Lords Sitting of 13 July 1888

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Archdeaconry of Cornwall (202).
Referred to Select Committee—Land Charges Registration and Searches (186).
Committee—Report—Limited Partnerships (on re-comm.) (159–213).
Report—Lloyd's Signal Stations (84).
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS—Committee—Report—Local Government (No. 5)* (192).
Report—Local Government (No. 8)* (172); Local Government (No. 10)* (173); Local Government (No. 11)* (174); Local Government (Gas)* (142).
Third Reading—Elementary Education (London)* (102), and passed.

BURIAL GROUNDS AND CEMETERIES (METROPOLIS)—THE BURIAL GROUND OF WHITFIELD'S TABERNACLE, TOTTENHAM COURT ROAD.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF MEATH, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, What steps they had taken, as promised by the Home Secretary on the 10th of September of last year, to abate the scandal and danger to the public—as shown by the recent evidence given in the Regent's Park murder case—arising from the presence of a crowd, composed in large part of disorderly persons of both sexes, who were in the habit of attending a fair held nightly on the disused burial ground adjoining Whitfield's Tabernacle in Tottenham Court Road; and also, if the existing law were found to be inadequate for the purpose of putting a stop to the nuisance, whether Her Majesty's Government would introduce a Bill with this object? said, that those of their Lordships who were youthful and enterprizing enough to explore the comparatively unknown regions of Tottenham Court Road might have seen a chapel surrounded by a churchyard enclosed by a hoarding on which were exposed those pictorical representations which enter-prizing tradesmen put up for the instruction and edification of the public. If they were to go there at a later hour of the night they would find that this churchyard was a scene of unmitigated immorality and riot. The police said that they had no power to interfere unless they were called upon to do so. As they had seen, by the evidence given

  1215
  with regard to the Regent's Park murder, gangs organized themselves under recognized leaders, and the actual murder had been concocted in this place. These meetings were held nightly by bands of predatory youths who were the terror of the neighbourhood. How was it that this had come to be permitted? The story was a somewhat long one, but briefly it was as follows:—In 1756 the land had been bought by the Rev. George Whitfield for the purpose of erecting this chapel. All went well till 1828, when the lease ran out. In 1831 the trustees purchased the copyhold, and the chapel having been burnt down it was found necessary to mortgage the land. Only a part of the money having been paid off the mortgagee had foreclosed, and ever since that date litigation had been going on. In 1857 an injunction was obtained against the owner of the land, who attempted to remove gravestones, and later on he attempted to build on the land, but was prevented. In 1879 the Vestry of St. Pancras had endeavoured to improve this piece of ground by planting it, but were restrained by the owner. The owner again attempted to build, but was again prevented, and finding it was impossible to make money out of the land in this way he had hit upon the ingenious device of inviting all the perambulating fairs in the country to come there. Though an injunction had been obtained to restrain this use of the ground during Divine Service, and though this injunction was afterwards extended, the nuisance still went on. A Bill had been brought in in the other House for the purpose of preventing such places being used for these purposes, but had, unfortunately, been blocked by the Government. He would not detain their Lordships longer, but would ask the Government the Question which stood in his name.
  THE PAYMASTER GENERAL (Earl BROWNLOW)said, that this ground had been closed for burials in 1853, and ever since that time it had been a source of a great deal of trouble, and legal proceedings of one sort or other had been going on with regard to it. Although something had been done in abatement, the place was still a great nuisance, and, being the resort of bad characters, greatly tended to increase crime in the neighbourhood. The Acts of Parlia-
  1216
  ment relating to the matter seemed somewhat obscure and vague, and, therefore, the Secretary of State had instructed the Treasury Solicitor to take proceedings with the object of ascertaining, by a judicial decision, the position of the matter, and whether the existing law was not sufficient to abate the nuisance referred to. Active steps were now being taken by the Solicitor to the Treasury. The Secretary of State thought that the law as it stood at present was sufficient to deal with the matter; but if it was not, Her Majesty's Government, being fully alive to the importance of the matter, would not shrink from taking such steps as would secure an alteration in the law.

ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)—THE MILITIA.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGH, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, What steps were contemplated in order to place in a more efficient state the Militia of Great Britain? said, that the Militia had rendered very great service to the country in years past on many occasions, and during the Crimean War their zeal in volunteering and the goodwill shown by the commanding officers had proved most beneficial to the regiments of the Line. There was no School of Musketry of any sort for the Militia, or musketry instructors, or any institution for the study of tactics, &c., and the complement of officers was not complete, consequent upon their position not being properly recognized. They were not able to parade before Her Majesty because they had not any shakos. The country would show the greatest ingratitude if it did not acknowledge the great services which the Militia had rendered to the regiments of the Line and the country at large. The Militia were not increasing as they ought to do, consequent, partly, upon the short service system, and also on account of their not receiving a fair share of public money to which they were entitled, but which was given to Forces of a newer description which had not been tried to the same extent. The only Constitutional Force which the Government had a right to call out or could depend on during a time of emergency, that he was aware of, was the Militia,
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, that it was of great advantage that the Militia should be encouraged as a Constitutional Force; but he was inclined to deny that it had been so much neglected as the noble and gallant Lord seemed to suppose. Looking at the recent Returns as to numbers, he thought the Militia would now compare well with the Force during the past 20 years, and that it did not show a bad position. It was perfectly true that the Militia was below its establishment; but if it could not be got up to its establishment at present, he thought that was owing to the greater demand for labour. This was a fact which should be always borne in mind, that the Militia was a most important feeder of the Line. Last year, or the year before, the Militia supplied something like 14,000 troops to the regiments of the Line. The noble and gallant Lord said that the Militia had no musketry instruction.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGH: No musketry instructor.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, that some 21,000 men in the Militia passed last year through the musketry course. It was well that these facts should be known, because the Militia ought to be kept before the country. He would venture to suggest that it would be very important if the Militia and Volunteers were organized into brigades and brought together, and exercised as far as possible as they would be in time of war. That would be useful not only to the troops engaged, but to the commanding officers. He would like to make one or two remarks on the debate the other day. He was not going to renew the discussion on the question of invasion; but it seemed to him that the reply of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury), who was not now in his place, to the noble and gallant Viscount (Viscount Wolseley), minimized more than was necessary the contingency of invasion, and might give a false sense of security. He (the Earl of Morley) was not an alarmist, but he had a reasonable desire that the country should be properly protected. There was a great difference between alarm and taking reasonable precautions. Surely it was the contemplation of an invasion that induced the nation to organize the Volunteer Force and to maintain the Militia. It was perfectly true that the Cabinet alone could be absolutely re-
  1218
  sponsible for the security of the country; but it seemed to him unnecessary to discourage the desire on the part of the country to guarantee itself against the contingency of an invasion, and remarks coming from high quarters such as those of the noble Marquess might tend to discourage that feeling. He believed the present Government had done a great deal towards organizing the Forces and placing the country in a better position for defence, and he ventured to hope they would continue in that course without giving way to extravagance, yet at the same time bearing in mind that it was essential that there should be an absolute guarantee against invasion.
  LORD NAPIER OF MAGDALAsaid, he entirely agreed with the noble and gallant Lord (Lord Ellenborough). He believed that the Militia and Volunteer Forces might be made a security against any danger of an invasion. The noble Marquess on a late occasion had said that with the Fleet that we possessed invasion would be impossible. It seemed to him, however, that the presence of the Fleet could not be insured at all times. He believed the Fleet would still maintain its superiority, both because the officers were well and highly instructed, and because the population was maritime at heart. He therefore believed that everything that it had been possible for the Navy to do in former times it would do again; but the presence of the Navy could not always be guaranteed. It had precious Colonies, a widespread commerce, coaling stations, and the two valuable fortresses in the Mediterranean to defend. At present everything was calm around; but it appeared to him that that was the very time to set our minds to the work and to carry out what reforms were required. Now they could be introduced not as the result of panic, but as the result of the most careful consideration. We were in peaceful relations with all the nations in Europe; but we must remember that though national interests might be inherited, national friendships are not often so. We could not tell what popular passions might not arise to create hostility towards us. Germany seized the proper opportunity for carrying out her requisite reforms, and they had seen the consequence. This country should take warning by Germany.

  1219
  If we had our Reserve Forces properly trained, commanded, instructed, and organized much in the same way that Germany organized her local forces, we might be secure against any enemy that could possibly attack us. He was sure that the material we had at our command, if properly trained, would be equal to any troops in the world. He considered it was the duty of the Government to do everything they could to make the Reserve Forces efficient. There was one thing which he thought ought to receive more attention in the Militia, and that was shooting. Greater facilities for practice ought to be afforded to the Militia. He was quite sure that a great deal was being done at the present time in the War Office, but that was no reason why efforts should not be made for the better organization of the Reserve Forces. The War Office was actively engaged in making plans of defence on paper; but unless the country came forward with the necessary funds the reforms would still remain only paper reforms.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, the noble Earl who spoke last but one referred to alarmists on the Cross Benches. All he could say was that as long as matters were allowed to remain in their present state he was perfectly ready to be considered an alarmist, especially when he found himself in the company of the gallant Field Marshal. The noble Earl said he was not an alarmist. No official was an alarmist in quiet times; but when war broke out the Government soon became dissatisfied with preparations which had more than satisfied them before. He was certain that on this question of armament there was only one thing to be done, and that was to keep on pegging away at whatever Government was in Office, though he believed the present Government had done more in this direction than any other. A great portion of the Militia Force was composed of boys between 15 and 19, who would be no use in time of war. So far as it went, the Militia was as efficient as it could be, but it was not in the condition in which our chief defence ought to be. The noble Earl asked what was the use of raising extra men for the Militia if they could not keep it full? No doubt, the Militia was not full, and had never been full since 1854, and he was glad his noble and gallant Friend
  1220
  had brought the matter under the attention of the House. In 1885 he felt it his duty to raise this very question of the Militia in their Lordships' House, and to move a Resolution to the effect that the Militia should be recruited up to its establishment. Both Front Benches opposed the Resolution, but after an interesting debate it was carried by a majority of four or five. On that occasion he analyzed the figures of the Militia, and showed that with an establishment of 128,069 men there were enrolled only 104,000; and, taking away those men under 19 and those in the Militia Reserve, deducting also the Artillery and one-fifth for casualties, the total number we could put in line was only 54,966. There was no difficulty in filling the ranks of the Police Force, and similarly no difficulty would be found in regard to the Militia if the pay was increased. The only other alternative was to resort to the ballot. This was the real remedy, but such was the force of Party feeling that he feared that if one Party proposed it the other Party would oppose it. When Mr. Cardwell introduced his Army reform scheme the late Lord Sandhurst stated that there then was a probability of the scheme including the ballot for the Militia. Unfortunately, it did not. Mr. Cardwell promised that under his scheme there would in 1880 be an Army Reserve of 80,000. But in the result it turned out that in 1888 the Reserve only amounted to 54,000. The Army Reserve was dependent upon the strength of the various regiments; but these, instead of being kept up to their full strength, were allowed to fall to half their proper numbers—namely, to about 500 men. Whether one looked at the Army, its Reserves, and the Militia, or the general organization of our Military Forces, the conclusion forced upon one was that things were in a very unsatisfactory condition. He admitted that Her Majesty's present Government were showing some appreciation of the real state of the case; but much remained to be done.
  LORD TRUROsaid, he regretted that it was the fashion in some quarters to style anyone who called attention to the present unsatisfactory condition of things an "alarmist." The charges made with respect to the Militia were that the force was below its proper strength, and that

  1221
  it was not provided with the things which were required for efficiency. In not providing butts, commissariat, and proper uniforms for every Militia regiment the Military Authorities were guilty of a dereliction of duty. Whether our Army was small or great, it was all-important that it should be efficient. He earnestly hoped that the defects which had been shown to exist would be remedied without delay.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS)said, that a mine had, as it were, been sprung upon him, for under cover of a limited Resolution speeches had been delivered ranging from the Militia to the Volunteers and Regulars, and from the time of Wellington and Waterloo to the present. He did not complain of this, as it showed the interest which was taken by their Lordships in everything which concerned the military defences of the country. As to what had been said about naval defence he must decline to go into the matter, as it was outside his province. With regard to the noble Lord's (Lord Ellenborough's) Question, he did not make any suggestions in a specific direction, but he understood that he specially referred to the equipments. It was, no doubt, a fact that the equipment of Militia regiments was not in all cases similar to the equipment of the Line. In the ordinary transactions of life, while they adopted that which was new, they did not altogether discard that which was old, but not obsolete. That was the policy which the War Office had adopted. Old equipment was used as long as it was sound and not obsolete; when it was really out of order new equipment was issued. While endeavouring to keep pace with the progress of invention the Military Authorities did not think it economical, wise, or necessary immediately to discard an old pattern whenever a new one was adopted. Should the Militia be embodied they would be served with precisely similar articles to those which were served out to the Line. Reference had been made to an occasion when the Militia were unable to appear before the Queen at Windsor with the Volunteers in consequence of deficiencies of uniform. He knew of no such occasion; but he knew that last year the Militia paraded before Her Majesty at Aldershot, and he believed
  1222
  that the War Office served out helmets to all the regiments concerned. The first six regiments that would be called upon for active service had been supplied with bottles, and should the whole Militia be embodied there were bottles in store with which they would be supplied. Reference had been made to the recommendation that the warrant officers should be reduced in number, and that the sergeant-majors should in future be non-commissioned officers instead of warrant officers. That recommendation had not as yet been approved by the War Office, and full consideration would be given to any objections that the Militia officers might raise. Then complaint had been made that many Militia regiments were not up to their establishment. As he had only recently told the House there were two reasons for this. One was that there had been a larger demand for labour during the last year; and the other, that there was now a great tendency to join the Volunteers. To those who thought that the system of the ballot ought to be adopted for the Militia he replied that if it were adopted the demand that extra Volunteer regiments should be raised would grow enormously, and thus the object of the advocates of the ballot would be frustrated. As to the comparison which had been made between the strength of the Army in 1864 and its strength in 1884 to show that it was less strong in the latter year, he had to say that the comparison was valueless, for an exactly contrary result could be obtained by comparing other years of the same period. He had been asked whether steps had been taken to secure that both the Volunteers and the Militia should be trained at the places where they would be mobilized in the event of war. He could not remember whether such steps had been taken that year; but he knew that the Secretary of State was very anxious that every unit of the Army should be trained occasionally at the very place where it would be mobilized at a time of attempted invasion. It was necessary, when considering this question, to remember that the men liked to be comfortable, and to be trained in places where they could enjoy themselves when off duty. When Volunteers went into camp they made the matter one of business, and they did not make it a picnic; when gathered for training it

  1223
  was expedient to have some regard to the attractions of the place and the means of enjoyment. The Southern Submarine Mining Militia was doing very well; but it had to be split up into smaller sections. One circumstance which distinguished submarine mining corps was this—in the North you could not get Militia, but you could get Volunteers with the greatest case, and the Volunteers were a magnificent force; while in the South you could get Militia but not Volunteers; but whether it were Militia or Volunteers they were equally efficient, and constituted an important addition to the force for the defence of our commercial ports and harbours. He appreciated the motives which led noble Lords to initiate this discussion—they wished to bring pressure to bear upon the Government to spend money. The Government had not shrunk and would not shrink from spending money where it was necessary, and this was shown by the fact that they had determined to spend £2,600,000 beyond the Estimates for the year for the purpose of putting the coaling stations and harbours of Imperial importance in a proper state of defence. This was a proof of their earnestness; but they would not be forced into extravagant and ill-considered expenditure which would waste money without benefit to the country. As regarded the organization of our Military Force, both Regular and Auxiliary, he believed that at no time within the last 10 or 15 years had so much attention been paid it by the Military Authorities. They had been in a favourable position for giving that attention, because we had not been engaged in any little wars, and men of intelligence and experience had been able to concentrate their attention upon it. The great question of mobilization—of the points at which men should be assembled, and how and in what numbers—had been carefully discussed by the Military Authorities in conjunction with the Secretary of State; and he believed the Army was in a far better position as regards equipment and assemblage in case of invasion than it was a few years ago. No steps were being taken just now to improve the efficiency of the Militia, because the Government were inclined to believe it was very efficient now. He admitted that if the Government could give it the same equipment as the Line it would be a
  1224
  smarter force; but the Government had to look at the purposes for which expenditure was required, and they could not do more than see whether the old equipments were serviceable and replace them where they were not.

IRELAND—THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD FITZGERALD, who had a Notice on the Paper that he would call the attention of the House to the judicial system of Ireland, and move a Resolution, said, this subject was one of very great importance. His objects in bringing it forward on his own responsibility were with the view of economy in the very large sum which was at present expended on the administration of law and justice in Ireland, and to attain efficiency in the great judicial power then existing, and to bring back to the Superior Courts the jurisdiction and authority which modern legislation had gradually filched away. In consequence of the legislation contemplated by Her Majesty's Government, and in order to assist him in the Motion he had intended to submit to their Lordships, he had moved for certain Returns on the 20th of April last. Those Returns had not as yet come in—at least they had not been laid upon the Table. Since this Notice had been put upon the Paper very great alterations had taken place, which had induced him to ask leave to withdraw his Motion, though he was not one who wished to put down a Motion of so great importance as this and then to withdraw it. In making this announcement to their Lordships he wished to state the reason why he adopted that course. First of all, a Bill dealing with the Irish Judicature, with the principles of which he entirely agreed, but which was subjected to very grave criticism, and which probably did not go far enough, was introduced on the 20th of February last; and he saw that from the pressure of other Business—he was not in the least suggesting that they had not a bonâ fide intention to press the measure forward—that Bill had been necessarily abandoned by the Government. In addition to that they had the Land Commission Bill—a Bill dealing very largely with the subject of the administration of Land Law in Ireland, and a Bill which would be open to very considerable contest. A great part

  1225
  of that Bill had also been abandoned for the present, and for it was to be substituted, as he understood—he was only speaking of what he read in the public Press—a Continuance Bill—that was to say, the powers of the Land Commission were to be continued by a clause in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill. In addition to that they had three other Bills—Mr. Healy's Bill and two others—dealing more or less with the administration of law and justice in Ireland, which would also have to be abandoned in the House of Commons. He merely wished to say that he was induced by these considerations to come to the conclusion that it would be inexpedient to involve their Lordships in a discussion which at the present moment would lead to no practical result, and to ask their Lordships to permit him to withdraw his Motion. But, before doing so, he hoped he was not exceeding his privileges or trespassing too far on their Lordships' indulgence if he offered a word of advice to the Government as to those and other measures connected with the administration of law and justice in Ireland. The subject was of so extensive a character that it could only be dealt with by the Government, and there would be no use in a private Member originating a measure dealing with it. What he would suggest was, that a small Commission should be appointed to consider the whole subject fully—whether a Departmental or a Royal Commission—and he had very large hopes that when they sat again after the holidays something practical would have been done in the matter which would present a solid foundation for legislation.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE)said, he was not aware of the terms of the Motion intended to be presented by the noble and learned Lord until he had unfolded its contents. There could be no doubt it embraced matters of the highest importance, some of them of a far-reaching character, and the noble and learned Lord would naturally present them with a weight and authority which would insure for them their Lordships' best consideration. With reference to the noble and learned Lord's suggestion for the appointment of a Committee or Commission, that would, of course, receive attention; but any proposals deal-
  1226
  ing with the judicature must be taken on the responsibility and the initiative of the Government, and he was not aware that the Government had found any difficulty in considering all these questions. The proposals did not appear to be new; they had been, from time to time, considered by successive Governments, and they would receive consideration before the Government introduced legislation on the subject. With regard to the Bills to which his noble and learned Friend had referred, he was not aware that the Bills introduced by private Members had been abandoned. The statement of the Government in the House of Commons only dealt with their own measures.

ARMY (AUXILIARY FORCES)—YEO-MANRY CAVALRY—CONTINGENT AND CLOTHING ALLOWANCES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  VISCOUNT GALWAYsaid, he rose to call attention to the contingent and clothing allowance to regiments of Yeomanry Cavalry; and to ask a Question. As their Lordships wore aware, the amount of allowance was £2 a-head, and it had to meet the whole requirements, not only of uniform, but also of saddlery, office expenses, and all the other claims that were made on a Yeomanry regiment. It was proposed to discontinue that allowance in the case of all Yeomen who were absent from the week's permanent duty, either owing to illness or with the leave of the commanding officer. Now, it must be clear that whether a Yeoman was at the drill or not the commanding officer would have spent the money on his uniform and saddlery so that he might appear efficient if he should be able to attend, and it was not too much to ask that in such a case the contingent allowance should be given. Did the War Office Authorities suppose that as the training only lasted 10 days, there might not be casual illness in which a man could not attend, or circumstances in which he might be compelled to ask leave of absence? In the Regular Army, when a private was ill, he had never heard that anything was deducted; and, unless he was misinformed, he believed that if a Volunteer was unable to attend his inspection, and was absent with leave, even then his allowance was continued. The Question he had to ask was whether commanding officers should

  1227
  not be able to give leave of absence from training, for sufficient cause, without being called upon to suffer by the allowance for the men being disallowed? There were great demands made upon the Yeomanry, and they had been fairly and well met. The Yeomanry consisted of 10,000 men ready to take the field with their horses at a moment's notice, and was it wise that so much discouragement should be thrown upon their officers? If it were the case that the War Office were determined to do away with the Yeomanry, it would be much fairer that they should say so frankly at once instead of going on year after year trying by false economies to make the Yeomanry inefficient, and then turning round and complaining of their inefficiency.
  THE MARQUESS OF BATHsaid, he thought the noble and gallant Viscount had not put the case at all too strongly. At the present moment the contingent allowance of £2 a man did not meet all the expenses of a Yeomanry regiment. The contingent allowance was really not more than sufficient to provide for accoutrements and clothing, and then there were extras which had to come from the common fund. As things were it was a matter of the greatest difficulty to maintain the Yeomanry regiments, and if the contingent allowance was to be struck off in the case of men absent through sickness, or by leave, the loss to the contingent fund would be such that eventually every regiment would have to be given up. He hoped that the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for War (Lord Harris) would be able to give a satisfactory answer.
  THE EARL OF CORKsaid, that, as one who had for a long time been a Yeomanry Colonel, he could bear testimony to the great difficulty that existed in keeping a Yeomanry regiment together. Of late years the body of men who chiefly constituted that force had suffered from the depression of the times; but, nevertheless, there had been an increase alike in numbers and efficiency, and it seemed rather hard that the present moment should be selected in order to make a change in the payment of the contingent fund. He thought it was hard that where leave of absence was given on account of sickness or unforeseen circumstances a colonel should be deprived of the £2. He agreed that
  1228
  the grant was quite indequate for keeping up a Yeomanry regiment as it ought to be, considering the expenses of band, stores, &c. He trusted, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government would reconsider this question; he was certain that Yeomanry Colonels did not wish to get more than they honestly earned; but unless some arrangement were made regiments would decrease, not only in numbers, but in their efficiency.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS)said, he was afraid that his answer would hardly satisfy his noble Friend; but he wished to bear testimony, both from practical and from official experience, to the exceedingly valuable nature of this force. He hoped that their Lordships would allow him to detain them for a little upon the general subject of the Yeomanry, for another reason than the question of the noble Viscount. He was glad that the subject of the Yeomanry had been raised by the noble Viscount, because he thought it was time that some answer was made to the sneering attacks made at various times and in various places against the Yeomanry by men who probably had never given a day's voluntary service to the country. A Report had been presented by the Estimates Committee of the House of Commons to both Houses of Parliament, dealing with the question of the Yeomanry, and in that Report it was said that the internal expenses of a Yeomanry corps had largely increased of late years, and that Colonel Eyre had stated to the Committee of the previous Session that formerly the corps had managed on their pay, but it was not managed in the same way now. Colonel Eyre was a distinguished Regular and Volunteer officer, but he had not served in the Yeomanry since 1864, and in his opinion Colonel Eyre was not exactly the best officer to be adduced as a witness of what the Yeomanry was at the present time. He must confess he thought that that Report was apt to convey to those who did not read the evidence some misconception of what Colonel Eyre had really said, which was that he remembered many years ago being in a Yeomanry regiment, and that that corps nearly lived on its pay. This was merely a reference to Colonel Eyre's own corps, and not to the whole force. The year 1864 was six years before Lord

  1229
  Cardwell had placed upon the Yeomanry additional requirements in order that they might earn the contingent and pay. Before 1870 no preliminary drill was required, while after that year nine additional drills were required. He thought, therefore, that it was only right that he should call attention to what was likely to raise some misconception in the minds of those who only glanced at the Report of the Estimates Committee, and did not read the evidence. Since Colonel Eyre had been in the Yeomanry Service, additional demands had been made by the country upon the force; and if any additional internal expenses had arisen since that time, those expenses had been laid on the corps by the demands of the country, and not by any extravagance on the part of the officers or men. In addition to these extra drills, musketry training was now more carefully attended to, besides signalling, ambulance, and other voluntary drills. The inspecting officer bore testimony to the anxiety of the men to render themselves efficient in many directions; and he could himself bear witness to the anxiety shown in all directions really to earn that which the country gave them. He would like also to show their Lordships that the Yeomanry was not an expensive Cavalry force. He would compare a typical efficient Volunteer with a typical efficient Yeoman. With the capitation grant, allowance for great coat, and expenses of travelling to the range, a Volunteer received about £2. A Yeomanry corps received £2 for each efficient trooper, and out of that the expense of saddlery had to come. For an efficient Volunteer out for six days there was an allowance of 12 s., which was expended on rations and what he might require. An efficient Yeoman out for 10 days received 7s. a day for the last eight days and 3s. 6d. for the other two, making a total of 63 s. That at first sight seemed to show that the Yeoman was better off than the Volunteer; but it must be remembered that he had to keep his horse during those 10 days. Again, Yeomanry were almost compelled to go into training in a town. It was dangerous to picket the horses out unless the weather was of the best. He knew of two cases last year where it had been done without any bad effect; but their Lordships would remember how hot the weather had been
  1230
  last year; he would be sorry to see horses picketed out in such weather as they had had during the last fortnight; and he thought that the claims on the country for loss of horses would be exceedingly heavy. The expenses of a Yeoman for forage and stabling during the 10 days could not be less than 35 s., and that left only 28 s. for rations and lodging, which, he thought, could not be considered a very extravagant sum, taking into consideration the risk of injury to the horse. As a matter of fact, it was absolutely impossible, except in the most favourable circumstances, for a man to cover his expenses by the pay he received. He was glad, therefore, to have this opportunity of showing that the Yeomanry were not an expensive force. He did not think, from the result of his own experience, that Volunteer Cavalry could be kept up in this country unless they were paid for the keep of the horses; and he did not think, therefore, that Volunteer Cavalry could exist beside the Yeomanry. With regard to the Question of the noble Viscount, there had been no change with regard to the Regulations this year, or if there had been a change it was one in favour of the Yeomanry. The Regulation before this year had been that the contingent allowance of £2 per man would be issued for each non-commissioned officer and private attending preliminary drill and permanent training; therefore, there was really no hardship in the fact that where a man was not shown to be efficient the financial authorities had declined to allow the grant. The change made this year was that a man had to be either at the preliminary drill or the permanent training, and that was obviously a change to the advantage of the Yeomanry. To that Regulation he thought the Government would have to adhere, for this reason—that unless a man was present on one of these two occasions the Government had no security at all that the man was efficient. What the Government would be willing to do was to make as large a concession as they could in the way of allowing a man to add on his attendance at preliminary drill to that at the permanent training, if he was unable to attend during the whole time. He was afraid, however, that they must insist on the man being in some way shown to be efficient, and that therefore it was im-

  1231
  possible for the Government to give way in the direction in which the noble Viscount asked them to do so.

LAND PURCHASE (IRELAND) ACT, 1885 —A SUPPLEMENTARY GRANT.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD FITZGERALD, in rising to ask the Prime Minister, Whether Her Majesty's Government intend to propose to Parliament before the adjournment a grant in supplement to the £5,000,000 advanced under the Land Purchase Act (Ireland), 1885? said, when he put down that Notice on the Paper he was not aware of the discussion which had taken place last night in "another place" on the subject. In answer to a Question, the Chief Secretary for Ireland was represented to have said that it was the intention of the Government during the present Session to make a proposal to take steps to prevent from expiring the powers given under the Act of 1885; and then in reference to a further Question put to him as to whether a cessation would take place in the administration of the Act unless legislation took place this Session on the subject, he was represented to have replied that it would. He had read that discussion with very considerable regret, because he thought that this subject, which was one above all political controversy, would have received more favourable consideration. What took place last night was by no means satisfactory, and it would render it necessary that a reply should be given to the Question of which he had given Notice, and which, in the absence of the Prime Minister, could be answered by his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor of Ireland or one of his Colleagues. The noble and learned Lord having stated in detail the circumstances under which the Land Purchase Act of 1885 had been introduced by the Lord Chancellor of Ireland on his first appearance in their Lordships' House, and was passed into law, and having pointed out the substantial advantages which it was calculated to confer upon the tenantry of Ireland, said the policy of that Act had met with general approval; and be recollected that in the discussion which had taken place upon it in that House on the occasion of its passing the noble Marquess at the head of the Government promised that if this tentative and
  1232
  moderate measure, as it was described by the noble Marquess, proved a success, the Government would be prepared to recommend to Parliament when the £5,000,000 were exhausted another sum of money, so as to secure the continuance of a measure which had proved to be a success. Last year they had before them another Land Bill, the whole of the second part of which, representing 17 or 18 clauses, was intended for the improvement of the administration of the Land Purchase Act, and he thought that the passing of these sections of that Bill was utterly useless if the Land Purchase Act was to be allowed to expire. He also recollected that he had on that occasion impressed upon the Government the necessity for providing a further fund to supplement the £5,000,000. The Land Purchase Act of 1885 had been a success, and a great success. He had called attention to this subject some three months ago, and he had taken pains, on his own responsibility, to get statistics as well as he could to lay before their Lordships, and he moved then, in reference to the administration of the £5,000,000, for a searching Return which would have shown its application, and whether any balance remained. Unfortunately, that Return had not yet been laid on the Table of the House, but he believed that the statistics which he had then laid before the House were wholly uncontrovertible. On that occasion he called attention to this—that out of the £5,000,000 which had been granted by the Government £1,945,530 had been taken by Ulster alone, and that that sum had been distributed among 7,667 tenant farmers, who had since become owners of their holdings. They were small tenant farmers, and they were now paying off the money they had borrowed. In Munster the sum was less, but it was over £1,000,000. In Leinster he thought the sum expended was about £1,110,000; in Connaught it was less still, the people not being able to take advantage of the Act. He called attention to the fact that the applications then before the Land Purchase Commissioners were sufficient to exhaust the whole fund provided if those applications were successful. He stated that, in addition, in one office of solicitors alone applications had come in to the extent of £600,000, going far beyond

  1233
  what then remained in the hands of the Land Purchase Commissioners untouched. He had since been in Dublin—a few days ago—and he met there a gentleman by accident who had a larger share in negotiating purchases and sales between landlords and tenants than any other, and he addressed him very anxiously on this subject. He was informed by him that claims were coming in very considerably, and that the parties would not go on because the cost was considerable, and because it was uncertain whether there would be any fund to meet it. The administration of this fund had been successful in another way. He believed his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor of Ireland (Lord Ashbourne) would be able to say whether he was correct or not; but he believed that in the districts in which peasant proprietors had been created by the operation of this Land Purchase Act peace and order prevailed—and that those who had now got an interest in the land, and who would ultimately become the sole owners of it, were the best maintainers of law and order. He therefore thought he was justified in saying that the Land Purchase Act of 1885 had been a success, and a great success. It had conferred, as it was intended to confer, large benefits upon the small tenants who became owners of their farms under it. The case now stood in a peculiar position in which it ought not to stand. He observed in an article from the Dublin correspondent of The Times of yesterday a statement expressing the grave anxiety that existed in the public mind with regard to the continuance of the operation of this Act, and that the uncertainty that prevailed on the subject was doing very great mischief, and the estimate was that the claims beyond the amount which he had stated on a former occasion now before the Land Purchase Commissioners exceeded £1,000,000. Three months ago, when he put a question on the subject, he received an answer that the matter was under consideration. He thought, therefore, that he was justified in bringing the matter forward again, in order that the people might be re-assured that the benefits of the Act would not be allowed to cease. In order to prevent the discontinuance of the operation of the Act, he thought it was absolutely necessary that a supplemental fund
  1234
  should be granted before they seperated for the holidays. He hoped to get a favourable reply from his noble and learned Friend.
  LORD VENTRYsaid, he could hardly understand how Her Majesty's Government, with their previous experience, could hesitate to supplement the sum provided by the valuable measure commonly called Lord Ashbourne's Act by a further advance. There were reports in the air that Her Majesty's Government contemplated at some future time bringing forward a much more comprehensive measure, and on different lines. Whether those reports were true or not he was not, of course, in a position to say; but he was sure that some further extension of Lord Ashbourne's Act would add to the data so necessary for the preparation of a measure of a more important character. He would say nothing with regard to land purchase in Ulster; but he believed that Kerry, the county with which he was connected, was—outside Ulster—amongst those which had most largely availed themselves of the Act. He believed he was perfectly accurate when he said that the number of defaulters among tenants who had taken advantage of the Act in that county was almost nil. There could be no doubt whatever that there was a large number of tenants throughout the country who were looking with considerable anxiety for an extension of this Act with a view of availing themselves of it, and who would be much disappointed if they found that the Government were not going to adopt that course. He would also like to say that the £5,000,000 would not have been much sooner expended if the administration of this Act had been more perfect; but, rather than that the Act should be allowed to expire, both tenants and landlords would be glad to see it extended with all its faults and deficiencies.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE)said, he had had no opportunity of communicating with the Prime Minister with regard to this question, and he could only refer to the answers given in the House of Commons last night by the First Lord of the Treasury and the Chief Secretary for Ireland on the part of the Government. With regard to the statement made by his noble and learned Friend in reference to the subject, it was

  1235
  extremely clear and interesting, and he had listened to it with much personal sympathy. The operation of the Act had decidedly and unquestionably been attended with beneficial results throughout Ireland generally, and he believed that the tenants who had purchased had found it to be to their distinct benefit. He believed that it had a very good effect on them in every way—with respect to their pecuniary as well as with respect to their other interests; and certainly the working of the Act had shown that they were alive fairly and reasonably to the necessity of complying with the obligations which they had undertaken of paying the instalments. The statement made very recently in the other House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer indicated that the instalments had been paid with extraordinary regularity, and went to show that the operation of the Act had been successful. He had not heard of the case of any tenants who had availed themselves of the provisions of the Act who did not find a benefit in their condition, or had expressed any regret whatever for having availed themselves of it. However, he was afraid that he was not in a position to supplement or go beyond the statement made in the other House yesterday, and which his noble and learned Friend had referred to.
  THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORDsaid, he was afraid that if nothing was done before Parliament separated much disappointment would be caused. If no more money were granted for the purposes of the Act what were the landlords and tenants to do? Would the noble and learned Lord tell the House what his advice was? Many tenants were anxious to purchase their farms. Would the noble and learned Lord advise them to do so? If some statement were not made, the whole country would be reduced to chaos. Landlords would be asking for their rent; the tenants would answer that they were going to purchase; and the landlord would be obliged to say—"I cannot sell, because I do not know what the Government intend to do." Would the noble and learned Lord recommend the landlords and tenants to continue their arrangements as before, or to drop them altogether? From his own knowledge, he did not believe a more useful or more
  1236
  successful Act had ever been passed. He had had considerable experience of sales under the Act of 1870, which was not nearly so advantageous to the tenants as the noble and learned Lord's Act, and the instalments were being most regularly paid, notwithstanding the depression of the times. He was afraid, however, unless the Government were prepared to give a further grant, it would give rise to a feeling of despair among a large body of tenants who were anxious to purchase.
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, he had spoken as fully as he could on the statement of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Fitzgerald), but he was not in a position to give any advice. There was nothing more difficult than to advise people in regard to their own affairs. He had no doubt landlords and tenants would be guided by that excellent discretion and good sense which people generally brought to bear upon their own private affairs. He was sure that his noble Friend (the Marquess of Waterford) would himself consider the subject with an anxious desire to arrive at a sound and wise conclusion.
  LORD O'NEILLsaid, he thought it had been clearly shown from all parts of the House that this Act had worked very well indeed. Was it too late this Session to bring in a Bill to provide more money under the Act? He could not help thinking it might be possible to carry such a Bill through if the Government were determined to do so, and he had no doubt, from what he had heard, that it would give great satisfaction to everybody concerned.

  LIMITED PARTNERSHIPS BILL [H.L.]
  Moved that the Bill be re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House forthwith; agreed to (The Lord FitzGerald); Bill re-committed accordingly: Moved that the Lord Kintore (E. Kintore) do take the chair in the Committee; agreed to (The Viscount Cross): House in Committee: Bill reported without amendment: Amendments made: Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 213.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Seven o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Eleven o'clock.