Lords Sitting of 23 July 1888

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—Companies Clauses Consolidation Act (1845) Amendment (170–230).
Third Reading—Patents, Designs, and Trade Marks (225); Solicitors (226), and passed.
Withdrawn—Foreign Meat (206).
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLs—Second Reading—Local Government (No. 13)* (207).
Report—Commons Regulation (Therfield Heath)* [228].

POLITICAL PARTIES IN 1880–82.—SIR RICHARD CROSS (VISCOUNT CROSS).

  PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS): I hope your

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  Lordships will allow me to make a brief personal explanation. My attention has been called to a letter from Sir William Harcourt, addressed to Mr. Herbert Gladstone, in which he quotes the following passage from Mr. Forster's Life, and draws an argument from the statement therein made:—
  "At this time, it must be borne in mind, the Tory Party showed strong signs of a desire to conciliate the Irish Representatives. The Quarterly Review had been sneering at the arrests of suspects by the cartload. Sir John Hay had given Notice of a Motion condemning the Protection Act and the suspension of trial by jury; and Sir R. Cross, on the part of the official Conservatives, had notified his intention to move, as an Amendment to Sir John Hay's Motion, a Resolution in favour of the immediate release of Mr. Parnell and his fellow-Members. Ministers, who had been abused with such vehemence a few weeks before because they were supposed to be dealing with the Nationalist Party in Ireland with criminal leniency, now found that the Tory Party were prepared to attack them on the opposite ground."
  I cannot account for the mistake, made either by the editor or by Mr. Forster's own notes, as the Notice of Amendment there referred to was made by the late Mr. J. Kynaston Cross, then Liberal Member for Bolton, who was certainly not an official Representative of the Conservative Party, and not by myself. The argument founded on that statement, therefore, falls to the ground.

RAILWAYS (IRELAND)—PURCHASE BY THE STATE.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD GREVILLE, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, If they will during the Recess consider the desirability of bringing forward next Session a Bill for the purchase by the State of the Irish Railways? said: My Lords, I hope to awaken the attention and enlist the sympathy of all who in this House are interested in the future prosperity of Ireland; and in so doing I am most desirous, at the outset, to make it clearly understood that I do not approach the subject from any political point of view. As an Irish landlord, who is deeply interested in the welfare of his country, I am desirous, if possible, of raising this subject altogether out of the region of Party into one of national importance. The question of the Irish Railways has been the subject of Royal Commissions and Committees from time to time, the practical outcome of which has been nil.
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  It is admitted on all sides that the present administration of the Irish Railways has never been strong, efficient, or popular, and has no hold upon the public confidence. Apart from the question of Irish Government, which I have said I do not intend to discuss, there is no practical difficulty in the way of the State acquisition of the Irish Railways. My object will be to show that Ireland offers a promising field for the trial of an experiment which has achieved so much success in other countries, and in our own Colonies; and whatever Government is, or may be, responsible for the administration of Irish affairs, they could put their hands to no more hopeful labour than that of placing the Irish Railways on a basis of State ownership, to be managed primarily for the advancement of national industries. The evidence taken by the Royal Commission on Irish Industries in 1886 shows that trade in Ireland is in a languishing—almost vanishing—condition. As witness after witness was called, it was one long story of over bearing competition, of manufactures declining, of the absence of industrial activity, of enfeebled resources, and unprofitable results. It was a country of all others which required a powerful stimulus of a nature applicable to every kind of industry. It is impossible for any Government to take all the interests of Ireland under its protection. Yet that is, in effect, what the various trade witnesses ask for. There is but one way in which they could all be helped, and that is by dealing with the railways. By this means an incentive may be given to exertion; and whatever elements of self-help exist in Ireland may be brought into operation and given a fair field. The railways are inseparably connected with the success or failure of all other industries, from agriculture downwards. It is just as important to deal with the railways as with the land, since no land reform will be productive unless there is cheap access to the market. It is, no doubt, very important that something should be done for the Irish Fisheries; but no money spent in this direction can secure a proper return unless cheap means of transit are provided. The improvement of the Irish harbours may also be a good object in itself. The harbours are, however, usually useful just in proportion as they are connected with

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  an efficient railway system. The Royal Commission appointed in 1836 to consider a general system of railways for Ireland recommended two divisions, one Northern and one Southern, with certain trunk and branch lines. To avoid a partial execution of the plan it was proposed that the Government should, in certain events, undertake the construction of the railways as public works. The Ministry adopted the view of the Commission, and introduced into Parliament measures authorizing them to construct certain lines, the arrangements for which were to be vested in a Board of Works. The House of Commons approved the proposals; but they were subsequently adandoned, with the result that Irish Railways were left to private enterprize, which, successful in England and Scotland, had been in Ireland a conspicuous failure. From the outset the efforts of the Irish Railway Companies had to be bolstered up by State loans, sometimes for the purposes of construction, sometimes to pay off liabilities. Ever since 1842 the Government has, in a grandmotherly way, looked after the Irish Railways, seeing them through trials of infancy, and coming to their relief in times of emergency. They are characterized by high charges, slow speed, insufficient accommodation, and poor dividends, and if Irish evidence is reliable at all they are a tax rather than an assistance to the Irish people. The administration of the Irish Railways is notoriously wasteful. According to Bradshaw's Railway Manual there are 303 directors, 97 secretaries, engineers, and managers, besides about 60 auditors and solicitors, engaged in the administration or railways, the mileage of which is not largely in excess of that of the English Great Western. Mr. Finlay says—
  "There would be no difficulty whatever in managing the whole of the railways by one Board of Directors, one manager, and one locomotive superintendent."
  The London and North-Western Railway, the capital of which is three times greater and the receipts four times greater than the capital and receipts of all the Irish Railways put together, and which carries three times the number of passengers, and nine times the tonnage of minerals and merchandize, is managed by a Board of 30 Directors, a Chairman, two Deputy Chairmen, and
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  one General Manager; the Board meeting once a month. When English Railway officials are asked for an explanation of the difference between English rates and Continental rates the invariable answer is that the Continental Railways cost about two-thirds less to construct. But so have the Irish Railways—in round figures, the English lines cost about £40,000 per mile, the Irish lines about £14,000 per mile. It is probable that agriculture, as the chief of the Irish industries, suffers most; but all industries are crushed, while no attempt can be made to establish any new industry. The railways have killed the milling interest. The witnesses say that you may count the silent mills by thousands. The freight turns the scale against home produce. Upon the whole, it can hardly admit of doubt that the through rates are for the advantage of the Irish people. They are able to buy in the best market and sell to the best market. There has been an enormous development of intercourse between the two countries since the Traffic Conference was established. On the other hand, to a certain class of producers and traders it constitutes the same kind of grievance as that felt by English producers when foreign produce is carried over English lines at lower rates than English produce. The recognized wants of Ireland are—(1) A large reduction in rates and fares. (2) Amalgamation and harmonious management. (3) Extension and completion of connecting lines. How were the wants to be supplied? As to rates and fares, it is desirable that the local rates should be reduced to the level of the English through rates. As to amalgamation and harmonious management, that will necessarily follow upon State purchase. There will be one Board of Management and one set of officials. As to extensions and completion of connections, no doubt the Government who take this great subject in hand will have the best advice as to the best means of developing the present railway system. According to the plan which I have described, I estimate that there will be a profit to the Government in the 11th year of £50,000 and in the 13th year of £90,000. I have brought this matter before the House in the hope that the Government may see their way to deal in some way, if not by State purchase, with the ques-

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  tion; because, unless something is done to improve the position of Irish Railways, I fear that, unfortunately situated as the country is at present, its material condition will become a good deal worse. I hope the Government will give a favourable consideration to the subject.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN)said, he feared their Lordships would be somewhat weary of the answers which it was his duty to give to those noble Lords who from time to time invited the Government to take immediate steps in accordance with the recommendations contained in the Report of the Royal Commission on Irish Industry. With regard to the question of railways, he was afraid it was undoubtedly true that the condition and management of railway communication in Ireland could hardly be said to be in a satisfactory state; but he could not at present say more than that Her Majesty's Government had on more than one occasion intimated their intention of dealing, at no distant date, with the whole question of the interests of Ireland. The particular matter brought forward by the noble Lord had already engaged, and was now engaging, the attention of the Government, and it would be premature in him to say anything more on the present occasion.

FOREIGN MEAT BILL.—(No. 206.)
(The Lord Lamintgon.)
FOREIGN MEAT BILL.—(No. 206.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD LAMINGTON, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, remarked that when foreign meat was first introduced in this country people were wont to buy it at the rate of 3d. or 4d. per lb., but that was now entirely changed. This meat was bought by the different meat dealers, but he had never seen that it was announced in any shop—"Foreign meat sold here." The effect was that British meat was reduced in price, and that foreign meat was raised to the level of price of home-grown meat, both kinds being sold at a uniform rate of 8d. or 9d. per lb. Now, the Bill he submitted to the House was of the very simplest character, and it proposed that any person who should sell or expose for sale, either wholesale or retail, any foreign meat should exhibit a notice to that effect in a con-
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  spicuous part of the establishment, subject to certain penalties. Simple as the Bill was in its terms, he believed it would be an estimable been to all classes—on the poorer classes as well as on the agriculturist—by doing justice to British produce. Like the Oleomargarine Bill and the Food Adulteration Act, the Bill simply required dealers to say what they sold, and he begged to move the second reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Lamington.)
  LORD TRUROsaid, he thought the public would be very much indebted to the noble Earl for introducing the Bill. He was not quite satisfied that it would have as much effect as possibly the noble Lord anticipated; but it was satisfactory to know that it was about the first step that had been taken in the direction of repressing those innumerable small frauds both in regard to sale and adulteration, of which the poorer classes were constantly being made the victims. The time had certainly arrived when such a step should be taken.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he hoped their Lordships would pass the Bill; but he would suggest that it should be made to apply also to foreign cheese, since American cheese was said to be much adulterated with oil, which allowed of its being made at less cost than cheese made from milk.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (The Earl of ONSLOW)said, the Government were not wanting in sympathy with the object which the noble Lord had in view, and that, if the existing law was insufficient to prevent people from selling an article under a false name different from that which they professed to sell, he agreed with him that a legislative remedy should be found. He had not yet heard, however, that the noble Lord had accepted the advice he tendered to him the other day—namely, that he should institute a prosecution, and ascertain for himself whether or not the law was defective in that respect. He was afraid the Bill would not attain the objects the noble Lord had in view; no penalties were mentioned for an infringement of its provisions, and the Licensing Authority was not stated. It was assumed that butchers would be divided into two classes—those who put

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  up a notice that they were dealers in British and foreign meat, and those who did not; and that customers would be driven away entirely from those who put up such notice. It seemed more likely, however, that every butcher would take out a licence, and that when a customer came and asked about foreign meat the butcher would say that he sometimes sold it, and so was obliged to exhibit the notice, but that at the particular moment he had nothing but the best British meat. Again, this notice would appear outside the shop only; there would be nothing on the carts to indicate whether the tradesman was a dealer in foreign meat or not. What the noble Lord had to do was to show how he could tell the difference between a British steak and a foreign steak. For his own part, he thought it would be extremely difficult to do so; but until that could be done he was afraid that it would be impossible to put an end to the frauds. Perhaps it might be found possible to extend the system of marking joints of meat adopted by the Jews; however, until they could in some way earmark the particular joint, he did not see how they could put an end to the fraud complained of. With reference to the Bill itself, the noble Lord in the Preamble asserted that the present statutory law was insufficient to prevent fraud in this direction; but he had done nothing to prove that that was really the case. It might be so or it might not; but, for his own part, he was advised that the present law was sufficient. Then the noble Lord's Bill went on to define foreign meat as that of animals produced elsewhere than in Great Britain and Ireland and the Channel Islands. That was, in his opinion, a poor compliment to their Colonial Possessions, and he hoped that our Colonies would not hear that the noble Lord called meat "foreign" which came from them. With regard to the words "produced elsewhere," he did not know who the friends and clients of the noble Lord were; but if they were the large farmers and graziers of the country, he did not think that they would thank the noble Lord for endeavouring to put restrictions upon animals produced abroad and imported alive into this country. With regard to licences, the Bill did not say how they were to be obtained, or at what
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  cost. He thought that while the proposed restriction would be to a very great extent ineffectual, so far, at least, as the interest of the poor consumer was concerned, it would have the result of enabling the butcher, who already made no small profit, to say that in consequence of the action of the noble Lord and of Parliament he was obliged to put up the price of home-grown meat, and that increase of price would probably be extended to foreign meat as well. In his opinion, the result would be much the same as had happened in France, where a Bill had been passed only allowing meat to be imported in whole carcases or in three or four portions which could be shown to fit together. The result there had been largely to raise the price of beef. There was very likely some truth in the assertion that American beef was sometimes palmed off upon the consumer as British, but he was afraid that that was not confined to the matter of beef alone. A large amount of cheese made in America had been sold as British, and he was informed also that until recently a quantity of bacon and ham had been brought into this country and sold as Cumberland and Wiltshire bacon; but since the Merchandize Marks Act the Custom House Authorities had been able, to some extent, to grapple with that difficulty. He understood also that lard imported from America and sold as British was, to a large extent, made of oil and the fat of pigs which had died a natural death. All this was a great evil, and one which required to be looked into. Again, he believed that much horse flesh was used in the Bologna sausages and polonies sold to the poorer classes. While he would not ask their Lordships to reject the Bill, having regard to the advanced period of the Session, he would put it to his noble Friend whether it was desirable to proceed any further with it if the House affirmed the principle of the Bill by reading it a second time that afternoon? He would undertake in the beginning of next Session to move for a Select Committee of their Lordships' House to inquire into the whole subject of selling foreign food articles under the name of British, and he hoped that with the information which that Committee would obtain the Government would be enabled to bring forward a Bill drafted in a manner more

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  likely to attain the object than that of the noble Lord.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that he was somewhat surprised at the conclusion at which the noble Earl had arrived with regard to this Bill, considering the objections which he had urged against it. For his own part, while he was in favour of the principle that all things should be sold for what they actually were, he would suggest that it would be far better for the noble Earl to consent to the withdrawal of the Motion for the second reading after the statement made on behalf of the Government, than that their Lordships should be asked to affirm the principle of a Bill which was so imperfect as the one which had been introduced.
  LORD LAMINGTONthought that the noble Earl who had spoken for the Government had been rather severe on his Bill; but after what the noble Earl had said he would withdraw his Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn: Then, Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

WAR OFFICE—THE VOLUNTEERS— TRANSPORT—COLONEL GORDON IVES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD TRURO, in rising to ask, Whether, inasmuch as no scheme for providing the Volunteer Force with proper transport had been yet issued by the War Department, Her Majesty's Government would be willing to adopt that recently initiated by Colonel Gordon Ives? said, that, as far as he knew, no steps had been taken by the Government towards providing proper transport for the Auxiliary Forces; at all events, no system of any kind had been promulgated, and up to the present time they had been left in ignorance of any mode or scheme of any sort for the transport of commissariat and ammunition for these forces. He was aware that those who brought forward these matters were spoken of as alarmists, but the object of his question was quite the reverse of this; it was, if possible, to stir up the Government to take such steps as would render the Auxiliary Forces adequate to the duties which they had undertaken. The question of proper transport was a most important one. One special feature in the Magdala
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  Campaign had been the admirable way in which the Commissariat arrangements had been carried out; while, on the other hand, they could not fail to remember the effects of the failure of the Commissariat in the Crimea. In the war between Germany and France a great part of the disasters which had occurred had been due to unsatisfactory Commissariat arrangements. The Auxiliary Forces of this country would not, without proper transport, be able to perform their duties in time of need, and the inevitable result would be panic and disaster. A very active and zealous officer of the Volunteer Force had ventured to obtrude upon the Government a scheme which, though carried out only on a small scale, had, he believed, been found admirable. He had drawn up terms of contract with persons in possession of horses and waggons, and had them numbered, so that in case of war the Government could purchase them for immediate use. Perhaps the noble Lord would state whether the Government had made any contract of a like nature, or whether we were to wait for a lengthened period before the Transport Service of the Auxiliary Forces was fully organized?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS)said, he believed that two schemes whereby the Volunteer Force might be provided with transport had come before the Secretary of State for War. One was known as Sir William Humphrey's scheme, and the other as that of Colonel Gordon Ives. The scheme of Sir William Humphrey was reported on last year by the General Officer commanding at Portsmouth as highly satisfactory, and the result was that the Secretary of State for War consented to its being tried by, he believed, 10 corps in different parts of England. It was now being tried, and he believed would prove a success. In that case there was a small Government contribution. The scheme of Colonel Gordon Ives was entirely voluntary. In that case, also, the attention of Volunteer corps had been called to the matter, and he was informed by the Quartermaster General that a considerable number of corps had provided themselves with transport equipments under one or other of these schemes. He could assure the noble Lord that their best consideration was being given

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  to the subject by the Military Authorities.
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.