Lords Sitting of 20 February 1888

OFFICE OF WORKS AND PUBLIC BUILDINGS.—OBSERVATIONS.
LORD LAMINGTON, in rising to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the constitution of the Office of Works and Public Buildings, and to the unsatisfactory state of the public buildings of the Metropolis, said, he brought the subject forward thus early in the Session because of his great disappointment, which no doubt their Lordships shared, at finding that not one of the public improvements connected with the
842
Office of Works had been carried out during the Recess. Whether it was the new Admiralty and War Office, the alterations to be made in Parliament Street, or the new buildings of the National Portrait Gallery, nothing had been done. The facts in reference to the former of these promised buildings constituted a history which read very like a romance. In 1866–22 years ago—the matter was brought before Parliament, and it was decided that new buildings must be constructed. Nothing was done, however. In 1869 a Bill was brought in giving power for the acquisition of a site. In 1872 the question was again brought before Parliament, and in 1877 another Committee was appointed, and the Report which it issued deprecated in strong terms the continuance of the existing state of things. Nothing, however, was done, and nothing material had been done up to the present day. The Government having acquired the Spring Gardens site for £490,000 in 1882, designs for the new buildings were asked for in 1884. No further practical steps were taken, and in 1887 the condition of things remained the same. It should be borne in mind that all this time we were paying £33,000 for the hire of buildings,representing£1,000,000. Only last week a Report on the Civil Establishments was issued, which called attention to the miserably inadequate accommodation and the multiplicity of small rooms in the War Office and Admiralty, as shown by the fact that there were comprised in the War Office 19 houses and 289 rooms occupied by 805 persons. The Report continued—
"We strongly recommend, in the interest of economy and efficiency alike, the new War Office should not be delayed; nor is the consideration to be neglected that work is at present done under conditions which are not favourable from any point of view, sanitary or otherwise, to its being well done. These observations apply with equal force to the Admiralty buildings, and in both offices we believe that a considerable reduction in expenditure and great improvement in efficiency would follow a concentration of work."
A similar story could be told of the action of the authorities in the case of the National Portrait Gallery. When the pictures were removed to Bethnal Green Museum a promise was given by Mr. Gladstone that a Vote should be taken and a permanent gallery erected.

843
Nothing, however, was done, and he now asked whether there was to be still further delay? He did not wish by his observations to reflect upon the management of the Office of Works. It was the system that was at fault. How could it be thought that any special great work would be done when our system was such that in a period of 30 years there had been 18 First Commissioners? He would appoint two eminent architects, men of high cultivation, as permanent officers of the Department of Works, to act with the First Commissioner for the time being, and to this Board should be intrusted the discussion and determination of the plans. Under their supervision we might expect something like continuity in the work of the Department. It was hopeless to look for such continuity under First Commissioners who were changed with every change of Government. At any rate, the present ridiculous way of conducting important works ought not to be allowed to continue any longer, and arrangements ought to be made to obviate present inconvenience and to secure public buildings that should be worthy of the country. He left the question with the Government.
LORD HENNIKERsaid, their Lord-ships would be glad to have heard the noble Lord speak upon a subject in which he had taken great interest for many years past. The noble Lord had suggested very great changes in the constitution of the Office of Works. Personally, in the position he occupied, as only answering for the Department in that House, he could hardly give an opinion on the noble Lord's plan, which appeared to involve so much change in the present arrangements as to raise a question for the Cabinet rather than for the Department. The noble Lord had been rather severe upon the Office of Works; but, from his own short experience, he thought the Department hardly deserved the criticisms of the noble Lord. No doubt there had been failures in the Office, as there had been in others. But he must remind their Lordships what were the functions of the Office of Works. They were, first of all, to maintain all public buildings that were at present erected; and, secondly, to provide new ones when they were required. In this way only the Department was an important agency
844
as to architecture; even then in only a few cases, as a great deal they had to do was of a purely utilitarian character. There really was no scope for architectural fancy. With regard to the architecture of important public buildings such as the Royal Courts of Justice, plans and designs were usually obtained by competition, and the successful architect was intrusted with the execution of the work. In these circumstances he felt that the Department might be considered fairly competent to deal with the work it had to undertake. If the Department had the additional officers suggested by the noble Lord, men of high technical and artistic qualifications, it would not be strengthened in any way for the ordinary work of the Office. On what might be regarded as extraordinary occasions every scheme which was put before the Office of Works for new buildings was submitted to Parliament; and, in the opinion of the First Commissioner as well as himself, it was doubtful whether an increase in the number of tastes, if he might so call it, upon the Board would improve the schemes or advance their progress. It was possible that there might be greater activity in the Office, and more schemes might be put forward; but then that raised the question whether Parliament would grant money to carry out these new schemes. In this practical age there was some difficulty in persuading Parliament to spend public money on fine buildings. Therefore, he could not see that there would be any great advantage in increasing the staff of the Office in the way proposed, increasing the expense of the Office, and making it of more importance. With regard to the Admiralty and the War Office, the noble Lord had stated what had happened. A good many plans had been under consideration. The plan of Messrs. Leeming and Leeming was adopted. It was put up to competition as usual, and the work was actually begun. There had been several plans thought of from time to time; at last this plan had been adopted. He might mention that the judges of the plans were Mr. W. H. Smith, Mr. Shaw Lefevre, and two architects—Mr. Christian and Mr. Hardwick; but it was stopped on the appointment of a Committee by the House of Commons in 1885. This Committee did not sit, on account of the dissolution of Parliament; but another Committee was

845
appointed last year, which reported against the plans. The noble Lord could hardly blame the Office of Works for the delay resulting from the action of Parliament. In obedience to the Report of the last Committee, the Office was having plans prepared to carry out that Committee's recommendations. With respect to the National Portrait Gallery, their Lordships would recollect that in 1885 the galleries were pronounced to be unsafe, and nothing could be done but remove the portraits for safety to Bethnal Green, where they had been greatly appreciated. Three or four times as many people had seen the pictures as visited South Kensington Gallery in the same time. It was only proposed that the pictures should stay at Bethnal Green until a permanent home could be provided; and the provision of that home depended upon the necessary grant being made by Parliament. There had been no delay on the part of the Office of Works, whose plans would be ready directly the money was granted. Moreover, the Chief Commissioner had given no pledge that a new building would be erected at once; but he said he would be very glad if a permanent home could be found for this collection. He had, therefore, committed no breach of faith in the matter. The pictures were only on loan where they were. That was distinctly understood. With regard to Parliament Street improvements, the delay had arisen not in consequence of any action of the Office of Works, but because the Company had not as yet complied with the condition which Parliament imposed in the Private Bill before allowing the work to be commenced—namely, that £500,000 should be subscribed before the work was begun. That provision had, no doubt, rendered it difficult for the Company to raise money; but the money would be forthcomig, although it would, perhaps, come in slower than would otherwise have been the case. The Office had no power to pull down houses in Parliament Street. It was purely a matter for the Company to deal with under their Private Act. Meanwhile, they might congratulate themselves that the Office of Works had secured a scheme for pulling down the old buildings in Parliament Street before any other work was begun. This and other advantages his right honourable Friend the First Commissioner had
846
secured for the public. He thought that he had answered the Questions of his noble Friend, and that he had justified the action taken by the Office of Works.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYwished to say a word or two upon this subject, as he had once occupied the position of First Commissioner of Works. He did not think that in calling attention to the condition of Government offices, and in laying to some extent censure on the First Commissioner of Works, the noble Lord had quite laid the saddle on the right horse. Neither was he quite certain that the alterations suggested by the noble Lord were such as to bring about a remedy for the state of things of which he complained. One, at least, of the questions which the noble Lord had dealt with was due to what many of them had cause to regret—namely, the constant change in the Administrations of the country in the last two years. This brought about a change of policy in many respects, and in other offices than the Department of Works. With regard, for instance, to the question of the Admiralty and War Offices, the Government of which he had the honour to be a Member had a policy in which he confessed that it was not very enthusiastic. But it was a policy—the design of Messrs. Leeming & Co. It was a distinct and intelligible policy, and the Government which next came into Office reversed that policy and dismissed the project to the limbo of many other projects. That was the cause not merely of delay in the proper organization of the Admiralty and War Office buildings, but it was also the cause of a very considerable sum of money being expended in the shape of a fine to the architects. He did not think that the First Commissioner who was his Successor could properly be blamed for the change in Imperial policy on the part of successive Governments. As to Parliament Street, that was a very important question, but he thought that his noble Friend who spoke last had amply answered the coble Lord who introduced the subject. The question was not one which was in any degree dependent upon the action of the First Commissioner of Works. The question really depended upon a clause which was inserted in the Bill last year, which stipulated that no part of the buildings should be pulled down until a certain portion of the subscribed capital

847
had been raised. Parliament Street was one of the great permanent questions of the Office of Works. There was the question of the Burlington House Colonnade, but the question of Parliament street was more important than that, and it would always beset the Office of Works until some scheme was brought forward by a solvent company which enabled a profit to be made out of a process of a most expensive kind. There he thought again, that the blame ought to be laid upon the First Commissioner. If the noble Lord had made a practical proposal, founded on the instances he had cited, it would have been a matter of vast importance. If they once let loose a board of architects, as he had suggested, a very strong supervision and control would be required. While such a Board would be going one way, the Board of Treasury would be going another, and he ventured to suggest to the noble Lord that unless his project was sustained by a Board of Treasury, such as he had had no experience of in his short official career—a board of a most blind, lavish, and inconsiderate description—it would be impossible that such a plan could be successful.
LORD HENNIKERwished to say, with regard to the remark of the noble Earl, that the scheme of Messrs. Leeming was thrown over in consequence of the change of Government, that the Committee appointed by the late Government, of which the noble Earl was a member, was re-appointed last year, and he thought that he had stated that the change of scheme was entirely in consequence of Parliamentary action and not because of any action on the part of the Board of Works.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYadmitted that that was so, but said had the late Government remained in Office, and been supported by a majority, they could have carried out their policy with regard to the new Admiralty and War Office.
LORD GRIMTHORPEsaid, he entirely agreed with the noble Earl as to the danger of introducing what might be called a Board of Consulting Architects. He believed he was present when the plan of the new Law Courts was discussed more or less by the Royal Institute of British Architects, and he was very much struck with what the
848
President of that day said. He said that he was far from approving the plan, and that probably most of his audience would agree with him; but, inasmuch as Mr. Street had been selected to carry out the plan, it was the duty of the British nation to submit themselves to Mr. Street. He had some dealings himself many years ago with several Commissioners of Works while the Westminster Clock was being constructed. Some of them were extremely capable of carrying on the business, a great deal more so than any architect. He was bound to say that the best of them all was Sir Benjamin Hall, little as he agreed with his political opinions. He could say the same of Mr. Ayrton, who introduced the new form of agreements with architects which prevented the increase in Estimates to which the noble Lord had referred. During the construction of the Westminster clock the solicitors of the Office asked him about a form of contract which was generally made with builders. He told him that form would never enable the Office to control the architects, or prevent the enormous increase upon the estimates which the noble Lord had truly spoken of. And Mr. Ayrton adopted a new one. He suspected, from something he had heard since, that form had been departed from, but to what extent he did not know. He mentioned this as a warning, and urged that Mr. Ayrton's arrangement should substantially be reverted to when any great works were to be carried out. With regard to the new Law Courts, Mr. Street was appointed architect by Lord John Manners, and the competition might as well never have taken place. Although it was given out that convenience was the chief thing to be attended to, Mr. Street's plans were notoriously defective therein, and, architecturally, it was considered the worst great public building in the world, and in the matter of convenience it unquestionably was the worst. Mr. Street was determined to sacrifice everything to his Gothic and ecclesiastical prejudices; and the great hall was made simply to gratify his vanity, that he might say he had made the widest vaulted hall in England, and yet it looks the narrowest, and is utterly useless besides. All this he was afraid he must say was the result of the present system; but he must add that the noble

849
Lord's suggestion for improving the system would, he feared, make it worse. Appointing a strong permanent secretary who would control architects and direct his masters as permanent officials sometimes did, might be an improvement, but that he would not then discuss. As to the plans for the new Admiralty and War Office, he had read the Report of the Committee of last year, and, as far as he could judge, he agreed with it. Perhaps he might be allowed to mention a very humble matter connected with that Office. Some 20 years ago, when he had to come down to that House daily, he used to come down the steps near the Duke of York's Column. He never did so in frosty weather without fear of falling. Somebody persuaded the Commissioner of Works to put up an iron railing on each side in order that people going up and down the stops might be able to lay hold of it; but so simple a thing could not be left to an ironmonger, but some architect must be called in, and, accordingly, a railing as thick as his arm, supported on large square pillars, was put up at some distance from the wall. Thereupon the boys found the railings the most convenient place in all London to slide down, and the rails became useless for everybody else. That might easily have been stopped by putting in a few spikes, which any ironmonger in London could have done in two days. But the ingenuity of the Office and the architect were not equal to that, and so the railings were entirely swept away and had not been replaced to this day. Therefore, in slippery weather he went round another way to avoid those steps. There were steps in various other parts of London, and particularly under Charing Cross station, where the Metropolitan Board of Works had done what was wanted by a simple thin rail, which made the steps quite safe. He hoped, therefore, that the Commissioner of Works would condescend to employ an ironmonger to enable people to go down the steps of the Duke of York's Column safely in frosty weather, and to help infirm people to get up in all weathers.
LORD STRATHEDEN AND CAMPBELL: My Lords, I wish to make two observations—one in which I quite concur with the noble Lord who has brought the Notice forward (Lord Lamington);
850
one in which I may appear to differ from something he has mentioned incidentally. I much approve the course he has adopted in pointing to the imperfection of our public buildings and of the Board of Works, to which they are in some degree to be attributed. On the whole of that subject, Mr. White, the secretary to the Institute of Architects, not long ago produced a volume which abounds in luminous materials to support the general position of my noble Friend this evening. The noble and learned Lord who has just sat down, in an amusing speech, referred to his own protest against the scheme of the New Law Courts. It is curious that the late Mr. Fergusson—so great an architectural authority—when he became for a short time the regular adviser of the Board, was forced to leave it, because upon that scheme his counsel was entirely disregarded. However, the point on which I cannot go with my noble Friend who opened the debate is as to censure of the Government for not having carried out the Public Offices Site Act and the plan of Messrs. Leeming for a new construction in Spring Gardens. On the contrary, the Government appear to me to merit praise for having left that Act, which is entirely optional, unexecuted. The arguments against proceeding on it have been so often stated that it would be improper to repeat them. They have been given in a number of deRates, and in a Protest which was signed by many of your Lordships. They were repeated often by our lamented Friend the former Chairman of Committees. Beyond that, a deputation of the architects impressed them on the late Lord Iddesleigh when he was First Lord of the Treasury. Last of all, a Committee of the House of Commons has decisively adopted them. If, therefore, anything is said in favour of reverting to that plan, it is necessary to remind the House under what circumstances it has been discarded, so that we may guard to some extent the equilibrium of the Government.
LORD LAMINGTONexplained that he had not suggested that there should be a consulting board of architects, but that there should be a board, two Members of which should be permanent, to assist the First Commissioner in carrying out works which had been determined upon, and for which the House

851
of Commons had voted the money. What he complained of was that under the present system nothing was ever done at all, and decisions made 20 years ago were still unexecuted. He wanted the Government to keep a permanent control over that Office.

ARMY—ROYAL BARRACKS, DUBLIN— INSANITARY CONDITION.

  RESOLUTION.
  EARL BEAUCHAMP, in rising to move—
  "That a humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying that the Return of all cases of febrile disease in the Dublin Garrison since January 1881, ordered by this House to be printed 9th September 1887, be continued to 31st December 1887"—
  said, the matter to which that Return referred was a very serious one. There had been constant complaints for many years, yet nothing had been done by the War Office to improve the sanitary condition of the garrison which the Return disclosed. Within the last few weeks three very grave cases had occurred among the officers of the garrison; and their Lordships must see that whatever affected the health of the officers must also affect that of the men. If the officers were living under insanitary conditions, much more must the men composing the rank and file of the garrison be doing so. The unwholesome conditions in which the Dublin Garrison were placed were a source of serious expense and loss to the Army. The Army Medical Report for 1884 was presented only in 1886, and he thought it was a great pity that statistics of that description should be submitted to Parliament so long after date, as it prevented their being turned to as useful account as they otherwise might be. Taking, however, the Return for 1884, he found in regard to enteric fever that Dublin showed the greatest number of cases. Again, he found in the same Report in respect to invaliding that the highest ratio of admissions to hospital per 1,000 men occurred in the Dublin district. He urged Her Majesty's Government to remedy this serious injury which was being done to the troops. It might be said that the question of expense stood in the way, but he was quite sure that no one would grudge any expense which was incurred in maintaining Her Majesty's Army in health and strength.
  852
  Moved, "That a Return of all cases of febrile disease in the Dublin Garrison since January 1881, ordered to be printed 9th September 1887, be continued to 31st December 1887."—(The Earl Beauchamp.)
  LORD HERSCHELLsaid, he wished to add a word to the remarks of the noble Earl, and to point out to the Under Secretary of State for War the extreme urgency and importance of this question. He had studied the Returns, and it was really appalling to consider the number of cases of fever which had occurred, enteric and otherwise. The Return for the first half of 1887 pointed to the same conclusion as the Returns for the whole of 1886. From what he had personally heard, he had reason to believe that matters were not in the slightest degree better during the last part of 1887 than they were during the earlier part of the year. It was not right to subject our troops to insanitary conditions which could be avoided by attention, and even, if necessary, by the expenditure of money. The fact that the remedy would be costly was no sort of justification or excuse for sending men to a place where they must contract a serious and dangerous disease.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS)said a Report had been received as to the state of Dublin Barracks from Dr. Grimshaw, Registrar General of Births and Deaths, and Sir A. Cameron, Medical Officer of Health for Dublin. Her Majesty's Government had not the slightest desire or intention of shutting their eyes to the serious condition of the barracks in Dublin. The Report pointed out several unhealthy conditions about the barracks, and he would suggest to the noble Earl that this Report should be laid on the Table of the House and the Motion of the noble Earl for the continuation of the Return of febrile cases withdrawn. The Report would strengthen the case of the noble Earl as to the insanitary condition of the barracks without the continuation of that voluminous Report. The Secretary of State for War was prepared to lay the Report on the Table; it showed conclusively in what an insanitary condition the barracks were, especially the Royal Barracks. In the first place the Committee recommended an alteration of the subsoil drainage and removal of the inequalities of the ground. The

  853
  most important part of that undertaking was now in hand. The removal of a considerable portion of the present buildings was recommended; but with that recommendation they could not deal at present, because the troops could not be removed and placed under canvas at this time of the year. Last year he mentioned that there were legal difficulties in the way of going on quickly with the now Cavalry barracks. Those difficulties had now been removed. £15,000 from last year's Estimates would be expended upon the work. The land had been bought and about £3,000 had been spent in laying the foundations. £35,000 had been taken this year, and he was informed that the whole of that sum would be spent in the ensuing year. The Committee recommended the removal of the timber and renewing the floor. This work would be undertaken as soon as possible. The doctors also recommended that certain ventilation tubes should be used, but he understood that the military medical officers took exception to that recommendation. A re-arrangement of the hospital drainage was also recommended, as well as a disinfection of the sewage from the hospital, together with a suggestion that it should be diverted from the rest of the sewage system. This work had been ordered and was being carried out at the present time. A reconstruction of certain closets and an examination of their connection was recommended, and this work was also being carried out. The Committee recommended that a certain alteration should be made as regarded ash pits and receptacles of that kind. The attention of the local Military Authorities had been called to the matter, and the work was now in hand. An improved system of ventilating the main sewers was recommended, and the work was also in hand. The isolation of infectious disease was recommended. There had been some difficulty in providing a hospital for these cases, but that difficulty had been removed and was now arranged for. The medical officers, however, pointed out that cases of enteric fever were not always easy to diagnose as such until some time had elapsed, when it was too late to remove the patient. The Committee further recommended that care should be taken with regard to the supply of milk, which they seemed to think was suspicious. This question
  854
  had been referred to the local Military Authorities. As to the officers, he pointed out that one of the cases was that of an officer who had been in lodgings. Another case was that of an officer who, although in quarters, had been a great deal with his friends; and there appeared to be an idea prevalent that this officer might have contracted the disease in lodgings, as his friend did. The Government did not conceal the condition of the barracks, and they had every intention of carrying out the alterations recommended.
  EARL SPENCERsaid, as he had some peculiar means of knowing a few of the facts connected with this question when he was in Dublin, he should like to offer a few observations. While in Dublin he was in constant communication with some of the officers who were quartered in those barracks. While in Dublin on the last occasion nearly all those barracks had cases of illness of an enteric character in them. The Royal Barracks, however, was the place whence the officers came with whom he was in constant communication. During the time he was in Dublin one officer died in that barracks, and the other officers felt that they were in daily danger of catching typhoid fever owing to its condition. This was not a new question. He believed the question of illness in the Royal Barracks was a very old-standing grievance. He thought the evil had been going on for 25 years, and at different times there had been deaths not only among the officers but among the rank and file as well. He hoped the Government would seriously take this matter into consideration. It required to be dealt with immediately. He was glad to hear the noble Lord say that the immediate difficulty with regard to the site of the new barracks had been overcome. He should like to know whether the Government had consulted what were known as sanitary engineers, independently of the Military or Civil Authorities. He believed a question of this kind could only be dealt with by specialists who thoroughly understood the subject.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: All I can say, my Lords, is that if this barracks is not healthy I lived in it for seven years, two years in the House where one of the officers has, unfortunately,

  855
  died, and five years in the Royal Square. There has been a large increase in the number of cases of enteric fever among British troops all over the world, and therefore the spread of that disease among the troops stationed in the Royal Barracks in the City of Dublin is not by any means extraordinary. Throughout the whole of Ireland there has been more fever than usual, and no doubt the Royal Barracks have had their share in the increase of that disease. It must be borne in mind that when a large number of men are brought together there is great danger that diseases of this class will spread among them. The spread of the disease among the troops in Dublin may further be accounted for by the fact that the Royal Barracks are situated in the neighbourhood of a very low class of houses, which, however, are not specially connected with fever, although they are inhabited by a very low class of persons. The condition of the Liffey is certainly not all that could be desired. The difficulty which we have to face at the present moment is how we are to provide accommodation for the troops if we were to remove them from the Royal Barracks. We certainly could not place them under canvas at this time of the year; and the only other way to deal with the matter would be to hire large accommodation premises, which would be difficult to find, and, even if found, would be very expensive. The noble Lord the Under Secretary for War has assured us that the recommendations of the several Commissions which have sat to consider the question of the sanitary condition of our troops are being largely carried out at the present moment, and that any other suggestions that may be made in the same direction will receive very careful consideration. If it were decided to pull down any portion of the Royal Barracks in Dublin, considerable troop accommodation would be lost, and new barracks would have to be built somewhere else at great expense. All these points to which I have referred involve very serious questions, and naturally anyone occupying my position must take all the difficulties to which those questions give rise into consideration. I feel as strongly as the noble Lord who brought this subject under the consideration of the House how desirable it would be to ascertain absolutely what is the cause
  856
  of the Royal Barracks being so unhealthy, and whether there is any necessity for pulling even a part of them down. The Local Authorities, who ought to know more about the matter than we do, do not advocate pulling down the barracks, even although that course had been recommended by the Commissioners. Then we come to the other question, as to new barracks being built. Of course, when such barracks are built, it will enable us to reduce considerably the number of men now in the Royal Barracks; but it will take some two or three years to build these new barracks. I think that in the meanwhile something may be done to make the Royal Barracks more healthy by opening up the passages on both sides of the Royal Square and by pulling down a portion of the gable ends of the barracks. I can assure your Lordships that the Secretary of State for War is anxious to effect all necessary improvements in these buildings; and I believe that no endeavour will be spared to put these barracks into the best possible condition.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid he would remind the Under Secretary for War that it was not only the Royal Barracks that were unhealthy, and he was very glad to hear the assurances of the Illustrious Duke. He trusted that any financial difficulties would now be overcome. The time for consideration had gone by, and the time for action had arrived. He might add that while he was desirous of having the medical Report which had been referred to by the Under Secretary for War, he was also anxious for the Return for which he had asked.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYasked the noble Lord if he could give them any information as to the condition of the Richmond Barracks at Dublin. In cases of this kind the truest economy would be to place the troops in healthy barracks. The question of the sanitary condition of the barracks ought to be referred to experts, and he trusted that such persons would soon be able to point out the cause of the unhealthy condition of these buildings.
  LORD HARRISsaid he would obtain full information with regard to the state of the Richmond Barracks. He quite agreed with the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley) that the question of

  857
  the sanitary condition of these barracks was one for experts. He should like to point out that if Dublin Barracks were in the insanitary condition of which the noble Earl (Earl Spencer) had spoken, it was a pity that he did not interfere when he was in Office in Ireland.
  EARL SPENCER: A report on the subject was sent in.
  LORD HARRISsaid, that notwithstanding that, the Government of the day did not accede to the representations made to them. All he could say was that the present Government had now the information from experts which they desired last year upon the matter, and they had no intention of delaying the work.
  Motion, as amended, agreed to.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.