Lords Sitting of 22 March 1888

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Consolidated Fund (No. 1) *; National Debt (Conversion) * (49).
Second Reading—Merchant Shipping (Life-Saving Appliances) (43).
Third Reading—Law of Distress Amendment (44), and passed.

LAW OF DISTRESS AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 44.)
(The Lord Herschell.)
LAW OF DISTRESS AMENDMENT BILL.—(No. 44.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Lord Herschell.)
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, the intention of the Bill was to put the landlord in the same position as other creditors. But the effect of this would be to take away from the tenant
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  the credit on which, at present, he could rely. The result would be that the tenant would either have to pay in advance or would have his rent raised. He did not intend to oppose the Bill; but he wished to call attention to the direction in which legislation was now going.
  LORD HERSCHELLsaid, that he would not have introduced the Bill unless he had received assurances of its usefulness from those who were better able to judge of the matter than himself, and those who had a practical acquaintance with the question had assured him that it was likely to be advantageous, since the present system combined the maximum of hardship to the tenant with the minimum of advantage to the land-lord, because when the tools of a skilled workman were sold they generally fetched very little, while the workman was deprived of his means of working.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly; Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

MERCHANT SHIPPING (LIFE-SAVING APPLIANCES) BILL.—(No. 43.)
(The Earl of Onslow.)
MERCHANT SHIPPING (LIFE-SAVING APPLIANCES) BILL.—(No. 43.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (The Earl of ONSLOW)in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, observed that the subject of the better preservation of life at sea was one which had already engaged the attention of Parliament, and a Royal Commission had been appointed to inquire into the whole subject. That Commission had dealt with the subject in a far more comprehensive manner than he now proposed to do in the present Bill. A Bill had also been introduced last year in "another place" which had been referred to a Select Committee. That Bill bad dealt exclusively with the provision of boats and life-saving apparatus, and it was upon the Report of that Committee that the provisions of the present Bill were mainly founded. The subject had also aroused the attention of some of our Colonies, and representations had been made by the Governments of Tasmania, Queensland, and Victoria, to the effect that legislation should be initiated by the Imperial Parliament, in consequence of which the question had been discussed at the Colonial Conference. At the present time ships were divided into two classes; the first being "passenger ships"—namely, those only which carried emigrants, and other ships, which meant all ships, whether they carried passengers or cargo, provided they did not carry emigrants. The Passengers Act, 1855, provided that every passenger ship should carry a number of boats in proportion to her tonnage. A ship of under 200 tons was to carry two boats, under 400 three boats, under 600 four boats, under 1,000 five boats, and under 1,500 tons six boats; while a ship of over 1,500 tons, whatever might be her size, was only obliged to carry seven boats, no matter what amount of passengers she carried. It was also necessary to carry four lifebuoys only. Whether a ship carried passengers or not, under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, she was obliged to carry the necessary complement of boats according to the scale
  4
  if she cleared from any port in the United Kingdom; if she did not, there was no compulsion to carry any life-saving apparatus whatever. Owing to the fact that that Act made demands far in excess of the actual requirements of the case, it had become practically a dead letter. By law a vessel could not be obliged to carry more than seven life-boats. In 1873 power had been given to the Board of Trade to relieve shipowners who did not carry more than 12 passengers by diminishing the number of boats they were obliged to carry. It was not a general complaint that the large well-found steamers were insufficiently supplied with life-saving apparatus. If they took the Cunard steamers—for instance, the Etruria—the captain of that ship gave evidence that she carried, on the average, 1,000 persons; that she had 14 large boats capable of carrying 800, with 1,207 life-belts, one in each state room for every passenger, carried overhead in racks. Besides this there were bulkhead doors which were closed every day all through the ship by the chief engineer in his department and by the chief officer in the sailing department. All boats were lowered every Friday in Liverpool before they sailed; the boats were sent away from the ship manned; if there was any wind they sailed; if not, they were pulled; the boats were all ready for sea use, and all the 12 or 14 boats could be lowered into the water in the space of two minutes, and they were also provisioned with water. In the City of New York, lately launched, additional life-saving apparatus was provided in the shape of a false bottom, so that if one bottom was stove in the ship would still have the false one to keep the water out. Similar precautions in regard to boats were taken on board the steamers running between Calais and Dover, and Folkestone and Boulogne. But in short voyage ships, taking the average of 50 ships leaving the Port of Liverpool, the legal requirement of boat accommodation was found to be 7·6 per cent of the passengers carried; but the actual percentage was 10·6, and in those boats which crossed the Irish Channel the legal requirement was 13·1 and the actual percentage 16·1. There were life jackets for the crew only. But life-saving apparatus for only 10 or 16 per cent was very inadequate. These requirements

  5
  were based upon the tonnage of a ship and not on the number of passengers, and the tonnage of ships was very different from what it used to be owing to the deductions now made from the gross tonnage. He knew of a case where the tonnage from 300 gross had by various reductions been reduced to 6 not, and therefore the life-saving apparatus which the ship would be required to carry would be almost nil. It was also necessary to see that the apparatus was in a state of efficiency. Great complaints had been made on the part of seamen going to sea in cargo ships, not of the amount of boat accommodation provided, but on account of the state of that accommodation. There had been a case not long ago of a man falling overboard and being afloat for 25 minutes; they had been three-quarters of an hour before they got a boat over the side for the want of proper davits. The evidence was to the effect that the boat was on the after-house, turned upside down. They had to turn the boat over; and, finally, a sea had lifted her off the tackles and she had broken in two. At present the Surveyors of the Board of Trade were not empowered to go on board to inspect the life-saving apparatus; they could only inspect crew spaces, lights, and fog signals, unless they were Inspectors also, which they rarely were. Since 1875 the Board of Trade had only obtained four convictions against owners for want of proper boat accommodation and want of efficient life-saving appliances. It might be said that the most efficient mode of saving life at sea was to keep the vessel afloat by means of bulkheads; but, in dealing with these matters, we must not attempt to overweight the Bill, competition with foreign shipping was so keen. The value of boats for saving life was very great, notwithstanding the present inadequate provision. In the period of nine years between 1876 and 1885, of 135,273 lives which had been exposed to loss by wreck, 60,231 were actually saved by the ships' own boats, that was nearly two-thirds of the 109,745 saved, and nearly half of the whole lives that needed saving. We had lost on or near the coast 6,629 lives in the same period. We had fortunately saved 34,602 lives in the nine years, but by far the greatest proportion—namely, 14,807, had been saved by the ships'
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  own boats. The Bill would provide for a new departure in this legislation. The Government thought that those who were primarily interested had already endeavoured in some measure to do their duty. On the lines crossing the Atlantic and the Channel adequate provision far exceeding what was required by law had been made, and he thought we should be meeting the requirements of all concerned if we invited the owners and others interested to advise as to how this life-saving apparatus might be provided. First of all, there were the shipowners, then there were the shipbuilders, then the practical navigators, then the able seamen, and, lastly, the underwriters at Lloyd's. The Bill proposed that a Committee, composed of three of each of these classes, should be formed ad hoc for the purpose of classifying the different kinds of vessels, and then of making rules with regard to the life-saving apparatus to be carried by each. These rules would be subject to the approval of the Board of Trade, and would be laid upon the Table of that and the other House of Parliament, so that Parliament would have an opportunity of judging whether they would be efficient or not. As to inspection, any Surveyor or other person appointed by the Board of Trade might give notice to an owner that a ship should not clear if there was any deficiency. He did not claim that the result of this measure would be absolute immunity as regarded loss of life at sea; but he trusted that it would reduce the risks, and provide some remedy for a state of the law which was at present extremely anomalous and not suited to the requirements of the times. The boat scales in the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, and Passengers Act, 1855, were framed upwards of 30 years ago to meet a different state of things than now existed. At that time nearly the whole of the passenger traffic was carried on by wooden sailing ships of about 1,200 to 1,509 tons burden. The boat scales were framed on the basis of the ship's registered tonnage, which, in those days of sailing ships, gave a very good idea of the vessel's size and of her capabilities for stowing boats, &c.; but now the sailing ships had entirely given place to iron or steel steamships of two or three times their size. Every merchant seaman on the North-East Coast was in favour of men

  7
  being provided with life-bolts. He ventured to hope that the rules to be made by this Committee would be welcomed and cheerfully observed by all the interests concerned, and that, if these expectations were fulfilled, it might be possible to extend still further the principle of inviting all the interests affected by other such matters to unite in deciding what restrictions should be laid upon them for their common good. He begged to move the second reading of the Bill.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Onslow.)
  LORD COTTESLOEsaid, he heartily supported the principle of the Bill, which he earnestly hoped might conduce to the saving of life at sea. He would also suggest that, in accordance with the recommendation of the Committee, something should be done to require the use of oil in cases of storm and shipwreck.
  THE EARL or RAVENSWORTHsaid, that the object of the Bill was one which every man would approve, and he entirely agreed with the noble Lord who had moved the second reading that the present law was most unsatisfactory. It was more—it was extremely anomalous, and in some of its provisions almost absurd. But he wished to say that there was no class of men in this country who were more anxious to save life than the shipowners, and he was not in the least ashamed to tell their Lordships that the conviction had been forced upon his mind that, of all the traders of this country, the most capable of conducting their business were the shipowners. He regarded, therefore, with some degree of suspicion, or at least of jealousy, all those attempts to teach men a business which they knew much better than the Legislature. By Clause 2 the President of the Board of Trade, for the time being, was authorized to appoint a Consultative Committee to assist him in this particular matter. There were to be three representatives of each class concerned on that council, the selection of whom was to be left absolutely in the hands of the President of the Board of Trade. Now this council ought to consist of the most competent men in the country; but the most competent men had so much to do at home that they would be prevented from coming up to London, and waiting on the President of the Board of Trade
  8
  to teach him his business. He was much afraid that the persons who would be left to select from would be gentlemen who had nothing else to do, and who would be very glad of a run to London, at the public expense, if they had the opportunity. He thought that question would require considerable threshing out on the next stage of the Bill. He would further point out that what the Bill required to be done was practically done now by all the best shipowners in the country. Interference with a great industry should be confined to a minimum, and only to such matters as were absolutely necessary to protect life. The next point he wished to refer to was Clause 5, which provided for the inspection of ships for the purpose of enforcing the rules made by the Bill. That inspection was to be undertaken by a Surveyor appointed under the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854, or any such other person as the President of the Board of Trade might appoint. Those words seemed to him very much too wide, and ought to be altered by adding some such words as "properly qualified." He had ventured to make these few remarks preparatory to the next stage of the Bill, because he thought it was only fair to point out defects in the Bill on the second reading, so that the Government might have an opportunity of considering them before the Committee stage was reached.
  LORD SUDELEYsaid, he entirely agreed with the noble Earl who had introduced the Bill that the present state of the law was most anomalous. It was most important not to take the responsibility away from the shipowners, and that whore ships were not well found there should be some regulations which would show what was desirable for saving life at sea. He agreed with the noble Earl who spoke last that the Consultative Committee should be composed of thoroughly practical men, but he could not but believe that the President of the Board of Trade would do his best to attain that object. It was shown in a discussion that place in that House some years ago that throwing oil on the water immediately around a ship had a very beneficial effect. He thought that if to every lifebuoy a bag of oil was attached much good might be done. When the buoy was thrown into the water the oil would trickle out, and

  9
  there could be no doubt that that would smooth the water for some distance round the buoy. He thought that was a point worth consideration by the Board of Trade. He was extremely glad the Government had taken up this matter, and he sincerely hoped the Bill would be passed almost in its present shape.
  LORD STANLEY or PRESTONsaid, that as he had something to do with the earlier stages of the Bill he should like to say a word in support of it. He thought his noble Friend who had introduced the Bill with such a clear and able statement must be satisfied with the reception it had met with at the hands of their Lordships. No doubt, the Bill dealt with two very important questions. In the first place, it revised the boat scale; and, in the next place, it contained a provision by which the Board of Trade would be brought in future more directly in touch with some of the commercial interests. It had been said that the Board of Trade had been indifferent to the interests with which it had to deal; but he did not think that was a just accusation. No one who had not been at the Board of Trade could understand the difficulties which surrounded the Office of President, and the vast number of subjects with which he was called upon to deal. The subjects brought under the President's consideration ranged from lighthouses to bankruptcy, and from sea vessels to salmon fishing. It was, therefore, impossible that any man who undertook that Office could have a full knowledge of everything with which he had to deal. The noble Earl (the Earl of Ravensworth) appeared to think that the most competent men of their respective class would not be secured to act on the Consultative Committee. He could not agree with the noble Earl in this view. During his short experience of the Board of Trade he had found gentlemen, at great sacrifice of their valuable time, and often at much inconvenience to their own business, ready on all occasions to come forward freely and frankly to give the Department the benefit of their advice, and he desired to take this opportunity of acknowledging the debt of gratitude under which he lay to those gentlemen. He could well understand the feeling of shipowners towards the Board of Trade, for they certainly had
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  sometimes had a rough time of it. With regard to the method of constituting this Consultative Committee, he thought the mode proposed in the Bill—namely, that of the selection of three names out of nine names submitted by each of the respective bodies—was the best that could be devised. The Bill followed as closely as possible the recommendations of the Committee which sat last year to inquire into the subject, with Lord Charles Beresford as Chairman. The proposal in the Bill for constituting the Consultative Committee was the most practical form of giving effect to the recommendations of the Committee. The noble Earl seemed to make it a point of objection to this Bill that it merely provided for that which all good shipowners already made it a practice to do; but this was an argument in favour of the Bill—namely, that it would merely compel careless shipowners to take the precautions which good shipowners took already. Another excellent point of the Bill was that it aimed at securing its object by prevention rather than by penalty. In proceedings against a shipowner the jury were only too ready to give him the benefit of the doubt, and proceedings after a casualty had occurred were consequently found not to be effective. He hoped that this experiment of appointing a Consultative Committee to assist the Board of Trade would be followed in regard to other matters, but to appoint a general Consultative Council to assist the Board of Trade in regard to all its operations would be quite illusory, for men of great experience on some matters might be asked to express an opinion on others of which they had no especial knowledge. The appointment of Consultative Committees ad hoc for the purpose of dealing with the details of particular measures might, however, be very desirable and of great practical utility. Nothing would do more to break down that feeling of antagonism which in certain quarters unfortunately and unjustly existed against the Board of Trade. He was sure his noble Friend in charge of the Bill would give a full and fair consideration to any Amendment which might be brought forward with regard to the details of the Bill, and he believed that the Bill, when passed into law, would prove a most useful measure.
  THE EARL OF HARROWBYsaid, he welcomed the Bill most cordially, for it promised to be very useful and valuable. The most important provision in it was that contained in the 2nd clause, which, for the first time, established a Consultative Committee to assist the Board of Trade. There was much to be said in favour of such a Committee, but there was the danger attached to this proposal that it might diminish the responsibility of the Minister at the head of the Department. The matter required to be carefully watched. It would probably be a good plan if a Committee ad hoc were appointed whose views the Minister could consult, and after consulting whom he might form his own opinion, but the full responsibility of that opinion ought to rest upon him. He desired also to point out that in the case of the rules to be drawn up, and which were to be laid on the Table 40 days before they came into operation, it ought to be provided that the 40 days should only commence to run from the time that they were in print and circulated. He had known cases in which rules were laid on the Table in dummy, and the printed rules were only circulated 30 days after. This made the control of the House almost illusory.
  THE EARL OF ONSLOWsaid, that the suggestions made by the noble Earl who had just sat down and by other noble Lords who had spoken would be very carefully considered. In answer to the suggestion that the proposed Committee would weaken the authority and responsibility of the President of the Board of Trade, he would point out that then, as at the present time, he would make the rules, and would be responsible to Parliament for them.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.

AGRICULTURAL AND DAIRY SCHOOLS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD NORTON, in rising to ask the Lord President, Whether the Government contemplate taking any steps this Session on the Report of the Departmental Commission on Agricultural and Dairy Schools? said, that the proposal in the Report lacked definition and limit. It was, however, large enough in its outline, although it was called only a commencement. The proposal
  12
  was that there should be a Central Normal School of Agriculture, to be provided and maintained by the State; that existing endowed schools for the middle class should be utilized for teaching practical farming; that agricultural schools originated by local effort should be stimulated and assisted by Government aid for labourers, tenant farmers, and ethers; that district schools in selected districts, of various kinds, five in England and two in Scotland, should be at once set up under the control of the Central Department, and in the management of district committees; that gardens, allotments, and farms should be connected with rural elementary schools for the study of the principles of agriculture, scholarships of £50 a-year each being given to boys and girls who should pass the Sixth Standard in them; that district dairy schools should be established, and endowed with £500 a-year each, besides special grants for buildings and apparatus; that an annual grant of £3,000 should be put at the disposal of the Agricultural Department for original agricultural research; that diplomas from the Central School should be given for the highest qualification, which in agricultural studies was to include forestry, gardening, fruit-growing, poultry, and bee-keeping, besides all ordinary farm work; and in dairy studies was to include the rearing and feeding of stock, and making cheese. Such was the outline for commencement, and for the purpose it was not too large. But the question was whether the State could do all this best. South Kensington did not seem to him to be the true fountain of practical agricultural skill. Much was being done at the present time which State undertaking would supersede. The school in Cumberland was acknowledged to be a success, although the result of private enterprize. Then there was Cirencester, which was said to be too expensive for small farmers, but the scholarships and exhibitions of £100 a-year which this Report proposed would fully open it to their use. Evening classes were also being established for this purpose in country districts. Those actually engaged and interested in the advance of technical knowledge were everywhere making better provision for special apprenticeship than the doctrinaires of Government Departments could possibly make by State schools

  13
  within definite programmes. At most, the State ought to provide central training for teachers, and exhibitions to aid poor talent. There was already on the Estimates a proposal to give £5,000 to begin the work recommended by the Commission, and a promise had been made of a Bill for a Minister of Agriculture. A Department of Agriculture under the Council Office existed in Parliament Street, and in connection with the Local Government Bill more shadowy forms of coming aid appeared. Some clearer indication should be given of what was intended before steps were taken which would make mistake irremediable.
  EARL SPENCERasked, when the Government proposed to lay on the Table the Evidence on which the Report of the Departmental Commission was founded? It seemed to him important that they should have the Evidence before they considered the recommendations made in the Report, as there were many points that required to be elucidated by the Evidence.
  LORD VERNONsaid, he was glad of an opportunity to express the gratitude that a considerable section of the agricultural community felt for the patience and consideration Her Majesty's Government had evinced in dealing with all matters relating to the industry in which they were interested. Commissions had been appointed to inquire into every subject that had been suggested as a possible remedy for the existing depression, which, although the agriculturist had exercised his prerogative of grumbling at, was, as the noble Marquess told them on Monday, not unique to this country, or confined to this one branch of industry, most departments of trade having suffered in a like ratio. The subject of State-aided agricultural education had been an almost unknown thing in this country up to the present time. The Commission of which Sir Richard Paget was the Chairman recommended that dairy schools should be assisted by funds to carry on their operations, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer very wisely remarked that he must be convinced of the utility of such schools before he assented to grants being given them. By that, presumably, he meant their utility from a national point of view. In order to convince the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Commission quoted as a re-
  14
  markable instance of what education hail done for Denmark, her imports of butter to this country having increased from 80,589 cwt. in 1867 to 210,322 cwt. in 1877, and to 487,603 cwt. in 1887. But this increase might be accounted for by studying the prices realized, which were as follows:—104 s. per cwt. in 1867, 128 s. in 1877, and 109 s. in 1887. No doubt that 104 s. in 1867 paid the Danish farmer. When, therefore, the price rose to 128 s. in 1877, it showed an undue margin of profit, and stimulated him to further efforts, and the production had increased in proportion. But the question was if there were many farmers who would be satisfied with such a price for their butter on the average of 12 months, except in the most primitive districts, and if the dairy produce made in England was of an inferior character to that imported from Denmark or elsewhere—if this were proved, then, indeed, we had reason to inquire what could be done to raise the standard of home-made goods; but even in that case it rested with the landowners to improve the produce of their estates. If we were living under a system of peasant proprietors—or even as in Denmark, where the soil was greatly subdivided owing partly to the state of the law, which interdicted the union of small farms into large estates, but encouraged in various ways the parcelling out of landed property, and left the tenant entire control of his land so long as the rent was paid—it might be advisable to aid those who were unable to acquire the knowledge necessary for obtaining the best return from their holdings. But with large estates and well-organized, powerful agricultural societies, such as the Royal Agricultural Society, with 9,000 members, and subscriptions amounting to £9,000 annually, it did seem unnecessary to subsidize new schools. As Professor Wrightson observed last week, in the Paper he read before the Society of Arts, the paternal principle of government had never found favour in England. Almost everything in the way of advancement was left to private and corporate enterprize, and the results of this system of self-help had been magnificent. Further on he said—
  "Dairy farmers, the men above all others singled out for assistance, have been exceptionally fortunate. No class of men have progressed more rapidly with the times. They have wiped out the obloquy of a few years ago with regard to the alleged inferiority of their butter and cheese,

  15
  and these English products are once more equal, if not superior, to those imported from Denmark, Brittany, and Normandy."
  With this opinion and the evidence gained from the Agricultural Returns, it would be absurd to say that dairy farmers had not made great strides of late years in Great Britain; and they would undoubtedly continue to do so on those estates where the tenants were not paralyzed by too heavy payments of rent, tithe, and taxes. If, however, they were overburdened with charges of this description, they would be unable to hold their own when brought into competition with the whole world, and no amount of State-aided education would achieve the desired result—that of enabling them to pay such an interest on their capital as would satisfy their requirements. In conclusion, he would urge on Her Majesty's Government, if they saw the advisability of acceding to the recommendations of the Commission, not to enter into the speculation suggested of buying a 200-acre farm near Rugby for, say, £12,000, but to hand over the money to the Royal Agricultural Societies of England, Scotland, and Ireland, to be utilized by them in disseminating dairy knowledge throughout the entire Kingdom, a course not involving the present or any succeeding Government in an obligation to continue such grants, and one that would from the past history of those societies assure the money being expended for the benefit of practical agriculture.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK)said, that the special knowledge which was known to be possessed by the noble Lord who had just spoken would induce their Lordships to attach great weight to his observations. With respect to the Question that was put by the noble Lord behind him, he felt some difficulty in answering it. A Question had been put in the other House, and the Government intimated that a Minister of Agriculture was to be appointed, if Parliament should sanction it, with whom it would naturally rest to determine what should be done in the matter. As Head, at present, of the Department charged with the interests of agriculture, he might say that, even without adopting the suggestions of the Commission as embodied in their Report, he still felt that there would be many
  16
  opportunities, in the course of the present year, of rendering assistance to some extent in aid of local effort, and in consonance with the principle of self-help which the noble Lord opposite had just commended. He regretted very much that the two Reports had not been accompanied by the Evidence. It was in print, but he could not say how soon it would be laid before the House. He would, however, take steps to ascertain how soon it could be produced, because it was very desirable that those who took a special interest in the matter should be cognizant of the Evidence which had been laid before the Commission. It would be observed that in that Commission, as in many others, a good many leading questions were put, which showed pretty clearly the bias which suggested them. When witnesses had a pecuniary subsidy dangled before their eyes, it was not to be expected that they should have the moral courage of the noble Lord opposite and say they would rather not have it. There were some who, to a certain extent, did so; but it would be found that some of those who managed dairies skilfully and with success fully appreciated the value of their own excellent practice. Many inquiries had been made of him by deputations and others upon this subject. A large deputation from Scotland had asked that whatever assistance was given should be extended equitably to that country, and had urged that too much importance was attached to dairies in comparison with other branches of agriculture. Indeed, they said that the least depressed interest was that of dairy farming, and that other departments of agriculture required more teaching and more assistance than dairy farming, while they by no means desired to check any support to that calling. There had not been much done in the way of practical teaching in connection with the Science and Art Department. A certain amount was expended from year to year; but it was mainly upon what might be called theoretical teaching and book learning rather than practical agriculture. There was a time when there was in this country agricultural instruction connected with elementary schools; but it was done away with, because it was found that it interfered with the gaining of grants for general education. In agricultural districts boys left the ele-

  17
  mentary schools at an early age, and it was necessary that they should in early youth acquire a knowledge of horses and other animals, and that was knowledge of a more practical kind than they could acquire by gardens or allotments in the neighbourhood of a school. It might be desirable to provide by small scholarships for assisting some boys to obtain a more scientific knowledge of the business in which they were to be employed. But, after all, he could not help thinking that for the bulk of the lads the best instruction in agriculture would be instruction gained on the land itself. It was impossible in schools, except, perhaps, in evening schools, to gain time for special instruction, and it was to the farmers we must look to train the boys they required to do their work. He had heard that an agricultural school had been recently set up in Glasgow for the training of young farmers. Those were assisted by landlords, and considerable numbers attended the classes from a distance. That seemed to him the right sort of beginning. He could not hold out any hope that anything would be done in the way of distinct State foundations during the present year. The so called Agricultural Department were not in a position at present to make the inquiries which would be necessary for an undertaking of such magnitude. He might mention that the Veterinary part of the Department of the Council had met with an approbation throughout the country which was almost remarkable, considering the very unpleasant duties which it had to discharge in enforcing the law with regard to diseased cattle, and endeavouring to prevent the spread of infection. With regard to the Agricultural Department more recently set up, it had been proceeding by degrees; but strong representations had been made to him that it was very desirable there should be greater strength infused into it; and he was of opinion that it needed it. The Department was beginning to attract a great deal of attention throughout the country; and he might promise on its behalf that the representations in question would be carefully considered. He trusted that the agriculturists would succeed in deriving substantial benefit from the new Ministry if established. Practically, his answer amounted to this. He believed the Department would re-
  18
  ceive from the Chancellor of the Exchequer this year a sum which would be expended in obtaining information as to the real needs of the country, and in giving assistance, as far as possible, to local efforts in testing the advantages which might be derived from the present condition of teaching in this country. The Department did not hold out the expectation that the State was going to do everything; but if the localities showed that they were really in need of assistance by taking steps themselves, the Department would be prepared to assist them this year with a view to further action if, with sufficient knowledge, it was found desirable to go further in the matter.

THE CHESHIRE CONSTABULARY— COMPENSATION TO POLICE—CONSTABLES COOPER AND PROUDLOVE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether they have taken any steps to secure reward or compensation to two police officers named Cooper and Proudlove for the very serious injuries received by them from a gang of thieves near Bowden Station? The circumstances which gave rise to his Question were that a gang of poachers, finding the night too light to go after rabbits, had stolen 17 geese from a farmyard pond. Information had been given to the police, and two officers went after the thieves. They took refuge in a railway but; but, finding there were only three policemen, they said—"Let us go out and murder them." Accordingly, they went out and so battered the heads of Sergeant Cooper and Police-constable Proudlove that for some time their lives were despaired of. Two men were put on their trial for this affair; one got six months, the other proved an alibi. Two other men were tried on the 7th of this month, at Chester, for feloniously wounding the two police officers, and both got eight years' penal servitude. These police officers had shown great courage in pursuing so large a number of thieves, and he thought the Government might well go out of its way to show its approbation of their conduct. He asked the attention of the Government to the fact that in Cheshire and the adjoining couuties, with the exception of the

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  district round Liverpool, of late years the gangs of marauders had increased in number and in lawlessness, and he dated this increase from the time Sir William Harcourt occupied the Home Office. It was not owing alone or so much to his speeches at the time of passing the Hares and Rabbits Bill, though those, no doubt, had contributed to this result; but the encouragement to lawlessness and violence which he and his Friends had given in Ireland had had their bad effects in this country also.
  THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (Earl BROWNLOW): The Government have received a Report from the Chief Constable of Cheshire, from which it appears that these two police officers received very serious injuries while endeavouring to arrest a gang of men who were stealing geese on the night of November 5, 1887. The policemen appear to have displayed great courage and British pluck in the encounter which took place, and I have great pleasure in bearing testimony to their bravery. At the same time, I must point out that it is for the Court of Quarter Sessions, and not for the Government, to take such steps as they think proper to secure reward or compensation to members of the County Police Force, where, in the opinion of the Court, special gallantry has been displayed or serious injuries received in the discharge of their ordinary duties.

HIGH SHERIFFS.

  MOTION FOR A SELECT COMMITTEE.
  Moved, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the mode of appointment, the duties, and the obligations of the high sheriffs of counties, and to report."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF TUE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK)said, he had great pleasure in acceding to the Motion on the part of the Government.
  Motion agreed to.

PRIVATE BILL LEGISLATION.
Joint Committee with the Committee of the House of Commons appointed to examine into the present system of Private Bill legislation, and to report how far and in what manner, without prejudice to public interests, that system may be modified with a view to the interests of suitors, the economy of the time of Parliament, and the reduction of costs and charges: The Lords following were named of the Committee:
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E. Bathurst.

L. Colville of Culross.

L. Balfour of Burley.

L. Stalbridge.

L. Monk Bretton.

L. Kensington.

Ordered, That such Committee have power to agree with the Committee of the Commons in the appointment of a chairman.

POOR LAW RELIEF.
Select Committee on: The Lords following were named of the Committee:

L. Abp. Canterbury.

V. Gordon (E. Aberdeen).

E. Spencer

E. Milltown.

L. Balfour.

E. Onslow.

L. Hopetoun (E. Hopetoun).

E. Stratford.

E. Kimberley.

L. Thing.

The Committee to meet To-morrow at Three o'clock, and to appoint their own Chairman.

NATIONAL DEBT (CONVERSION) BILL.
Read 1a to be printed; and to be read 2a To-morrow; and Standing Order No. XXXV. to be considered in order to its being dispensed with.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.) (No. 49.)
House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter
past Ten o'clock.