Lords Sitting of 2 March 1888

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Church Discipline * (27); Ecclesiastical Procedure * (28).
Second Reading—Lunacy Acts Amendment (22).
Select Committee—Truro Cathedral Fabric and Services (3); Lord Ker (Marquess of Lothian) added; Lord Magheramorne disch.

HOUSE OF LORDS—CONSTITUTION OF THE HOUSE.
  WITHDRAWAL OF MOTION.
  THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN: It may be convenient if I state to your Lordships that I do not intend to bring forward the Motion which stands in my name for Tuesday next, relating to the constitution of this House, but that I intend, with the permission of the House, to bring in a Bill dealing with the subject as soon as possible.
TECHNICAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1887.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD NORTON, in rising to ask the Secretary for Scotland, What steps have been taken preparatory to the Technical Instruction Act for Scotland coming into operation; whether there has been any expression of public opinion for or against it; and, if he will present to the House any instructions which may have been sent out from his Department on the subject? said, the Technical Instruction Act for Scotland was passed in the midnight hours at the fag end of last Session. A similar Bill for England was postponed, but now it was about immediately to be revived. It seemed to him, however, of the greatest importance that before they came to consider the English Bill, they should know what steps were being taken, or were found to be necessary, to bring the Scottish Act into operation, and how, in fact, the Scottish people looked upon the Act

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  with which they were now for the first time brought face to face. He considered that the Scottish Act was preferable to the English Bill in this respect, that it put the establishment and maintenance of these schools into the hands of the existing school boards; whereas the English Bill proceeded to constitute a new and additional Agency of Public Instruction—namely, the Local Authorities. But both the Scottish Act and the English Bill agreed in this very great defect—that they gave no definition whatever of what was meant by technical instruction, except that it was to be anything or everything that from time to time the Department of Science and Art might choose to give grants for. He really wanted to know how that very shrewd nation, the Scotch, looked upon an Act which was to give this indefinite, unlimited power of public educational undertaking and taxation? He had no wish to dispute what he believed they were all agreed upon—that some improvement of technical instruction for our artizans was much to be desired; but the more important it was, the more they should take care that the best means were taken to secure the object in view. He had no doubt there were some manufacturers—but, certainly, they were far from being all, and he would say they did not include the most enterprizing—who would be very happy to have better apprentices trained for them at public expense. There were many of the manufacturers of this country who were already providing special instruction for their own workmen. There were also Companies and Institutes and Endowments, which were all increasingly meeting these requirements of education infinitely better than public authorities could. The only question was whether such provision—no doubt the best—could be expected to be sufficient for the requirements of the whole country. At all events, he thought they would be agreed that they should take the greatest possible care that, in enabling public bodies to undertake this work of technical education, they should not check or supersede that which was by far the best mode for the special training of the artizans of this country. If technical schools were intended to undertake training workmen for manufacturers, as in a
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  small way was already being done by the industrial schools for children thrown on the State, they would incur the Protectionist objection to such schools which had been made in America—that they had no right to levy a general tax for particular interests. But if, on the other hand, these technical schools were intended to be strictly confined to the elementary technical instruction which was applicable to all arts and trades, the question then arose whether our higher elementary schools were not already sufficient for the purpose or easily adaptable to it. He was afraid that if the public authorities got this work into their hands, they would very soon aim at something much further—the establishment of national workshops throughout the country. That was not a vain fear, because the danger had already been experienced and protested against by manufacturers in Yorkshire. Technical instruction, undefined as in the Act, would mean to most minds a secondary stage of education; and if only such teaching as design drawing or use of common tools were meant, it should be so distinctly stated. He would be glad if the noble Marquess could tell him whether there was to be a special Code to regulate these technical schools, and if any provision had been made for training masters and teachers specially for these schools. The English Bill proposed to submit the establishment of such schools to a poll of ratepayers under the Ballot Act. If that clause were to be dropped there would be the contrary danger of their establishment without any consultation of the ratepayers. He understood his noble Friend (the Marquess of Lothian) would lay before the House the actual instructions which had been issued from his Department preparatory to these schools coming into operation, and he thought it was essential that they should without delay be put in possession of those instructions before they were called upon to consider the promised Technical Schools Bill for England.
  LORD LAMINGTONsaid, he had to complain that under the Scottish Act of last year, which was an ill-considered and most objectionable measure, the school boards had power to embark in enormous expenditure, and future boards would have no power to check the system

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  they had inaugurated. The old parochial system of Scotland was the admiration of the whole Continent, and he did not think matters had been improved by the establishment of school boards and compulsory education. The Technical Instruction Act did not define anything at all, and he contended that to give such powers it gave to any school boards was to saddle upon the inhabitants any amount of expenses. He thought that Scotland had been over-legislated for in educational matters, and he hoped the noble Marquess had no intention of putting the Act into operation.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN), who was very imperfectly heard, said, he felt some difficulty in answering the two speeches to which their Lordships had just listened, but he would do so as best he could. The noble Lord who asked for the production of Papers (Lord Norton) had asked a number of Questions, to some of which he (the Marquess of Lothian) hoped to be able to give an answer. The Technical Instruction Act not having yet come into operation, he had no experience upon which to give information. But the noble Lord who spoke last (Lord Lamington) objected to the Act altogether. He (the Marquess of Lothian) regretted that the noble Lord had not been present at the midnight hours of last Session, to which allusion had been made, to move the rejection of the Bill. That, it appeared to him, would have been the time to have raised the objections the noble Lord now stated. As to the concluding portion of the noble Lord's remarks, he understood his noble Friend to suggest that he should treat the Act of last year as non-existent. He (the Marquess of Lothian) was not prepared to be so disrespectful to Parliament as to take no notice whatever of an Act that had been passed by both Houses. But the questions raised by the noble Lord (Lord Norton) were not very easy to answer, because his noble Friend seemed to imagine that there were duties pertaining to the Scottish Education Department which did not actually fall on that Department. He asked whether any Code had been prepared by the Scottish Education Department with the view of carrying out the Act of last year? The preparation of a Code to regulate the grants to Technical Schools
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  did not rest with the Scottish Education Department, but with the Department of Science and Art, and the Scottish Education Department had not prepared such a Code. All that Department was empowered to do was simply to show how far it was possible to take action under the Act of last year; and the Circular which had been issued was not, as the noble Lord supposed, in the nature of an instruction, but simply in the nature of a guidance, and for the information of Scottish school boards as to what was possible under the Act, with a view of eliciting from them what they thought would be desirable, and what would be the best means of giving effect to the provisions of the Statute. With reference to the question of apprenticeship, one of the chief reasons why an Act of this kind was desired in Scotland was that the whole system of apprenticeship had been entirely altered by the sub-division of labour and many other causes affecting labour. It was, therefore, desired that some means should be introduced by which young men should receive training, and be enabled to make use of the training which was required. As to the introduction of the Technical Instruction Act into every school, he did not himself believe it would have much effect so far as the elementary schools were concerned. He thought it was rather in the secondary schools that the Act would have most effect. But the principal advantage of the Act would be found in connection with the establishment of evening schools for technical instruction for those who desired it. With regard to the definition of "technical schools," he entirely agreed with his hon. Friend that no practical definition had been given, and anyone who had tried for himself to give a practical definition would have found himself exceedingly puzzled to do so. He had no means of ascertaining at that moment what advantage would be taken of the Act by the people of Scotland, and he did not know how many school boards would take advantage of it. It was impossible at present to go beyond what he had been doing—namely, issuing from the Department a Circular stating what was the view of the Department of the advantages of the Act, and asking the opinions of the school boards and the public upon the form in which it

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  should come into force. If the noble Lord would do him the honour to come to Dover House, he would be most happy to give him all the information in his power, and to answer as far as he could questions that could not be so easily answered in that House. As to laying upon the Table the Circular that had been issued by the Department, he did not think there would be any objection to doing so.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he did not share in the views of the noble Lord opposite (Lord Lamington) as to the legislation of last Session. He asked whether the noble Marquess could tell the House of any school boards in Scotland that bad taken action under the Bill of last year?
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN, in reply, said, that many formalities must be complied with first, and it was quite impossible under the Act for any school board to take advantage of the Act until after the elections; and the whole question must come before the Department before the schools were established.

LUNACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Chancellor.)
LUNACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  (NO. 22.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that there really was nothing to explain with which the House was not already fully acquainted, the Bill having been passed three times through their Lordships' House without any substantial changes. It would be enough to recall shortly the leading points in the Bill, which were—(1) The introduction of a judicial authority for ordering the detention of a person as a lunatic; (2) orders of detention to come to an end unless renewed; (3) protection to medical men and others against vexatious actions where they have acted in good faith; (4) restrictions on opening new private asylums; (5) various amendments with a view to consolidating the Lunacy Laws. It would be remembered that the Bill was accepted by him from the noble and learned Lord (Lord Herschell), to whom it was handed down by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Selborne). While dealing with some subjects of a very
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  delicate and controversial kind, it had been accepted as a valuable measure in all quarters, though, no doubt, regarded as in the nature of a compromise, and not, indeed, going so far as he himself might desire. It had already received very full and careful consideration in their Lordships' House; and having been adopted at some stage of its history by each Party represented in "another place," it might be expected to be received in a like spirit there, If the House should pass the Bill in good time, no blame would attach to the House or the Government if the Bill did not become law in this Session.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, he echoed the wish of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack that the Bill might become law, and that no obstructive tactics "elsewhere" would prevent so important a measure from being added to the Statute Book. He regretted, however, that the Government had not taken steps to put an end to the scandals which were alleged to exist by getting rid of the licensed houses. As long as what Lord Shaftesbury called "the evil system of profit" continued to exist, as long as the incarceration of a fellow-creature in a mad-house should be the source of large profit to anyone, so long might they expect a continuance of the scandals to which he alluded. He noticed, therefore, with regret that existing licensed houses were not to be interfered with. The only way to prevent scandals, as private asylums were to be continued, would be a thorough system of visitation; but the present system could not be thus described, the Lunacy Commissioners being too few in number to inquire closely into the cases of 80,000 lunatics. He strongly advocated the establishment of houses for the reception of paying patients by the Local Authorities. The authorities, he felt sure, would be the gainers. There was a large number of persons in asylums who were supported at the public expense, and who were able to support themselves; and if provision were made for receiving paying patients at moderate rates, the expenditure of the counties might be considerably reduced. However, he did not intend to offer any opposition to the

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  second reading, and hoped that the Bill would not this year be included in the "massacre of the innocents" at the end of the Session.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Friday next.

NAVY—IRON-CLADS ON THE INDIAN STATION.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT MIDLETON, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether it is the fact that there is not a single iron-clad on the Indian Station; and, if so, what steps will be taken for the construction of a dock at Bombay? said, that publicity had recently been given to a statement, which came apparently from a well-informed source, that there was not an iron-clad on the Indian Station, and that this was due to the absence of dock accommodation. The statement might be exaggerated, and, if so, it was desirable it should be corrected, for such statements produced an idea of weakness at home and abroad, which it was undesirable should prevail. We knew that the French had a numerous, if not a powerful, squadron, of the doings of which we had heard a good deal lately; and the Germans had a squadron on the coast of Africa. The French ships at Tonquin were within easy reach of Calcutta and Madras. He did not know whether the French or the Germans had any iron-clads, but it seemed strange that we should leave without the protection of a single ironclad so large a coast and two important coaling stations. As to dock accommodation, we had spent £70,000 at Bombay on a dock available for ships of comparatively small size, but not large enough for anything in the shape of an iron-clad, and scarcely large enough for sea-going cruisers. The only available docks were at Hong Kong, the Cape, and Mauritius, and the passage of ironclads through the Suez Canal was attended with considerable delay and expense. Some years ago there was a scheme for constructing a dock at Bombay, but it fell through, mainly on account of the inability of the Secretary of State for India to provide the necessary funds. He hoped that the same disability would not attach to any such scheme now. He was told that lately instructions had been sent to an engi-
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  neer officer in the Bombay Presidency to prepare plans and sections for the construction of a dock, and he trusted that the work would soon be commenced.
  LORD ELPHINSTONE, in reply, said, it was quite true that we had no iron-clad on the East Indian Station, as the Government considered that neither the requirements of the Service nor those of British commerce necessitated—at present, at any rate—the placing of an iron-clad on that station. The Bacchante, the present flagship, was an iron ship, sheathed with wood and coppered, and was considered by the Admiralty better suited for the requirements of the East Indian Station than an iron-clad—so much so that the Admiralty were deliberately sending another ship of the same class out to relieve her. With regard to the dock accommodation, the Admiralty were fully alive to the necessity of having a clock at Bombay capable of taking in armoured ships, should it be found necessary to place one on that station, and they were in communication with the India Office on the subject. There was a dock at the Mauritius which would take in any of the vessels on the Indian Station with the exception of the flagship, and there were docks at Singapore and the Cape of Good Hope which would take in a second-class iron-clad. In reply to a Question put in the House of Commons, Sir John Gorst had said—
  "Estimates and plans arc being prepared and schemes hare been submitted by the Secretary of State to the consideration of the Admiralty as to providing graving dock accommodation in Bombay Harbour for iron-clads and large mercantile steamers."
  The relative strength of our squadron there compared favourably with that of any foreign Power; and so long as that preponderance was maintained there was no object in strengthening it by the addition of an iron-clad. As compared with the French Squadron in the East Indies, the French had three vessels and three gunboats, mounting 33 guns, as against our 13 ships with 100 guns, independent of two double turret vessels and two gunboats in Bombay Harbour. The noble Lord suggested that the French Squadron from Saigon and Tonquin might make an attack on Calcutta before our ships could be brought round from Bombay. He must point out that Saigon was in China, and

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  that it would be the duty of the Admiral on that station to look after French ships. The French force numbered 11, inclusive of six gun vessels, mounting 56 guns; in addition to which they had 19 small gunboats of 112 to 120 tons, carrying two guns each, in reserve. These small gunboats were, however, for river and harbour service. The British China Squadron numbered 19 vessels, with 121 guns, two of which were iron-clads. As the object of the noble Viscount was to call attention to the want of dock accommodation at Bombay, he could only say it was at present under the consideration of the India Office and the Admiralty.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA. (Viscount CROSS)said, he could not allow a question as to dock accommodation at Bombay to pass without saying one or two words. He felt quite as much as did the noble Lord behind him the absolute necessity of proper dock accommodation at Bombay, and he was happy to say he had every reason to believe that the correspondence between the Admiralty and the India Office was now rapidly drawing to a satisfactory conclusion. Not a moment should be lost on his part, after the matter had been arranged with the Admiralty, in carrying out the works at Bombay, which he held to be necessary for the defence, not only of India, but also of the commerce of the United Empire.
  VISCOUNT SIDMOUTHsaid, he feared that the noble Lord who had answered the Question on behalf of the Government had taken a rose-coloured view of the situation. Some of the dock accommodation mentioned was not of a public character. The Iron Duke, which was not one of the largest vessels, found the greatest; difficulty in docking at Hong Kong, and other vessels had been obliged to go to Nagasaki and other docks belonging to Foreign Powers. We could not always reckon on such accommodation being available. It was preposterous that, with our enormous commerce in the Indian Seas, we should not have dock accommodation for an iron-clad. Mention had been made of two Foreign Powers which had squadrons in these waters, but there was a third which was rapidly increasing its naval strength in the China Seas. He hoped that the Government would lose no time
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  in constructing a proper dock at Bombay, and in giving their serious attention to the insufficiency of the dock accommodation at Hong Kong.

EXTRA ORDINARY TITHE—TITHE RENTCHARGE (EXTRAORDINARY) REDEMPTION ACT, 1886.—QUESTION.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Duke of BUCKINGHAM and CHANDOS)said, it would be in the recollection of their Lordships that in the year 1886 the question of extraordinary tithe received a great deal of notice in consequence of certain occurrences which drew public attention to it. At the same time, a Bill was being passed through Parliament for the settlement of the question, which, no doubt, demanded as early a settlement as possible. Although it was considered that some difficulties might arise in the adjustment of the matter, the Land Commissioners, in their Report last year, said that it was not possible to foresee causes of delay which might arise in carrying out the Act, but that endeavours would be made to bring the work as near completion as possible at the close of the next financial year. They were now approaching the close of the financial year, but as yet there were no signs of the completion of the work. Meanwhile, there had been much difficulty in connection with the collection of tithe, and there were many refusals to pay pending a settlement of the question. As there had been no notification of any progress being made in the matter since the Land Commissioners issued a paragraph a year ago, he ventured to ask the Government, Whether they can inform the House when the Land Commissioners for England are likely to announce their first case of ascertained capital value of extraordinary tithe re Redemption Act, 1886?
EARL BROWNLOW, in reply, said, that the Land Commissioners for England expected to be able to grant certificates of the capital value of extraordinary tithe in certain parishes in the course of the next few days. He might add that further information upon the subject would be found in the last year's annual Report of the Commissioners.

CHURCH DISCIPLINE BILL [H.L.]
A Bill for better enforcing Church discipline—Was presented by The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury; read 1a. (No. 27.)

ECCLESIASTICAL PROCEDURE BILL [H.L.]
A Bill for amending the procedure in ecclesiastical cases touching the doctrine and ritual of the Church of England—Was presented by The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury; read 1a. (No. 28.)
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.