard to the fact that the only change which was made in this Bill in its passage through another place was with regard to the right of eligibility to the Council being extended to parties who practically pay no rates whatever, it does seem strange that those who have hitherto enjoyed the right of representation should have that right entirely abrogated. I hope the noble Lord who has charge of this Bill will take this matter into consideration; and I do not think it will be difficult for him to devise some means by which those powerful Corporations who contribute so largely to the rates in Scotland as well as in England should have a voice in the representation. Another of the points on which I should ask your Lordships' attention is with reference to the rules relating to the appointment of officers under Clause 82. It seems to me of very doubtful expediency compelling the new Councils to appoint the Clerks of Supply. Under that clause they have no option, but they must appoint for the first year whoever happens to be the Clerk of Supply. The Clerks of Supply will be, in many instances, by no means the least important of the officials who will be brought under the County Councils. In the County to which I belong the Clerk to the Road Board is a more important individual, and is far better paid than any other, and it seems to me either that the Councils should be permitted to appoint their own officers from the first, or they should be allowed to select from among the officers brought under their control. In that way I should prefer myself giving them full liberty in the choice of their officers. It is more important, especially at the commencement of such an institution as this, that the Council should have the best advice that they can possibly get.
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Anyone who has had anything to do with Scottish business knows the importance of this, and how much the efficiency of the administration of Scottish local business will depend upon these posts being properly filled. I think the County Councils should at least have the option of appointing any officer whom they think most efficient to act as County Clerk. Then, my Lords, Clause 22, which has been referred to by the noble Lord, deals with the question of the appropriation of the License Duties and Probate Duty Grants. Those grants are distributed in six different ways. In the first five the sum allocated is a fixed sum, and the sum which is to be given in relief to State-aided schools is to be the balance. This sum may vary very considerably, but it seems to me to be very desirable if it were possible that the sum should be so far as it can be made a fixed one. I do not know whether that is impossible to be done, but I should like to suggest, at any rate, whether it would not be practicable to strike an average, say, for the last ten years, so that the Local Board might know pretty nearly what sum they would be entitled to in regard to the relief of school fees. The only other point which I have to refer to is the appointment of Justices of the Peace under Clause 10. That clause says that the Chairman shall be by virtue of his office a Justice of the Peace of the county. Justices of the Peace have hitherto been appointed by the Crown. I do not know whether the appointment by an Act of this kind will make any difference, or whether it will be necessary to make any new provision under which a Justice of the Peace will in future be made otherwise than by the Crown. I have no other observations to make than to say that I believe this measure will be attended with great advantage to Scotland. We have all had experience of popular Government in the administration of roads and schools, and, speaking for myself, and in my capacity as chairman of bodies of both kinds, I can only say that the introduction of the popular element has been attended with complete success. I have, therefore, no fear whatever of the operation of this Bill.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY: My Lords, I have very few remarks to make

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I feel that matters of detail would be best dealt with in Committee, but I should not like so large and important a measure as this affecting Scotland to pass without expressing an opinion upon it. I should myself have preferred that the Bill should have started upon another basis in dealing with the question of Local Government in Scotland, that is to say, I should have preferred the parish to be taken as a unit to start from, then the election to the District Committee, and then to the Central Council. But I recognise the difficulties of proceeding upon that basis in such a measure, and especially in Scotland; and I think that, taking it as a whole, the Bill now put down for Second Reading is as good a one as could be framed upon the lines upon which it has gone. But there are certain points which I think will have to very carefully considered in Committee. I agree with what my noble Friend behind me said as to the advantages of the Joint Standing Committee for the purpose of controlling the expenditure, but I do not entirely agree with him as to the bearing it may have upon the question of the maintenance of roads. As I read the Bill the whole of the powers now vested in the Road Trustees are transferred to the Road Board, which is to take the place of the Committees of Chairmen— I am now speaking of my own county under our private Act. This Board then delegates to the District Committee the entire maintenance of the roads, and the District Committee will have the management of them and will assess the rates. Therefore the whole of the rating for the maintenance of roads comes through the District Committee. But by Section 18, although they have the power of rating, yet the power of doing certain things for the improvement of the roads, is taken away from them. If your Lordships will look at that clause, Subsections 6 and 7, you will see that no capital works, that is, works involving capital expenditure, can be undertaken in any county or any district, without the written consent of the Standing Joint Committee; and then it is enacted that capital works are to include the erection, rebuilding, or enlargement of buildings, and the construction, reconstruction, or widening of roads and bridges. My experience in Aberdeenshire is that the powers conferred upon the Road Com-
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missioners have been largely taken advantage of, but as I read this clause in future, though the District Committee will have the power of levying the rates under the Roads and Bridges Act, they will not be able to improve the roads and bridges in their district without the consent of the Standing Joint Committee; and I think that might be modified.
LORD BALFOUR: Not if they pay for them out of the rates for the current year.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLY: I was going to add that I see there is a provision for the payment of all works out of the current year's rates. Now, this is a very startling proposal, and will require consideration in Committee. However, I simply call the noble Marquess's attention to that, and perhaps by the time the Bill comes into Committee he will have considered it. Then the only other important point in this Bill upon which I would desire to say a few words is the proposal to devote the balance coming from the Probate and Licensing Duties to the relief of State-aided Schools. Many objections, no doubt, have been raised to that proposal, but I am quite clear that the majority of Scotchmen are in favour of that proposal, and I think the noble Marquess was quite justified in his reference to the almost unanimity with which that proposal has been received. I can only account for that unanimity by referring it to the feeling which has been manifested since 1874 when the Education Act was passed, and when a large expenditure was thrown upon the rates in connection with the schools, which had not previously fallen upon them. As your Lordships know, the Education Act imposed upon the rates a very heavy burden which they had not previously been called upon to bear, and an increase of that kind is always felt very severely indeed by the poorer ratepayers. This Bill will, I think, relieve them, for it is not so much a relief to the parents of the school-children as to the poorer ratepayers. It will, no doubt, be a very sensible relief to them. With those few words I beg to express my approval of this Bill.
LORD FORBES: My Lords, I shall say but little at this stage of the Bill. I am sorry to see in this measure a repetition of what was done in the English County Council Bill. I have to

35
say that my remarks upon this matter are not original, for they really follow what was said by Earl Beauchamp with regard to enlargement of area. I do not think, in England, the same objection exists, because, there, political feeling does not rise so high as it does in Scotland; but I cannot help thinking that it is unfortunate we should have a repetition of the same state of things. I think, instead of there being one County Councillor for each area as proposed, it would have been much better if the area were enlarged and six or so returned for that area. You would then get, as representatives, different sorts of people. You would get, perhaps, the larger tenant - farmers, the doctors, or the veterinary surgeons of the neighbourhood, whereas, if you have one Councillor only for one area, you will perhaps get the person returned who puts himself most prominently forward. I very much fear that the effect of that clause will be that the most pushing or energetic person, possibly some farmer Radically inclined, will be found putting himself forward. I do not know what may happen to this Bill in Committee, so many Bills disappear at that stage; but I desire to give notice that I intend to move the deletion in Clause 82 of the latter part of Sub-section 3, the whole of Sub-section 4, and the latter part of Sub-section 6. My Lords, it seems tome that this point of one Councillor, one area is an important one and ought to be well considered. In other respects I think the Bill a useful and necessary one.
THE EARL OF MINTO: My Lords, I wish to make only one remark. To my mind this Bill is in many respects a valuable one, and I hope it will work well in Scotland; but, in my opinion, the disfranchising part of it, as regards many of those who are qualified to take an intelligent part in the government of the county is a defect. Those persons are at present rather a numerous body, and by this Bill you are diminishing the number of those who may take part in treating subjects to be brought before the Council. I only wish to make that remark, and I shall perhaps in Committee move an Amendment embodying my views on the point. I rather think that the noble Lord who has just
36
spoken looks upon it in the same light as I do myself.
On question that ("now") stand part of the Motion, resolved in the affirmative: Then the original Motion was agreed to: Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

INTERPRETATION BILL. (No. 92.)
Adjourned Debate on Amendment moved on Third Reading resumed according to Order.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I do not think I ought to persist in the Amendment which I had sought to introduce into this Bill after the remarks of my noble Friend upon it with regard to both place and time. Although I am still of opinion that it is important some such amendment of the law should be made, yet I should be sorry to carry by a majority an Amendment of this description, which some noble and learned Lords think is not really called for by the necessities of the case. I can only say, in abandoning this Amendment, that I shall claim from those noble and learned Lords next year their assistance into putting into a form more satisfactory to themselves some general enactment, which shall have a more definite legal meaning attached to it, so that that confusion shall not be possible in private Acts which exists at present. I know it is very easy to say that you can always cure that by putting a specific section into the Act. That is quite true; but the answer is that people do not do so, and the consequence is that from time to time Acts are passed without any provision as to what meaning is to be attached to them in computing time. Under the circumstances, after the opposition which has been offered to it, and the explanations given by my noble and learned Friends the other night, I do not think it would be becoming in me to persist in the Amendment of which that alteration formed the subject.
Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
Another Amendment proposed, in Clause 12, line 11, after the word "India" insert
"And where parts of such dominions are under both a central, and a local legislature, all

37
parts under the central legislature shall, for the purposes of this definition, be deemed to be one colony."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
Amendment agreed to.
Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL. (No. 186.)
Read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the whole House on Tuesday next.
COUNTY COURT APPEALS (IRELAND) BILL. (No. 104.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  LORD FITZGERALD: My Lords, I have to move an Amendment on Clause 13, by which the right to appeal is given to a defendant who has not appeared at the hearing, within one month. The Amendment is to insert the words at line 19 after the word "may."
  LORD HERSCHELL: My Lord, I shall not oppose the Amendment which my noble and learned Friend has now proposed, though I must confess I am not satisfied that it is really necessary. The fact is that this clause was considered after the Bill was introduced at the Irish Office. After my noble and learned Friend gave notice of a Motion to reject Clause 13, it was again considered at the Irish Office, and especially by the learned Solicitor General for Ireland, and he was satisfied with the clause as it now stands. I do not profess myself to know much about the special needs or wants of Ireland in this respect, but I do rely upon the matured view of the learned Solicitor General for Ireland who has considered the matter. But as my noble and learned Friend presses this point I shall not oppose him; of course, the matter may still be considered elsewhere.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons; and to be printed as amended. (No. 205.)

INDIA—DISTRESS IN THE DIAMOND HARBOUR DIVISION OF THE PEGUNNAHS.

  QUESTION.—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY,in rising to ask the Secretary of State
  38
  for India if his attention has been called to the Report of Mr. Bolton, collector, on the distress in the Diamond Harbour sub-division, and to the fines of two rupees or a week's imprisonment on nine starving men, and of one rupee on a woman, inflicted by Mr. Maguire, the Joint Magistrate of Alipore, for a breach of the Revenue Laws, they having scraped some salt from the earth to add to their meal of tamarind seeds and stalks of the water-lily; and to ask the Secretary of State what portion of the Reserve Famine Fund has been devoted to the famine in Ganjam and Orissa, said: My Lords, before putting the question which stands on the Notice Paper in my name, I wish to mention the great good which has resulted from the efforts of Lord Connemara, the Governor of Madras, and from his personal inspection of the district at the northern extremity of the Presidency, regardless of the hot season, when it is usual to take refuge in the hills at Ootacamund. Besides establishing relief works, the Governor of Madras has directed gratuitous relief to be given to women and children, who, but for that, must have perished; and local liberality has been encouraged by the presence of the Governor. The Indian Press is full of praise of Lord Connemara, not only for his exertions, but also for the way in which he has avoided the mistakes made in former famines; and it also states that he has received a message of commendation from Her Majesty the Queen. I hope that the noble Viscount the Secretary of State will be able to confirm the truth of that Report. The questions which I wish to ask the Secretary of State for India are —first, whether his attention has been called to the Report of Mr. Bolton, collector, on the distress in the Diamond Harbour sub-division. He went there, but he was there for so short a time that the people were not aware that he had been at the place until he was gone. In his Report he minimises the distress, it is said on insufficient information, and states that it is the proper policy not to demoralise the people by giving them food. It must be remembered that there is no Poor Law in India, and that the Government alone can relieve distress. I do not ask the Secretary of State to censure Mr. Bolton, but I ask him to disagree with that

  39
  gentleman. Perhaps the best way of showing disagreement would be for the Indian Government to circulate Lord Connemara's Minute in other famine districts, if it is really as able a document as it is said to be. It has been stated that Lord Connemara has had experience of former famines, and has avoided the mistakes then made. As to Mr. Maguire's sentences for breach of the Revenue Laws by starving men, I hope the Secretary of State will be able to say that this Magistrate has been directed to exercise more discretion in future. The nine men who were imprisoned by him for a week not being able to pay the fine were perhaps benefited, as they must have been fed whilst in prison; but the woman said that if she were sent to prison her two infant children would starve. A Hindoo pleader who was present, speaking merely as amicus curiœ) besought the Magistrate to dismiss her with a nominal fine, but without success. At last the Magistrate said to the woman, "you are fined a rupee which this Baboo will pay." The Baboo paid the fine, and the woman was let go. One feels somewhat curious to know whether Mr. Maguire, like most Irishmen in India, is a Home Ruler or not. If a similar occurrence took place in Ireland, what an outcry there would have been from the whole people and Press of Ireland at the conduct of the Magistrate. With regard to the last question in my notice, I may say that I have seen statements in the Press to the effect that the Reserve Famine Fund has been swept away or swallowed up in the North-West frontier; but I cannot believe that those statements are correct, because I find that in his Despatch of April 12, 1888, sanctioning the raising of the Salt Tax, the Secretary of State has written the following paragraph:—
  "There is another reason of great moment for endeavouring to keep the duty on salt as low as practicable. One of the objects at which the Government of India aimed in the reforms that were instituted, of which great political and financial importance was foreseen, was to place a reserve in the hands of the Administration, for the purpose of meeting any serious emergency, and to enable them to obtain temporarily a considerable addition to the Revenue by an increase of duty, of which the mass of the people would be hardly aware."
  This extract from a Despatch of April of last year would indicate that precau-
  40
  tions must have been taken to reserve a fund for the emergency of the famine which has now occurred. From what has transpired in another place I am afraid the noble Viscount will not be able to give a satisfactory account of what has become of this fund, but it is clear from a telegram I have seen, stating that a total number of 80,000 people in Ganjam are receiving gratuitous relief, that the Indian Government has not regarded the disappearance of the fund, but must have supplied money from the equivalent in India of the Consolidated Fund. Lord Ripon lowered the Salt Duty a short time ago: it has been raised again, and the people of India are suffering very much in consequence. The last Medical Reports say that salt is required as a preventative against cholera, and there is no doubt also that the cattle suffer from murrain for want of salt. I think, my Lords, that before long the noble Viscount will have to look about for some other means of raising Revenue.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS): My Lords, with regard to the action taken by Lord Connemara in regard to the distress existing in the Presidency of Madras, I think you will agree that it is impossible to speak too highly of it. The Governor of Madras sent one of his most trusted officers at the earliest possible opportunity to examine into the whole question; and then, although the weather was extremely hot and the season far advanced, he thought it was wise to go to the district affected and make searching inquiry himself. The results have been most satisfactory. Lord Connemara has undoubtedly by this action given enormous encouragement to all those who are engaged in relieving the distress which exists, and has done a great deal to alleviate the sufferings of the people. It is quite true that Her Majesty has sent a message to Lord Connemara approving of his conduct, and unquestionably that high compliment the Governor of Madras has fully deserved. I have not yet received an official copy of the Report of Mr. Bolton, and therefore I must decline to discuss that matter at present. Neither have I received any information as to the alleged punishments referred to by the noble Lord, inflicted for scraping salt from the earth, but I will make inquiries. As to

  41
  the famine, I can assure the noble Lord that the Viceroy is fully alive to all the dangers and difficulties of the situation, and that everything that can be done to alleviate the distress in Bengal and Madras has been done. As to the noble Lord's question regarding the Famine Fund, I must explain that there is no actual Reserve Fund. The expenditure which would be necessary to alleviate distress in Madras and Bengal will be meanwhile met out of the Provincial Funds, and according to a telegram which I received a few days ago the sum which would be required in Madras for the current year is set down at Rx82,000 and for Bengal at Rx40,000. The Provincial Governments are quite able to meet that expenditure. Of course if they had not had sufficient funds to do what they desired they would have applied to the Central Government, and they would have been offered money out of the Indian Imperial Exchequer, but I am happy to say that there is no probability of that being necessary.

TRANSPORT FOR THE AUXILIARY FORCES.

  QUESTION—OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD TRURO: My Lords, I have to call your attention to, perhaps, one of the greatest anomalies that ever existed—namely, a standing Army—which has grown within the last 30 years to the number of 250,000 men, unprovided with transport. We have, within the last week or two, had the powerful assistance of the Lord Mayor, who has interested himself in the question of providing the Volunteer Regiments generally with proper equipment. However successful the Lord Mayor may be in London, and however successful the provincial towns of England may be should they follow his example, it is perfectly clear that without transport that Army of Volunteers must be practically useless, for the simple reason that it must be immovable. It can neither advance to the front to meet the enemy nor can it retire, if necessary, to take up a better position. Defeat, therefore, under such circumstances would simply mean its total and entire destruction. Inasmuch as the Volunteer Force has existed for a period of 30 years, it does seem somewhat extra-
  42
  ordinary that, until quite recently, as far as I know, no attempts have been made on the part of the Military Authorities to organise in any way whatever a Volunteer Transport. Like many other requirements for the benefit of the Volunteer Force, the first suggestion of Transport has come from Volunteer officers themselves. Colonel Sir William Humphreys, a man of great ability and energy himself, undertook—one can hardly call it the organization, but an attempt at the organization of a Transport Force for his own corps in Hampshire, and I believe he met with some what unusual success. I think it will be found that similar success will not attend other battalions of the Volunteer Force, even should their officers exhibit the same ability and energy. It cannot be expected from the general public in this country that they will be willing, without either money reward or some honorary acknowledgment, to give gratuitously their horses, their carts, and their men, too, perhaps two or three times during the year in order to try whether the proposed scheme will be effective. I cannot therefore but come to the conclusion that although this able officer has been successful in his attempt, it is idle to suppose that such attempts, if carried out in other parts of the country, can attain like success. But it was upon this favourable Report of Colonel Humphreys that the War Office has been induced to-issue two different Circulars in relation to transport for the Volunteers. The first of these Circulars was issued on the 14th February, 1888, when 10 regiments were selected in certain localities for the purpose of ascertaining whether the scheme suggested by Colonel Humphreys promised success. Now I do not know whether the localities in which these regiments were selected were localities most favourable to the trial of the scheme, or least favourable to it; but of this I am certain, that in trying such an experiment as this it should, to have been really of value, have been tried in the least favourable places. Whether that was so or not I will not pretend to say—certainly some of the localities, from what is stated in a Paper which I have read recently, do not appear to have been the least favourable. Now, the

  43
  War Office Circular lays down very properly certain requirements in relation to this Transport Service, and in looking at the Return that was furnished it would appear, as it has been with regard to many other things in the Volunteer service, as though the War Office authorities would say, "you must do it yourselves. "They have had no scheme of any kind whatever, and they have no scheme now; for the new instructions which they issued after this experiment to Colonels of Volunteer regiments were to register the cart and horses (I do not think men) in their several districts is hardly to be called a scheme. They have also intimated a wish that every encouragement should be given to those who are willing to lend their carts and horses for different days in the year that the experiment may be fully tried. Now, in the first instance, the War Office intimated its willingness to give £45 towards the expenses of the experiment to each of the battalions. In some cases the expenses will be found to have been in excess of that amount, though in one or two cases I believe the expenses of the battalion were kept within the margin of £45. Let me take the first Volunteer Battalion that stands upon the list. A very important part of any experiment of this kind was not tried— namely, the picketing of the horses. And why? The report says that the weather was unfavourable, and that the horses were therefore not picketed. Certain artificers were required, three to each battalion; it does not appear that artificers were forthcoming in anything like the number required. In one case the horses were too big for the water cart; in another case the horse bolted with the water cart, the shaft was broken, and it became utterly useless. In four or five instances in this return the horses were not picketed, because, as reported, the weather was wet or cold, or because the horses had no picketing-gear. In this Report it is stated that the Volunteers applied to the Government for the use of picketing-gear, which was refused. Now, seeing the small allowance—for small I must call it— that is demanded for all the exigencies of the Volunteer Service from the War Office, I think there should be no objection to an addition being
  44
  made in this respect in order that a force of this character may be brought to a state of efficiency. At some time there can be no doubt a very great increase in the expenses will have to be provided for, and Her Majesty's Government must therefore be prepared for it. My Lords, after having tried this experiment, and after having received the Reports from the different regiments, there came this letter of the 22nd March, 1889, relating to the transport of the Auxiliary Forces, by which, at the direction of the Commander-in-Chief, Volunteer Officers were informed that the reports from the various districts had shown that a system of Volunteer transport was not requisite, and that it had been decided to discontinue, as far as the War Office was concerned, any steps in that direction. The circular further stated that officers commanding Volunteer battalions should annul any contracts of this nature which they had entered into on behalf of the State, and they were instructed to give notice to terminate them as soon as possible. The whole scheme has come to an end, and the War Office simply says that we are to rest where we are. My Lords, can it be contended by anyone that this is a proper condition for a standing army to be in? Is it possible that in a week or a fortnight the carts required for the transport of ammunition and baggage can be got? Your Lordships know from your own personal experience that matters of this kind certainly take a month or so, and if, as has been supposed by some authorities, an attack on this country would be settled one way or another in a week or ten days, I should like to know what would become of the Volunteer army without transport. This circular goes on to say that the experiments have proved that "ample transport is forthcoming for the use of Volunteers. "Whether or not this has been proved in the places which are least favourable, "I do not know. I believe that in the places selected there was abundance of transport. But it is not an abundance of transport alone that is necessary; it is the organisation of transport. Anyone who knows anything of these matters is aware that to carry them out requires a great deal of time and practice. You can no more organise the necessary transport at a moment's notice than you can organise imme-

  45
  diately any other great undertaking. Then it is further stated that—
  "No further grants in aid will be made, but His Royal Highness desires that there may be kept up in all districts a careful system of registration of available transport which can be obtained upon any emergency so as to ensure that the transport requirements of the Volunteer Force may be met with ease and rapidity. As the practical testing of such a scheme will materially aid to efficiency, Volunteer Officers should be encouraged to take this transport with them when going into camp, and on other occasions."
  I do not know, my Lords, where the encouragement is! If withdrawing the sum at first granted is encouragement, I think it is strange indeed. If they think the farmers will lend them horses and carts on all occasions for nothing, I think they will find themselves greatly mistaken. We all know that the Englishman is a very fine fellow, but I am not quite certain that he is not a tradesman before he is a patriot. Then the Circular says that—
  "All Inspecting Officers should forward Reports with regard to this scheme, and of the practical steps taken from time to time to put it into execution."
  I do not desire to detain your Lordships longer on this matter. I simply desire to call the attention of the noble Lord the Secretary of State for War to those two Circulars, which are certainly inconsistent with each other. When I say inconsistent, I mean that the experiment has not been sufficiently tried to satisfy the War Office that what they are proposing to do is likely to be effective. I am satisfied it would not be effective, and the question I am desirous of putting to the noble Lord is this—Has the Government abandoned, once and for all, its intention, not of registering carts and horses, but of organising a transport system for the Volunteer Forces? I say that, as far as I can judge, if they propose to abandon to the efforts of the Volunteers themselves the organisation of transport for that service, they are not doing justice to a force which has endeavoured to the best of its ability to supply a defence for the country in case its services may ever be required.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS): My Lords, the great interest which the noble Lord has always taken in the Volunteer Force fully justifies him in
  46
  bringing forward any subject having reference to that force in this House; but I am afraid that the views of the noble Lord on this question and the views held by the Military Authorities hardly go together. I take it that the noble Lord starts with the assumption that the total and entire destruction of the Volunteer Force would ensue if they had to meet an enemy and have not an organised transport. I can quite understand, in the case of a country being invaded, or an expedition advancing from the coast where carts and horses were not easily procured, that dictum as to the necessity for transport being correct; but I submit to your Lordships, in the case of a country like England, with its vast supply of carts and horses, we are in a very different position, and that, as a matter of fact, it would be extremely easy on any sudden alarm to obtain such transport as was required for any Volunteer Forces. The noble Lord has called special attention to certain War Office Circulars, and it is necessary for me to detain your Lordships for a few moments while I explain what occurred in regard to the two experiments made which those Circulars had reference to. As the noble Lord has stated, the result of the experiment made by Sir William Humphreys induced the War Office last year to select 10 infantry battalions to further try the experiment whether carts and horses could be procured and the men to drive them, and whether those carts and horses could be brought out for three days' practice during the time the battalions went into camp. By that arrangement, to pay the expenses of those carts and horses being out for three days the sum of £45 was given to each battalion. The noble Lord appears inclined to cavil at the opinion of the War Office that the experiment was successful, and he instances the fact that, in one or two cases, horses were not picketed. I believe that in a few cases they were not picketed, but that was simply because it was not thought necessary for climatic reasons to incur loss which could be avoided. Whether that was due to the action of Local Authorities or to the Commanding Officers of the battalions, or the Officer commanding the sub-district, I do not know; but it was considered that colds might result to the horses from being picketed out at night,

  47
  and I think that most people will agree that the Officers were perfectly right. At any rate, the opinion of the War Office was that the experiment was eminently satisfactory, and that it showed there was an ample supply of carts and horses for the transport of Volunteers. From what we know of the resources of the country, we have every reason to believe that this applies equally elsewhere, and that the same conditions will be found to exist in other parts of the country. The noble Lord will see that the Circular expressly refers to it as an experiment—nothing more. It was never intended that £45 should be granted to every infantry battalion in the country for the purpose of organising transport; the experiment was solely made to see whether the same thing could be carried out in other parts of the country, and our experience has shown that it can. Then the noble Lord referred to contracts, which, in some cases, had been entered into by Commanding Officers with persons owning carts and horses to supply them under certain conditions of emergency or when required. But it is obvious that we could not allow Commanding Officers to enter into contracts in which we were pledged to purchase those carts and horses at a future time. Clearly, in such a matter, it is necessary that headquarters should have the last word as regards the price that should be eventually paid. Therefore, it was proposed to carry out the idea in another way; that a skeleton form of contract should be sent round to all Commanding Officers of Volunteer battalions asking them to ascertain whether persons owning carts and horses in their neighbourhood would enter into such contracts. That scheme had nothing whatever to do with the scheme which Sir William Humphreys originated; it was a distinct system altogether, and was adopted in consequence of one or two Volunteer officers having entered into contracts. That was to some extent a little misunderstood by Commanding Officers, but at any rate the returns which they made showed that owners of carts and horses were unwilling to pledge themselves in the future to supply them without a price being agreed upon beforehand. But, my Lords, in the meantime, something else has happened. The National
  48
  Defence Bill has passed; and we can now requisition carts and horses, not for a limited period merely, but we can actually take those carts and horses and purchase them for as long as they are wanted. Before that Bill passed carts and horses could only be taken for a day's journey, but now they can be bought out and out at a value fixed; and when there is disagreement the matter may be referred to a County Court Judge. So that we are in a much more advantageous position with regard to obtaining transport now than when we issued the skeleton form for such contracts. As I have stated to your Lordships, we can now take carts and horses when they are wanted, according to the value set upon them at the time by the valuers. My Lords, I do not think it would be reasonable to ask the taxpayers of this country to keep up for what the noble Lord has called "a standing Army, "that is to say for the Volunteer Force, a Standing Transport. I do not see how it could cost less than £10,000, taking it even upon the basis of the £45 each given to the 10 battalions; but whether that is considered a large or a small sum, I am bound to say that in my opinion we should not be justified in asking the country to keep up a Standing Transport Service for the Volunteer Force, because we know that there is an ample supply of both horses and carts in this country which would be forthcoming in the event of any attempt at invasion; and from the experience of the Military Authorities, it is believed that that transport could be adequately organised in the time within which it would be necessary for it to be organised. My Lords, upon those grounds it is, that the scheme for testing the supply of transport in the cases mentioned by the noble Lord has not been pursued, and as regards the scheme for contracting for the supply of carts out-and-out, that has been rendered unnecessary by the passing of the National Defence Act. But it is obviously a very great advantage, as pointed out in one of the letters, that Commanding Officers should keep a register of the carts and horses suitable for this purpose in their neighbourhood, because in the event of emergency, those are the carts and horses which we should be able to obtain and

  49
  organise for transport purposes if they were wanted. I do not think from what I have heard from the Military Authorities that there is any necessity for establishing a Volunteer Transport Service; but such a register to be kept by Commanding Officers as is proposed in the War Office Circular would be of great value. I think it is very possible as the noble Lord has said, that we have not received from the Volunteers the last demand that will be made upon the country's purse in order to make provision for their equipment; but I am glad to hear the noble Lord acknowledge that the last grant made has been an assistance to them. My Lords, I can only say that whenever we think it is essential that the Volunteer Force should be assisted by schemes of a tentative nature such as those which have been brought under your notice by the noble Lord to-night, we shall most certainly carry them out in order to increase the efficiency of the Volunteer Force; but where we do not think they are absolutely essential we certainly decline to put the taxpayers to increased expense.

AUDIT (ARMY AND NAVY ACCOUNTS) BILL.(No. 164.)
Read 3a (according to order), and passed.
House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.