HL Deb 07 June 1888 vol 326 cc1329-45

House in Committee (according to order).

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3 (Definitions).

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

moved to insert the following definition of "affiliation":— Affiliation' for the purposes of this Act shall mean such a connection between an existing University and College as shall be entered into by their mutual consent, under conditions approved by the Commissioners, or, after the determination of their powers, by the Scottish Universities Committee of the Privy Council. He thought if the noble Marquess accepted his Amendment it would greatly simplify the Bill, and get rid of the words "added to" and "addition," which were particularly bare and meagre.

THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN)

said, he was quite willing to accept the Amendment of the noble Earl. He was afraid, however, that the word "affiliation" had two or three meanings and was not quite understood. He preferred the word "addition." The object he had in view in leaving out the words "affiliation and incorporation," and any other form of union, and inserting the words "added to," was to give the widest possible meaning to the term employed.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said, he hoped the noble Earl would retain the word "affiliation," because it was a term which they all knew quite well, and one which was used in connection with the Universities. The word "addition," on the other hand, meant anything in the world. He was glad the noble Marquess was willing to accept the Amendment of his noble Friend.

LORD WATSON

thought the Amendment made the meaning of the word "affiliation" perfectly clear.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, he must confess that he did not see any objection to the Bill as it originally stood.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he was quite willing to accept the word "affiliation."

LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK

said, that if the word "affiliation" was to be substituted throughout for the words "added to," he should withdraw his proposal to substitute "associated with" instead of "added to."

Amendment agreed to.

On the Motion of The Marquess of LOTHIAN, the following Amendment made:—In page 2, at end of Clause 3, add— 'College,' where by the context it does not apply to a college presently forming part of any university, means any institution which may be added as a college to such university by the Commissioners, or after the expiry of their powers by the university court under this Act. 'Governing body' means a body constituted on a permanent footing, and charged, by Act of Parliament, Royal Charter, deed of endowment and trust, or otherwise, with the management and administration of any fund devoted to higher education. 'Students Representative Council' means a students' representative council in any university, constituted in such manner as shall be fixed by the Commissioners under this Act.

Amendment moved, After the word "institution" omit the words "which may be added as a College to such University by the Commissioners, or after the expiry of their powers by the University Court under this Act," in order to insert the following—"established on a permanent footing for the purpose of teaching the higher branches of education, and which shall be sufficiently endowed, in the opinion of the Commissioners, and after the expiry of their powers by the University Committee.—(The Lord Watson.)

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, that so far as he understood the Amendment he was prepared to accept it, but he should not like to do so off-hand. Therefore he would state what he proposed to do on Report.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said, he would appeal to the noble Marquess to allow the Amendment to be inserted now, and, if necessary, it could be dealt with on Report.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

assented to the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 (Commencement of Act).

Clause 5 (University Courts).

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said, he should like to refer to this clause. Sub-section (c) provided "the head of each College presently existing in or which may hereafter be affiliated to or incorporated with the University" might hereafter be added to the University Court. He could not see that it was necessary that the head of the College should be part of the University Court. Objection had been taken that these courts were too bulky, and he thought it would be a good commencement to omit these words and leave it entirely to the Commissioners under Sub-section 1 to add such number of the Governing Body of any College affiliated to the university as they might see fit. He moved the omission of Sub-section (c).

Amendment moved to omit Sub-section (c).—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

LORD WATSON

said, he quite agreed that this was a matter of very considerable importance, because the University Court would be a very unwieldly and cumbrous body, and it was obvious that if a great number of small Colleges took advantage of the provisions of the Bill, and if it was imperative that the head of each College should be a member of the Court, too many members would be added to the Courts in proportion to the University representatives. Although there was a difficulty in laying down any imperative rule, it would be wise to impose some reasonable limitation on the numbers who were to represent affiliated Colleges. Therefore it appeared to him to be necessary to make some alteration in the direction suggested by the noble Earl. It might be left to the Commissioners to fix the amount of representation, having regard to the proportion of the teachers and the number of their students as compared with the number of University students and teachers. He did not say the proportion should be precisely the same, because some Universities contained a very large number of students; but, at the same time, considering the nature of these bodies, he thought the representation should bear some proportion to the total number of the teachers and the students whom they brought in as affiliated to the University, and that should not only apply to their representation on the Court, but to the purposes for which they sat.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, that it was a very great pity that, in order to conciliate the various claims to sit in the Courts, these bodies had been swollen to a very unwieldly size. He confessed that, where they were giving such very large powers to the Commissioners, he thought it would have been a simpler solution of the matter to leave the composition of the University Court to the Commission. But as a different course had been taken it appeared to him that Sub-section 1 more than covered what was put forward by Sub-section (c). In many cases the head of a College would not be engaged in teaching. He had in his mind one great College where the head would be in that position, and he would be forced to be a member of the University Court, probably against his will. He would also remind the Committee that the Bill gave a certain fixed proportion to the great University on the University Court, and that the Universities of Edinburgh and Glasgow might double their classes without having any power to increase their representatives; while, on the other hand, each small College might have two representatives, and have at least one. So that the result might be that the affiliated Colleges would altogether swamp a University in the University Court. He would, therefore, suggest to the noble Marquess the following Amendment, which, however, he would not move— That the Commissioners should arrange for the due representation on the University Courts of affiliated colleges, having regard to the relative number of the colleges, of the teaching staffs, of students proceeding to graduation, and of the nature of the connection proposed to be established in each case. They must remember that affiliation, according to the definition that was to be inserted, and the various forms of union contemplated in the Bill, covered a very great variety of possible relations between the Colleges and the University. They might have a union for purely graduating purposes, and an affiliation of a character approaching incorporation. But under this clause there was no discrimination with regard to the representation, and he thought that the Universities had a fair claim to have their ase reconsidered by the Government.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he was quite willing to admit that grave matters for consideration had been raised, and suggested the postponement of the Amendment to the Report stage.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said, he was willing to postpone his Amendment to the Report stage.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

remarked that the object of the Government in framing the constitution of the Courts was that they thought it was desirable, as far as possible, to make the numbers statutory. That number might be infringed by Sub-section 2. He still thought that it was desirable that the Court should be constituted by the Bill as far as possible, but was willing to consider the omission of the sub-section under consideration.

Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

asked for the reason why it was proposed to give the Crown the right to appoint two assessors? He could see no reason for it. He begged to move the sub-section giving that power.

Amendment moved, In page 2, line 32, to leave out sub-section (h).—(The Earl of Rosebery).

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

explained that the Government thought it desirable that the Crown should have the right to nominate as members of the Court men of eminence in science, art, or business. It was obvious that such men would be of the greatest possible advantage to a University Court, and there appeared to be no other easy manner of obtaining the advantage of their assistance than that proposed in the clause.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said, he thought it was undesirable to introduce into the Court any members nominated by the Crown. The Court was to manage the business of the University, and it would be of no use to have members on it who did not regularly attend. If the eminent men referred to by the noble Marquess resided in the place where the University was, they would most likely be nominated by the Senatus, for they would in all probability be connected with the University. If they resided elsewhere, he did not think they would be of much use. As to redressing the balance of parties, he thought it would be a very great mistake for the Crown to nominate any members for that purpose. He moved the omission of the sub-section.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he could not accept the Amendment. He should have thought that the noble Earl would have presumed that the Crown would only nominate members who could attend the meetings of the Court. He was not thinking of political parties in this matter, or in connection with the Bill; and he, therefore, did not think that the Crown nominees would have anything to do with Party politics.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, that considering the enormous power they were placing by statute in the hands of the Court, it was of importance that it should be a body of great weight, including a variety of representatives, and appointed by a number of authorities. Those who administered the Imperial affairs of the country would generally appoint fit persons to take part in the proceedings of the University Court, and he did not view with any alarm the fact of the Crown appointing two assessors.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, he was not at all re-assured by the explanations. He looked upon these Crown assessors as amiable superfluities, and he failed to find out any reason, good, bad, or indifferent, for their existence. It was admitted that the smaller the body, consistently with due regard to representation, to conduct business, the more efficiently was the business likely to be done. This Court was an inconveniently large body. It almost approached the size of an overgrown modern Cabinet—than which body there could be nothing more ridiculous for the transaction of business. He wished to ask the further question. Where were these superfluous representatives of science and art to be found? Look at Edinburgh. He wanted to know where the representatives of science and art were to be found outside the University? Were they to be found in Glasgow? There was one perhaps in Aberdeen, the ex-principal, but he did not think it likely that the Crown would appoint him. Perhaps there were at St. Andrew's some persons who were prepared to undertake the duty of Crown assessors. If these eminent gentlemen were only to swoop down on great occasions, they would disturb and not redress any balance of parties.

LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK

said, he could not disguise from himself that the presence of two eminent and distinguished persons selected by the Govern- ment for the time might be of essential use to the University. The Scotch Universities owed a great deal of their financial resources to the Government, and they might in the future wish to obtain additional resources, and these two representatives of the Government on the Court might be useful intermediates between the Government and the University. The balance of advantage was on the side of the proposals in the Bill.

LORD WATSON

said, the noble Lord who had just spoken seemed to forget entirely the scheme of this Bill. Great part of the work of a University Court was of an ordinary business character—the administration of property and Revenue, and questions of teaching and discipline—and whenever the Court performed an important Act requiring an ordinance, they necessarily came into contact with the Universities Committee, without whose sanction that act would have no effect. He believed that the men chosen as members of the University Court would be of sufficient mark and ability to give good advice on all questions that would come before them. There would be plenty of them to do the work, and they would not want assistance.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, he had not put any Amendments on the Paper, and did not wish to move any which might be adverse to the opinion of his noble Friend; but he wished to point out that his noble Friend had put most inconvenient restriction upon the power of the Rector in the appointment of his assessors. The Rectors in the Scottish Universities were generally political persons. It was one of the traditional privileges of the Scottish students, and one which they very highly prized, that they elected the Rectors of the Universities, and they made it to a large extent notoriously a political matter. There was a Conservative Committee, a Liberal Committee, and possibly a Home Rule Committee, too, in connection with each University. Politics, fortunately, did not always guide the students in their choice. They sometimes chose eminent men in politics and in literature, and very often they chose men of general eminence in the country, but almost invariably they chose men who could not practically take part in the work of the University. Therefore, the Rector came to be represented by his assessors. His noble Friend put the Rector under this extraordinary Parliamentary statutory direction—"The Rector may, before he appoints an assessor, confer with his students." By the insertion of these words they put the Rector in a most invidious position. By law, the Rector had the right, once he was elected by the students, to appoint his assessor, and he almost invariably appointed a good man. But if they compelled him to consult the students, he would he placed in an exceedingly inconvenient and invidious position. The students were eminently capable of deciding upon a man of eminence as Rector, but he did not think they were so well able to choose a good man of business for the working purposes of the University. He would, therefore, suggest that the words he had quoted should be struck out, so that the Rectors should be left free, as they were now, to choose their assessors.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he was not prepared to accept the Amendment.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, he must press his Amendment to a Division.

On Question, "That the sub-section proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause?" Their Lordships divided:—Contents 38; Not Contents 18: Majority 20.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 6 (Powers of the University Court).

Amendment moved, In page 5, line 10, leave out "but without the power of alienating, except on application to and under the sanction of the Court of Session."—(The Earl of Rosebery.)

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

, in moving that the sub-section giving the University Court generally all the powers necessary for the management and administration of the revenue and property of the University should be amended by leaving out the words— But without the power of alienating, except on application to and under the sanction of the Court of Session, said, the omission of these words would rather give larger powers to the University Court in respect to its property. He thought the University Courts, powerfully constituted as they were, more especially with the addition of Crown assessors, would be amply sufficient for the regulation of the property of the Universities. It would only be fair in a case where no jobbery could be suspected that they should have the largest powers conferred upon them.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he would accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK

begged to point out that under this clause the University Council had power to review, on representation made by any of its members, or by any member of the Senatus Academicus, any decision which the Senatus Academicus might come to in the exercise of its powers under Section 7. He thought it should be made distinctly clear what Her Majesty's Government meant, and whether the University Court or the Senatus Academicus was to be the absolute authority in matters of discipline and teaching, whether the resolutions of the Senatus were to be subject to alteration and repeal on the part of the University Court.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, that the word "review" meant what the noble Lord had suggested it meant.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

moved the omission of Sub-sections 8 and 9—first, because they were in the wrong part of the Bill; and secondly, because he considered the Bill would be better without them. When he said they were in the wrong part of the Bill his reason was that if they looked at the Bill they would see that the first six sub-sections dealt with certain administrative acts, and that Sub-sections 8 and 9 contemplated the giving of certain powers to enact regulations, and, in fact, power to introduce all sorts of changes. If they were to be introduced they should have been introduced in Clause 20, which dealt with ordinances.

Amendment moved to omit Sub-sections 8 and 9,—(The Earl of Camperdown.)

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, that he would consider the Amendment on Report.

Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

moved the substitution of the following for Subsection 10:— To appoint committees of their own number, consisting of not less than five members, with powers either to transact directly such business as may be entrusted to them by the University or else to report thereon to the University Court. His reason for moving this Amendment was similar to the reasons he had given for moving a previous Amendment—namely, to enable the University Court to deal more readily and in a more business-like way with their own affairs. He understood the noble Marquess had no objection to the Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he would accept the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK

proposed, in page 7, line 17, after Sub-section 10, to insert as a now Sub-section the following:— To appoint representatives, being members of the University Court, to act as representatives of the University on the governing body of any college or colleges which may hereafter be associated with the Universities. He urged that it was desirable in the interests of harmony and good understanding between the Universities and the Colleges affiliated to them that there should be some representation of the Governing Body of the University on the Governing Body of the College. He thought the University Court should be represented on the Governing Body of a College in order to maintain harmony and good understanding between them, not with reference to the management of property and funds, but only with reference to discipline and teaching.

Amendment moved, In page 7, line 17, after Sub-section 10, insert—"11. To appoint representatives, being members of the University Court, to act as representatives of the University on the governing body of any College or Colleges which may be hereafter associated with the Universities."—(The Lord Napier and Ettrick.)

LORD WATSON

said, he thought it was necessary to keep in mind that the Colleges and the University were to be affiliated of consent and under conditions approved by the Commissioners. He did not doubt that, in some cases at all events, it would be exceedingly distasteful to Colleges managing their own affairs to admit representatives to administer their funds or their patronage. He thought that the University Court ought to have a review of the teaching and discipline of every College associated with it; but beyond that the admission of representatives of the Court to the Governing Body of a College should be a matter of arrangement.

LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK

said, that he had a subsequent Amendment which particularly specified that the representatives of the University Court should have no power in the management or regulation of the funds or property of the College other than the contribution of the College to the University funds.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, he did not see the force of the objection raised by the noble and learned Lord (Lord Watson). Taking the definition of affiliation as it had been given, he pointed out that the conditions must be approved by both parties and by the University Commission. In these circumstances, he thought it could not be wrong to make those arrangements by that Court instead of adopting the method provided by the Bill, which was a one-sided arrangement. He thought the noble Marquess, in framing the Bill, had almost precluded by this marked omission the putting of a representative of the Commission on the Governing Body of the College. It ought, therefore, to be made clear in the Bill that a representative was considered by both parties desirable.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

thought that any representative of the University Court on the Governing Body of a College should be a purely optional matter, and he, therefore, could not consent to the Amendment. He remarked that Members of the House had had no opportunity of considering this proposal, as there had been no Notice given of the Amendment.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, he would suggest that an Amendment should be proposed on the Report stage to carry out his suggestion.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

thought he could see his way to accept the principle contained in this suggestion, and offered to consider the Amendment with that view, before the Report stage.

Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 7, 8, and 9 agreed to.

Clause 10 (Appointment of Commissioners and secretary).

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

remarked, that he did not propose to say a word in regard to the Commission; but it was not to be taken that those on his side of the House approved of it.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, that if the noble Lord did not express an opinion, he must be taken as approving of the Commission.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 11 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.

Clause 14 (Power of the Commissioners).

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

moved the insertion of the following sub-section in the part of the clause empowering the Commissioners to make ordinances:— (C.) Where it shall seem requisite to frame regulations under which the patronage of existing bursaries vested in private individuals shall be exercised. He said his object was to leave some discretion to the Commissioners to leave alone those private bursaries which had worked well, and to deal only with those which should be proved to have given rise to jobbery.

Amendment moved, In page 9, to insert the following sub-section:—(c) "Where it shall seem requisite to frame regulations under which the patronage of existing bursaries vested in private individuals shall be exercised."—(The Earl of Rosebery.)

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, that he had no objection to offer to the noble Lord's Amendment.

LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK

said, he desired to congratulate the noble Marquess on having withdrawn from the Bill, as it stood originally, what was really a confiscatory clause.

Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

asked the Secretary for Scotland if he thought it necessary that the 13th sub-section of this clause should be retained as it was?— To lay down regulations for the constitution and functions of a Students' Representative Council in each University. It was proposed in another clause that the Rector might consult this Council with regard to his assessor; but the Rector had already that power, and, as a matter of practice, did consult the students now. He thought it was very doubtful as to whether Parliament should by Act of Parliament compel the Commissioners to lay down regulations for the constitution and functions of a Students' Representative Council, and to allot to them certain powers, because it must be remembered that when they said in an Act of Parliament that a thing "may" be done, it was an indication that it ought to be done. They knew nothing about these Students' Councils, and he did not think it was wise to mention them in this Bill.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, that while he admitted that the principle of the sub-section was a new one, he thought it was very desirable, in the interests of the students themselves, that the Commissioners should have this optional power. He saw no reason why the Representative Councils should not be made as efficient as possible, and a responsibility given to their students themselves by their formal recognition. His desire was that the students should be consulted as to the Assessor by the Rector rather than by the Chairman of his Election Committee.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

said, he could not congratulate the noble Marquess upon having made out a strong case. With the single exception of consulting with the Rector with regard to his Assessor, the Bill did not propose to confer any functions on the Students' Representative Council. As this one function could be performed now without the Bill, he did not see any necessity for the creation of the Council.

LORD WATSON

said, he thought it might be proper to lay down certain regulations; but he thought it was going a little too far to say that the Commissioners were to find out what were to be the functions of a Students' Representative Council in each University.

LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK

said, he did not concur with the noble Earl (the Earl of Camperdown) with regard to the Students' Representative Council. He contended that the sub-section was an actual Instruction to the Commissioners. There was no doubt that students in the Scottish Universities were an active and rather aggressive body at the present moment. He thought they would take an active part in the management of the Universities, and he therefore thought it would be a wise thing to recognize them as a factor in University affairs, and to give them a recognized constitution and status. That might be done in a dangerous or revolutionary sense; but he thought the constitution of the Commission of which they had heard the names was a very ample provision against any danger of that kind. The matter might be safely entrusted to them.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he hoped their Lordships would now be satisfied with the discussion that had taken place on the matter.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

intimated that on Report he should move the omission of the sub-section.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

On the Motion of the Marquess of LOTHIAN, the following Clause was inserted after Clause 14:—

(Extension of Universities.)

"The Commissioners, and, after the expiry of their powers, the university court, may, if they think fit, make ordinances to extend any of the universities, by adding new colleges to them, under regulations to be laid down by the Commissioners, subject to the following conditions:—

  1. (1.) The university court, and the college which it is proposed shall form part of the university, shall be consenting parties.
  2. (2.) The approval of the universities committee shall be signified.
  3. (3.) The college shall have been, under its existing constitution, placed on a permanent footing, and shall be sufficiently endowed, in the opinion of the Commissioners, and, after the expiry of their powers, of the universities committee.
  4. (4.) The university and any college or colleges which may be added to it shall severally contribute for the general purposes of the university as increased by such addition such annual sum as the commissioners, and, after the expiry of their powers, the university court, may determine, having regard to the special circumstances of the case.
  5. (5.) Where such college is established on a permanent footing under Act of Parliament, Royal charter, deed of appointment, or other trust, and under its constitution the college funds are managed by persons other than the members of the teaching department, such funds, other than those contributed to the university, shall continue to be managed as heretofore, subject to the control and review of the university court.
  6. (6.) The university court, or any college under which this Act shall have been made part of the university, may respect- 1343 tively resolve that such college shall cease to form part of such university; and, upon such resolution being passed by the university court, or notified to the university court by such college, the university court shall rescind the ordinance by which such college was made to form part of such university. Provided always, that all questions of payment or repayment of any sums of money which may be alleged to be due or repayable by either the university to the college or by the college to the university, on such ordinance being rescinded, shall be disposed of by an order of the universities committee, after such inquiry as shall to the said committee seem necessary, and whose decision thereon shall be final."

Amendment moved, to omit Sub-section 3 of New Clause.—(The Lord Watson.)

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he was willing to assent to the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, he thought the same course should be followed with respect to Sub-sections 4 and 5, and he would move their omission.

Amendment moved, to omit sub-sections 4 and 5.—(The Earl of Rosebery.)

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, he was prepared to agree to the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICK

said, he understood that when a College was to be united with a University, the union was to be effected with the consent of the Universities Court; but from Sub-section 6 of Clause 15, it would appear that the separation of the College from the University might be effected by a resolution of the University Court without the consent of the Universities Committee. He had been told that the consent of the Universities Committee was implied in another part of the Bill, which he failed to discover.

LORD WATSON

explained that, as the clause stood, if one of the parties desired to withdraw from the arrangement that had been made, it was imperative on the University Court to rescind the ordinance. Under these circumstances, he thought that under the plain construction of the clause there would be no reference made to the Universities Committee. Whether that was desirable or not was another question.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

said, that in any case there must be a safeguard against compulsory separation.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

assured the noble Earl that that danger would be guarded against. Clause 19 provided that the ordinances should be laid before Parliament.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 16 to 20, inclusive, agreed to, with Amendments.

Clause 21 (Transfer of property by Commissioner of Works and vesting thereof).

THE EARL OF ABERDEEN

said, he had an Amendment, the object of which was to exclude the Edinburgh Botanic Gardens from the operation of the Bill. This was a subject of great interest in the Scottish Metropolis. It was difficult to see why it was proposed that this Garden should be handed over to the Edinburgh University, and, so far as he had been able to gather, the University did not want it. Neither the Town Council nor the public approved of the change. As regarded the Town Council, they had indicated their strong wish that the existing arrangement should continue; and they had good grounds for expressing that opinion, including this, that they had spent as much as £19,000 in order to acquire the control of the Arboretum attached to the Garden. The only difficulty in accepting the Amendment was, he supposed, that if it were accepted it might be thought that the sum of money proposed to be awarded to the University of Edinburgh ought to be reduced by the amount now spent in keeping up the Gardens. He should be sorry if such a course was insisted on, because it was obvious that the University of Edinburgh might not spend as much on the Garden as was now spent. They might feel that there were other matters which had a prior claim on their consideration.

Amendment moved, In page 14, lines 24 to 28, leave out ("but subject as to the Edinburgh Botanic Gardens and all buildings therein as to the provisions hereinafter contained for the redemption of a sum of one hundred and fifty pounds per annum now payable to the Professor of Public Law in the University of Edinburgh").—(The Earl of Aberdeen.)

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

said, that this was a matter entirely in the hands of the Treasury, and that it was out of his power to agree to the Amendment. A similar provision had existed in previous University Bills.

THE EARL OF ABERDEEN

said, he would withdraw his Amendment; but he hoped the question would be raised with greater success in the House of Commons.

Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 22 to 30 agreed to.

Clause 31 (Report on finance to be made annually).

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN

moved, as an Amendment, that the Report "be presented to and considered by the General Council of the University," as well as laid before Parliament.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY

asked, if there was any necessity that the Report should be laid before Parliament?

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

stated that he was unable to accept the Amendment, and that he thought it was advisable that the Financial Report should be laid before Parliament.

Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.

Clause agreed to.

Remaining Clauses agreed to.

The Report of the Amendments to be received on Tuesday the 19th instant; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 133.)