Lords Sitting of 5 July 1888

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Supreme Court of Judicature Act (Ireland) (1877) Amendment*(199).
Second Reading—Victoria University (163).
Committee—Habitual Drunkards Act (1879) Amendment (No. 2) (138).
Committee—Report—High Courts in India (184).
Report—Liability of Trustees (111–201).
Royal Assent—Consolidated Fund (No. 2) [51 & 52 Vict. c. 16]; Copyright (Musical Compositions) [51 & 52 Vict. c. 17]; North Sea Fisheries [51 & 52 Vict. c. 18].
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS—Committee—Local Government (No. 7) (on re-comm.)* (150–200).
Third Reading—Local Government (Poor Law) (No. 7)* (164); Tramways (No. 2)* (166); Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland)* (179), and passed.
Royal Assent—Local Government (Highways) [51 & 52 Vict. c. lxxii]; Local Government (Port) [51 & 52 Vict. c. lxxiii]; Local Government (Ireland) (Dublin Markets) [51 & 52 Vict. c. lxxxviii]; Local Government (Ireland) (Coleraine, &c.) [51 & 52 Vict c. lxxxix].

IRELAND—POLICY OF THE GOVERNMENT—VOTE OF CONFIDENCE.

  NOTICE OF MOTION.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: My Lords, a rumour has reached me, the authenticity of which I do not know, that we have recovered that freedom of debate on Irish questions which was so seriously questioned the other night by certain noble and learned Lords on account of pending legal proceedings. I do not know whether that rumour is true or
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  not; but in the meantime I wish to give Notice that on an early date, to be fixed later, I shall move the following Resolution:—
  "That in the opinion of this House Her Majesty's Government deserves the support of Parliament in securing to the subjects of the Queen in Ireland the full enjoyment of personal freedom in all their lawful transactions, and in protecting them from the coercion of unlawful combinations."

LIABILITY OF TRUSTEES BILL.
(The Lord Herschell.)
LIABILITY OF TRUSTEES BILL.

  (NO. 111.) REPORT OF AMENDMENTS.
  Amendments reported (according to order).
  On the Motion of Lord HERSCHELL, Amendment made in the title after ("duties") by inserting ("powers").
  Clause 1 (Short title and definition).
  On the Motion of Lord HERSCHELL, Amendment made in page 1, line 6, by leaving out ("except clause 13 thereof"); in line 11, at the end of subsection 3, by adding ("and also an official trustee of charitable funds").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 2 (Receipt of money by solicitor as agent).
  On the Motion of Lord HERSCHELL, Amendment made in page 1, line 22, by leaving out ("handing over") and inserting ("producing").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 7 (Statute of Limitations may be pleaded by trustees).
  On the Motion of Lord HERSCHELL, Amendment made in page 3, by leaving out Clause 7, and inserting—
  7. (1.)—"In any action or other proceeding against a trustee or any person claiming through him in which the claim is not founded upon any fraud or fraudulent breach of trust to which the trustee was party or privy, or is not to recover trust property, or the proceeds thereof, retained or received by the trustee and converted to his use, the following provisions shall apply:—

  (a.) All rights and privileges conferred by any statute of limitations shall be enjoyed in the like manner and to the like extent as they would have been enjoyed in such action or other proceeding if he had not been a trustee:

  (b.) If the action or other proceeding is brought to recover money or other property, and is one to which the preceding provision does not apply, he shall be entitled to the benefit of and be at liberty to plead the lapse of time as a bar to such action or other proceeding in the like manner and to the like extent as if the

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  claim had been against him in an action of debt for money had and received, but so nevertheless that the statute shall not be deemed to begin to run against a beneficiary unless and until his interest shall be an interest in possession:

  (2.) This section shall apply only to proceedings commenced after the passing of this Act."
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 9 (Powers of investment).
  LORD HERSCHELLsaid, that two different objections had been taken to this clause. On the one hand, it was said that it would entail an application to the Court in every case, and on the other, by those interested in Colonial Stocks, that those Stocks might be injuriously affected by the decision of the Judge. There were some Colonial Stocks which were a good security, and others which could not be regarded as such. The difficulty was to find the dividing line. He thought that might be done by providing that the Stock to be invested in should be Stock of the first class in which a trustee might properly invest. Such a provision would act beneficially by reminding Colonial Governments that if their finances were not properly watched over their Stocks might cease to be of the first class. He thought it would be satisfactory to the Colonial Agents, and that the Colonies would feel that it might be in their power by careful finance to make their Stocks of the first class. He begged, therefore, to move the Amendment which stood in his name.
  Amendment moved,
  In page 4, subsection 1, leave out from ("In") in line 39 to ("1875") in line 40 inclusive, and insert ("In nominal or inscribed stock issued by the corporation of any municipal borough, or by any county authority under any Act of Parliament or provisional order authorising the same.")—(The Lord Herschell.)
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Lord KNUTSFORD)said, that he had been in conversation more than once with the Agents General and other leading men of the Colonies who had taken a great interest in this subject. They all felt, whether their Stocks were likely to be invested in or not, considerable distrust in the proposal that a Court should be allowed to pick out certain Stocks for investment. After full deliberation, he entirely agreed with the noble and learned Lord that there ought to be an automatic arrangement by which no Colony should be
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  favoured, but the Stocks deserving of trust might be taken up by trustees; and the arrangement proposed appeared to him to secure that the Stocks in which investments might be made would be first-class Stocks.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, he would have been glad if the clause had been left in its original form, as he thought the sanction of the Court would have been sufficient to meet almost every case that might arise. He wished to express his thanks to the noble and learned Lord, and the Members of the Committee who worked with him, for the introduction of the Bill. The Bill gave a large amount of relief to trustees, and the only criticism he could possibly pass upon it was that it did not go quite far enough. He was so far Radical in his opinions on this point that he would like to see the appointment of an Official Trustee. However, so far as the Bill went, he was thankful for it.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 11 (Amendment of National Debt (Conversion) Act, 1888).
  On the Motion of Lord HERSCHELL, Clause struck out.
  Clause 12 (Re-enactment of power contained in 23 & 24 Vict. C. 145).
  On the Motion of Lord HERSCHELL. Clause struck out, and the following Clause inserted:—
  (Trustees of renewable leaseholds may renew.)
  "It shall be lawful for any trustees of any leaseholds for lives or years which are renewable from time to time, either under any covenant or contract or by custom or usual practice, if they shall in their discretion think fit, and it shall be the duty of such trustees, if thereunto required by any person having any beneficial interest, present or future or contingent, in such leaseholds, to use their best endeavours to obtain from time to time a renewed lease of the same hereditaments on the accustomed and reasonable terms, and for that purpose it shall be lawful for any such trustees from time to time to make or concur in making such surrender of the lease for the time being subsisting, and to do all such other acts as shall be requisite in that behalf; but this section is not to apply to any case where by the terms of the settlement or will the person in possession for his life or other limited interest is entitled to enjoy the same without any obligation to renew the lease or to contribute to the expense of renewing the same."
  Bill to be read 3a on Tuesday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 201.)

VICTORIA UNIVERSITY BILL.—(No. 163.)
(The Lord Herschell.)
VICTORIA UNIVERSITY BILL.—(No. 163.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD HERSCHELL, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, explained that its object was to enable the University to hold lands in Mortmain, provided they disposed of them within a certain time. The 2nd section would place the Victoria University in the same position as the Universities of Cambridge and London with respect to examinations.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a—(The Lord Herschell.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.
  House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.