Lords Sitting of 19 June 1888

MINUTES.
SAT FIRST IN, PARLIAMENT—The Lord Hatherton, after the death of his father.
SELECT COMMITTEES—Standing Orders of the House of Lords, nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Victoria University* (163).
Committee—Report—National Debt (Supplemental) (155).
Report—Universities (Scotland) (on re-comm.) (133–165).
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS—First Reading—Local Government (Poor Law) (No. 7)* (164).
Second Reading—Local Government (No. 3)* (139); Local Government (No. 4)* (140); Local Government (Poor Law) (No. 6) * (141); Local Government (Gas)* (142); Tramways (No. 1)* (143).
Report—Elementary Education (Birmingham)* (101).
Third Reading—Local Government (Ireland) (Ballymoney, &c.)* (97); Metropolitan Police* (134), and passed.

UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
(The Marquess of Lothian.)

(No. 133.) REPORT OF AMENDMENTS.
Amendments (on Re-commitment) reported (according to order).
Clause 3 (Definitions).
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN, in moving the omission of the last subsection of the 3rd clause—
"Students' representative council means students' representative council in any University, constituted in such manner as shall be fixed by the Commissioners under this Act,"
said, the Bill proposed to impose on the Commissioners the duty of laying down regulations for the constitution and functions of the Students' Representative Council, and it proceeded to enact by another section that "the Rector may, before he appoints an assessor, confer with the Students' Representative Council." That was to say, the Bill virtually directed the Lord Rector to consult the Students' Representative Council with regard to the appointment of his assessor. That was the only duty imposed on the Representative Council by the Bill. He submitted that it was not desirable to constitute a regularly organized Representative Council of students for that purpose only. It was a very difficult duty to impose on the Commissioners. The undergraduates or students were a fluctuating body. Every few weeks there were changes in their number, and it would be very difficult indeed for the Commissioners to lay down satisfactory rules for organizing them. But, quite apart from that fact, the one duty they were to discharge under this Bill was, perhaps, the duty which, of all others, they were not competent to discharge—namely, to select an assessor who was to be a practical man, who was to assist in managing the property of the University, and who must necessarily have business qualifications. He thought the students, of all bodies they could mention, would have the least facilities of knowing who were the men possessing these qualifications. Further than that, he considered a proposal of this sort was objectionable in principle. It was quite true that the students of the Scottish Universities had enjoyed from time immemorial the privilege of electing their Lord Rector, and no one would think of taking it from

565
them; but here they were proposing to recognize the students as a part of the University, just as much as they recognized the Senatus or the General Council. Such a proposal had never been made with reference to any University in any other part of the world, nor, so far as he knew, up to the present time had any such proposal been made with regard to the Scottish Universities. He hoped the noble Marquess would give some very strong reason for introducing such a change. When he (the Earl of Camperdown) mentioned the matter the other day, the noble Marquess did not on that occasion even allege that any great advantage would be obtained by it. He hoped their Lordships would not sanction this change, because it was urged that it was not likely to do any great harm. The change was one of principle, and if they made it, let them by all means go a great deal further, and say that the Representative Council of the students were to appoint an assessor. Their Lordships would see that hereafter, the body of students having been once recognized, their Representative Council would, no doubt, make claim to be recognized in other matters connected with the discipline of the University. He did not think it was to the advantage of the Scottish Universities that such a principle as this should be introduced. When he was an undergraduate he should have thought this a very improper proposal, and he held the same view of it now.
Amendment moved,
In page 2, line 13, leave out "Students' representative council means a students' representative council in any University, constituted in such manner as shall be fixed by the Commissioners under this Act."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN)admitted that there was a great deal of force in what the noble Earl had said. He also admitted that the principle was a new one. At the same time, he could not help thinking it would be a great advantage if the students were recognized in the fashion proposed by the Bill. The Representative Council had, in his opinion, been productive of great good in the way of promoting order and bringing about a better and higher tone among the students themselves. That,
566
he thought, ought to be encouraged in every way, and he did not see any better way than that which the Bill proposed. The noble Earl said there would be only one duty imposed on the Representative Council. He quite admitted that, but it did not follow, because only one duty was imposed in the Bill, that other and more useful work might not be done by the Council. The sense of responsibility which they would have by statutory recognition like this would have great effect upon such a Body. He could not, therefore, accept the Amendment, and hoped the noble Earl would not press it.
THE EARL OF GALLOWAYsaid, he agreed with his noble Friend opposite that it was a mistake to put the students in this position of being advisers of the Lord Rector in the choice of his assessor. He hoped the noble Marquess would even yet see his way to consent to the omission of the sub-section. He asked whether the word "may" in the clause would not be read as meaning "must?"
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, with regard to the point raised by his noble Friend, he did not think it would have any practical effect if the noble Marquess were to consent to the omission of the sub-section, because, as a matter of fact, an indication had been given by the introduction of the clause in the Bill. He was not arguing whether it was right or wrong to have introduced the clause, but they might depend upon it that, after this, the students would always exact from candidates for the Lord Rectorship a pledge that he should consult them or practically listen to their voice completely in the appointment of his assessor. Therefore, whether they took in the clause or not, the object of the Government, which, he confessed, he did not clearly understand, was at any rate attained. But he was not sure whether, now that the clause was in and likely to remain, it would not be wise to give it an ampler signification. His noble Friend said he thought it a mistake that the Students' Representative Council should be instituted for this purpose alone. He was not sure that he did not agree with him to that extent. He thought the students of the Scottish Universities occupied a position which was not identical with that of undergraduates at the English Universities, and he must say he saw some clear

567
benefit from this clause if they carried it a little further. For the Students' Representative Council simply to give advice as to the appointment of an assessor was evidently a superfluity. It ought to go a great deal further, and he would suggest to the noble Marquess that he might see his way to make it open to the Students' Representative Council to make it one of their functions to be enabled to lay propositions or remonstrances before the University Court. He thought there was some advantage to be gained by the University Court in having that responsible Body to deal with; and, on the other hand, it would to some extent meet the complaints of the students when they had direct access to the University Court. He merely threw this out as a suggestion; but, as regarded the clause, he did not think the objection of his noble Friend would be served by the withdrawal of the sub-sections.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANremarked that he had taken advice as to the meaning of the word "may," and he had been assured it did not mean "must." It was simply a direction to the Lord Rector that he might, if he chose, take the advice of the Students' Representative Council in the appointment of his assessor. The Rector was not constantly in attendance at the University Court, and his assessor represented him, and through him the students. If the Rector's assessor were nominated through any other source than directly through himself or the Students' Representative Council, he could not be directly representative of the students. Therefore he thought it desirable to retain the sub-section.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he saw a great difference between the word "may" and the word "must;" and, unless he was misreported, the Lord Advocate stated to a deputation of Scottish students that "may" in this clause meant "must."
Lord WATSONsaid, he thought the word "may" was permissive; but, practically, it would be imperative on everyone who desired to be elected Lord Rector by the vote of the students. He agreed with other noble Lords in thinking that the Students' Representative Councils should have some other function than that proposed in this Bill, and he believed their grievance would be met
568
by following out the suggestions of the noble Earl (the Earl of Rosebery), and giving them the same right to make representations which the General Council had under the Act of 1858.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 5 (University Courts).
LORD WATSON, in moving to substitute, in the case of each University Court, the following as the representation of the affiliated Colleges for that proposed in the Bill:—
"Such number of representatives of affiliated colleges, not exceeding four, as may be appointed under and subject to, the arrangements made in terms of section 14, sub-section of this Act,"
said, these Amendments were consequential on the clause which the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Rosebery) proposed to add to Section 15, and which, he understood, the noble Marquess was prepared to accept. The noble Marquess had an Amendment on the Paper which would still make it imperative that representatives of the affiliated Colleges should sit as members of the University Courts for all purposes whatever. He (Lord Watson) thought that ought to be avoided if possible. Under the new clause to be proposed by the noble Earl these matters were left to the agreement of the parties under regulations to be framed by the Commissioners. Then he thought the Legislature ought not to devolve on the Commissioners the duty of saying what should be the number and limit of the University Court. They ought to lay down a limit within which the University Court might determine the mode of appointment and the character of the representation. He had selected the limit of four. Already there was a limit fixed in the Bill in the case of the teachers of the University, and he would take as an illustration the University of Edinburgh, where four representatives were given to 40 Professors and upwards of 3,000 students. However sanguine their expectations might be as to the operation of Section 15, he did not think anyone would suggest that within the next century or half-century there would come into the University, under the provisions of that clause, a body of Professors or of students of that size.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he was quite willing to accept the Amendment, and thought the statement he had made would show that—at any rate for a long time to come—the numbers proposed would be sufficient.
Amendment agreed to.
LORD WATSONsaid, he proposed to move to amend the clause further, in order to provide that, instead of one assessor retiring and one being elected annually, two assessors should retire and two be elected once every two years. The cost of an election was as much for one assessor as for two, and would amount he believed, to £300 or £400 for the four Universities.
Amendment moved,
In page 4 line 39, to leave out the words "one such assessor shall retire from office in each year," and insert, "two such assessors shall retire from office every two years."—(The Lord Watson.)
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he hoped the noble and learned Lord would not press the Amendment. He believed the cost did not amount to anything like what was stated, but that, on the contrary, it did not exceed £60. He knew a different view was held by the Senatus, but, looking to the fact that the University Councils were the persons mostly interested, as he had received no remonstrance from them as to the clause as it stood, he could not agree to the Amendment.
Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6 (Powers of University Court).
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that Sub-section 3 vested in the University Court the power of reviewing decisions arrived at by the Senatus. He asked the noble Marquess if he did not think some limit of time should be fixed for objections, because otherwise objections might be raised at very inconvenient dates?
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANagreed that it was desirable to fix some limit. Perhaps the noble Earl would suggest one.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he would consider the point.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 8 (General Council).
On the Motion of the Earl of CAMPERDOWN, Amendment made in page 7, line 41, by leaving out ("ten") and inserting ("twenty").
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 14 (Powers of Commissioners).
Amendment moved, to add the following as a new sub-section:—
"The making provision for payment to the Senatus Academicus of such annual sums as may be required to enable every body to perform its statutory functions."—(The Lord Watson.)
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he thought the Amendment was unnecessary.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNhoped the noble Marquess would, on further consideration, accept the Amendment.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he also hoped the noble Marquess would find it convenient to carry out the principle of the Amendment. Unless the provision were put in that form, the Senatus would simply receive a fixed sum provided by the Commission at the time, whereas it ought to be a changeable and adaptable sum.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANadmitted that the principle was a right one, and his impression was that the power existed in the Bill. As, however, there appeared to be some doubt about the matter, he would consider the point before the third reading.
Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
Clause agreed to.
Clause 15 (Extension of the Universities).
Amendment moved, to insert the following additional sub-section:—
"To make arrangements, where it shall seem requisite, for the due representation of the University Court in the governing body of affiliated colleges, and of the governing body of affiliated colleges in the University Court, having regard to the circumstances of each particular case, to the relative numbers in the University and the college of the teaching staff, and of students proceeding to graduation, to the nature of the connection proposed to be established, and to the purposes for which such representation is desirable."—(The Earl of Rosebery.)
LORD HERRIESsaid, that if the Commissioners made use of the power thus entrusted to them, they could insist on the University Court being represented on the governing body of every

571
school or college to be affiliated to the Universities. That appeared to him a very serious matter. If, as he hoped and trusted, denominational schools should wish to be affiliated, it might happen that the University Court, with a majority consisting of members of the Church of Scotland, would insist that a member of their body should be on the governing body of the denominational schools; whether Episcopal, or Roman Catholic, or Presbyterian. He thought the clause should be amended so as not to make it obligatory on the University Court to be represented on the governing bodies of those Colleges, because he was afraid that otherwise it would prevent many Colleges from becoming affiliated.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he did not think the objection had any foundation in fact. After all, they must remember that affiliation under the Bill was to be carried on by the mutual consent of both parties, and if a college wishing to be affiliated made it a condition that the University should not be represented on its governing body, and such affiliation was, nevertheless, desirable, he did not think that the Commissioners would insist upon a condition which would put an end to the scheme of affiliation. The words were not obligatory by any means. They were to enable arrangements to be made where they were deemed requisite, and he did not think a governing body would be so insane, or the Commissioners so unwise, as to introduce a condition which would be absolutely unacceptable to the college treating for affiliation, and which would put an end to all possibility of affiliation.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, that he had carefully considered the noble Earl's (the Earl of Rosebery's) Amendment, and the noble Lord (Lord Herries) might be assured that, if it had been open to the objection raised by him, the Government would not have accepted it; but as the noble Earl had pointed out, it was purely optional, and, therefore, the fears which the noble Lord had expressed would not be realized.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 16 (University of St. Andrew's. Powers).
On the Motion of the Marquess of LOTHIAN the following new Sub-section was added:—
"In the event of the said University College being affiliated to the said University, to regulate the time, place, and manner of the first election of the assessors to be elected to the University Court by the General Council, and by the Senatus Academicus of the said University after such affiliation—which election the Commissioners shall appoint to take place as soon as conveniently may be after such affiliation; and the assessor then in office shall demit office on the date of such election."
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 20 (Power to University Court to alter ordinances).
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he moved to delete Sub-section 1, giving power to alter ordinances with respect to the appropriation of the sum allotted to such University by the Commissioners out of the annual grant. By striking out that sub-section and making the words general, the University Court would in future have power to make any alteration in the ordinances made by the Commissioners, or any new ordinances.
Amendment moved, to leave out, in page 15, line 20, Sub-section (1).—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he would consider the matter before the third reading stage.
Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
Further Amendments made; Bill to be read 3a on Monday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 165.)

STANDING ORDERS OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS.

  NOMINATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE.
  Moved, that the Lords following be named of the Committee:—

  L. Chancellor

  E. Morley

  L. President, (V. Cranbrook)

  E. Camperdown

  E. Granville

  L. Privy Seal, (E. Cadogan

  E. Northbrook

  E. Selborne

  D. Buckingham and Chandos

  V. Oxenbridge

  L. Wemyss E. Wemyss

  M. Salisbury

  M. Bath

  L. Rosebery (E. Rosebery)

  E. Derby

  E. Pembroke and Montgomery

  L. Kintore (E. Kintore)

  E. Cowper

  L. Kenry (E. Dunraven and Mount Earl)

  E. Carnarvon

  E. Milltown

  L. Herschell—(The Lord Privy Seal)

  E. Harrowby

  LORD HERSCHELLsaid, he rose to ask a question with reference to the scope of the Committee. The noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll), who spoke in the debate the previous night, appeared to take the view that the usefulness of their Lordships' House depended in the main upon the possibility of its coming into collision with the other House of Parliament. It appeared to him, however, that their Lordships' House did perform, and might perform, most useful functions in cases in which there could be no possible danger of such a collision. It appeared to him also that their Lordships had very large and useful functions to perform in reviewing and revising the work of the other House of Parliament when it came up for consideration. During the whole of the present Session, and probably the whole of the past Session, in dealing with measures which had come from the House of Commons, their Lordships had dealt with them in such a manner as to involve no risk of collision between the two Houses. Their Lordships had been able to make useful Amendments, which would cause the work of the House of Commons to operate better than it would have done had no such revision taken place. It appeared to him that it would be extremely desirable to make the work done by their Lordships in that direction as effective as possible. There were many cases in which the object was one upon which they all agreed, and the general method to be pursued might command common assent. Yet the success of the measure might, to a great extent, depend on the careful thinking out of details, and in seeing that its provisions were consistent and coherent. He did not think this work was so well done as it might be. The measures which came before their Lordships were of various kinds. If they excited considerable political hostility they were carefully examined, their provisions were critically scanned. But if, as often was the case, the measures did not excite that keen political interest, though useful and important in their character, then too frequently it was the business of no one in particular to look into them. If the measure happened to be one which interested a particular Member of the House, the provisions most likely were carefully examined; but even that precaution could
  574
  not always be relied on in the case of all Bills. It had in these circumstances occurred to him that Standing Orders Committees of their Lordships' House might be appointed each Session, somewhat similar to the Grand Committees in the House of Commons, to which certain Bills might be referred, unless the House otherwise ordered. Such Committees would then feel it to be their duty to examine the particular Bills referred to them, in order to see whether they needed amendment or could be made more effective. If the Committee were to have the assistance, as they might well have, of one skilled draftsman, whose work should consist in looking critically at the form of legislation, he thought they might be able very often to put the legislation into better shape, and prevent those inconsistencies and blemishes which were often found to greatly mar the measure, and lead to litigation. He would ask the noble Lord, therefore, whether he thought this question was one which would come within the scope of the Reference to the Committee; and, if not, whether he had any objection to the addition of words providing for the matter being considered by the Committee?
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN)said, he cordially endorsed what had been said as to the proceedings of their Lordships' House in revising measures which came from the other House of Parliament. Anything which would in any degree tend to improve or strengthen their dealing with those measures would obviously be of great benefit not only to the proceedings of the House, but also to the progress of legislation in the other House of Parliament. He thought he might express the confident opinion that the Reference to the Committee as it at present existed was sufficient to cover the objects which the noble and learned Lord desired to attain. He had consulted the Prime Minister on the subject, and he also was of the same opinion—that it was not necessary to enlarge the Reference for the purpose mentioned by the noble and learned Lord.
  THE EARL OF SELBORNEsaid, that had the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) been present he felt sure that he would have objected to the rather paradoxical manner in which the noble and learned Lord represented the opinions of the

  575
  noble Duke, as expressed the previous evening. He did not think the noble Duke said that the usefulness of their Lordships' House consisted in the possibility of its collision with the other House of Parliament. What he said was only that any measure which would prevent the possibility of any such conflict must also destroy the independence of the House and its power to be useful as a Second Chamber.
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Ten o'clock.