Lords Sitting of 10 February 1888

MINUTES.
— SELECT COMMITTEE — Office of the Clerk of the Parliaments, and Office of the Gentleman Usher of the. Black Rod, appointed and nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS — First Reading — Cathedral Churches * (2); Truro Cathedral Fabric and Services* (3); Law of Distress Amendment* (4); County Courts Consolidation * (5); Copyhold Acts Amendment * (6); Trust Companies * (7).

HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH—THE DEBATE ON THE ADDRESS.

  PERSONAL STATEMENT.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I have no desire to re-open the debate of last night; but I wish to clear up one or two matters of personal importance to myself. Nothing can be worse to a public man than to be accused of indulging in inaccurate statements without foundation. The noble Marquess yesterday said that my quotation of his remarks did not bear even the most fantastic resemblance—
  THE PRIME MINISTER, AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): What I said was—"did not bear any but the most fantastic resemblance."
  EARL GRANVILLE: Well, that is a serious charge of which I wish to clear myself; and while I do so I wish in the most complete manner to accept any declaration of the noble Marquess as to anything he has said, for I know that even the ablest reporters are not infallible. I am also bound to say that
  134
  he is more likely to be well-informed as to what Prince Bismarck has said, and also he may be better acquainted with what his Colleague the Chief Secretary for Ireland has said, than I am; but I can only say that I quoted yesterday from reports published, and I believe it has generally been the practice of those who are not in Office to do so when allusion is made to any speech delivered by Ministers. With regard to Prince Bismarck, the noble Marquess was good enough to say that he was able to defend himself. I am perfectly aware of that fact, except on one condition only, and that is that someone must attack him. Now, I never attacked Prince Bismarck, nor had I the slightest intention of doing so; my observations were limited to the noble Marquess himself. I will read what I said—
  "Our negotiators were so modest that they abdicated the care of the negotiations, and placed themselves unreservedly into the hands of the ablest and most powerful diplomatist of Europe. The choice was excellent; but, unfortunately, he announced himself the Plenipotentiary of Russia, and in that capacity advocated and obtained for her every object she desired."
  I am bound to say I have no authority but what appears in the message of The Times Correspondent from Berlin, the general accuracy of which is confirmed in the next day's message. The Correspondent, in his own words, states that the Chancellor said he almost tried to act as if he had been the fourth Plenipotentiary of Russia; and he then quotes—
  "Nay, I can almost say the third, for I could not look upon Prince Gortchakoff as an advocate of the Russian policy as it was then represented by its real champion, Count Schouvaloff. During the whole Congress there came to my knowledge no Russian wish which I did not advocate and even carry through, in consequence of the trust reposed in me by Lord Beaconsfield."
  I think that with this information respecting a remarkable speech, the report of which is uncontradicted, I was perfectly entitled to make the observations I made without being charged with having given a version which only bore a fantastic resemblance to what was said. I now come to the Chief Secretary for Ireland. What I said was—
  "The Chief Secretary with great candour had acknowledged that there had been an alliance between the Conservatives and the

  135
  Parnellites. He defended it on the ground that it was casual, and had only lasted a short time."
  I will now quote in full from the report in The Times a passage from the speech which Air. Balfour made at Manchester on December 15. He said—
  "The truth is that there is a vital and essential difference between the temporary and casual alliance, the temporal and imperfect co-operation, which occurred in 1885 between the Tory and the Irish Parties and the complete fusion and identification of interests which has now occurred between the Radicals and the same Irish Party."
  There may be room for argument one way or the other as to the meaning of that passage; but it certainly justifies my saying that Mr. Balfour at that time had acknowledged that there had been an alliance, although he qualified it by saying that it had been only temporary and casual. The remark I reluctantly made on another point was that a suggestion had come from the Prime Minister that a great majority of the Conservative Party would prefer not to hold conversation with Mr. Gladstone. I have looked back, and I find from The Times report that what the noble Marquess said was this—
  "My impression is that the great majority of Conservatives would rather not have a conversation with him (Mr. Gladstone) if they could avoid it."
  The report in The Daily Telegraph was the same. The report in The Daily Chronicle was—
  "My impression is that the majority of the Conservatives would rather not have a conversation with him."
  The report in The Standard was the same. I leave it to your Lordships to say whether it is correct to state that what I said had only a fantastic resemblance to the original; but I will entirely accept any repudiation by the noble Marquess. I feel, however, I have not been guilty of any offence to your Lordships' House in what I said last evening, and how the noble Marquess can say that the words I had founded on these reports bear only a fantastic resemblance to them passes my imagination.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am afraid I must adhere to my interpretation of the reference made by the noble Earl to the speech of Prince Bismarck. I have not got the original report of his speech here, as I was not aware the noble Earl intended to refer
  136
  to the matter; but I do not think the words he has quoted, even from the summary report, contain the meaning which his own language appears to attribute to them. He said that Prince Bismarck advocated and obtained for Russia every single object she desired. But what Prince Bismarck, as I understand, said was that anything brought to his knowledge during the negotiations at the Conference he obtained for Russia. That is quite a different thing.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I do not know whether the noble Marquess is stating what he imagines to be the case or is speaking from information he possesses.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am speaking from what the noble Earl himself said last night and to-night, and I maintain that what he has quoted to-night as Prince Bismarck's statement is not what he said last night, and the difference is material. The impression conveyed by the noble Earl in his speech last night was that Lord Beaconsfield had obtained no object of English policy, but that Prince Bismarck obtained everything Russia desired. That is not supported by any fair construction of the words actually used by Prince Bismarck. I may say the same with respect to other quotations. With respect to the quotation the noble Earl has made from my right hon. Relative the Chief Secretary for Ireland, as to the alliance which was said to have existed between the Conservatives and the Parnellite Party, the noble Earl left out the words "imperfect co-operation." If he will read the whole passage he will see it was something very different from "temporary and casual" alliance on which Mr. Balfour rested his defence. With regard to the quotations which the noble Earl did me the honour to make from my speeches, he does not seem in his explanations to have exhausted the number of quotations. For instance, I see the noble Earl stated that I had said in Lancashire "that nothing but a direct Vote of Censure would turn the Government out of Office." I beg to meet that statement with a most absolute contradiction. Those words were not the words I used, and I defy the noble Earl to find any report in which those words occur. The noble Earl said that I had stated that no legal provision could prevent the practice of Boycotting. I

  137
  never said such a thing, although I said there were certain forms of Boycotting, such as leaving church upon the entrance of certain persons, which law could not deal with. But what the noble Earl said is absolutely at variance with the fact, and it only showed that the noble Earl relied on his memory when he said that the previous opinion of the Prime Minister was that no legal provision could prevent the practice of "Boycotting." Again, the noble Earl said—
  "The Government of the noble Marquess declined to introduce any repressive measure, but they did not say it was for want of time."
  I said again and again it was for want of time; and I cannot conceive where he got the idea that I did not say so. It is true that other grounds were mentioned by myself and by others; but want of time was the ground which we alleged and dwelt on again and again; and if this were a fitting opportunity I could show that we dwelt upon it with very great reason. I now come to the question of the Boycotting of Mr. Gladstone. The noble Earl used in this House a very ambiguous phrase. He said I was guilty of a "suggestion" of pure and simple Boycotting. The word "suggestion" is a word with a very common meaning, and one that is very rare. It is generally used to indicate a mitigated sort of advice put into a man's head; and sometimes it is used, especially in Courts of Law, for indicating a fact. I presume, by the light of the noble Earl's present explanation, that it was in the latter sense he intended to use it. I understood the noble Earl to accuse me of advising the Boycotting of Mr. Gladstone. I can only say that if he did accuse me of any such thing, there is not the most fantastic resemblance to such a suggestion in the speech I actually made. What I said I abide by. I said Mr. Gladstone was guilty of a most unjustifiable act in stating to a correspondent that the Tories in private said that they expect that some measure of Home Rule must be passed. I said it was unjustifiable, first, because it was not true; and, secondly, because it suggested that Mr. Gladstone had means of knowing what the Tories said. To show that Mr. Gladstone had no means of knowing what the Tories said, I mentioned the undoubted fact that on such subjects they would be very
  138
  sparing in their conversation with him. I believe, as a matter of fact, that the Party, as a whole, would be sparing in conversation with him in the present excited state of feeling. They may be right or wrong. But their views of Mr. Gladstone's conduct are not those which are attached to the errors which an ordinary statesman may make. But let that pass; at all events, upon that subject they certainly would not converse with him. I maintain that that fact supports my contention that he was not justified in attributing to the Tories that they made statements in private inconsistent with their public utterances, and which he could not possibly have known if they had been made.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he must express regret at hearing the last portion of the noble Marquess's statement. He protested with his noble Friend behind him against the doctrine which had been laid down. Whatever might be his own opinions in regard to the Chief Secretary for Ireland's political action, he would not object to holding conversation with that right hon. Gentleman. However strong might be the feelings of public men in respect to public questions, it was on every account extremely desirable that they should not allow their political animosities to pass into the daily relations of life.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I spoke as to a fact I observed with respect to others: I did not utter a word to indicate any opinion of my own on the subject.

MALTA—THE NEW CONSTITUTION— PAPERS AND CORRESPONDENCE.

  QUESTION.
  EARL DE LA WARRasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether recent Papers and Correspondence relative to the now Constitution of Malta could be laid on the Table of the House?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ONSLOW)said, that a Constitution had been recently granted to Malta, and a Royal Commission had been sent out to inquire into the question as to whether the Island should be divided into districts, and, if so, into what districts. A telegram had been received that the Report on the subject had left Malta and

  139
  would reach them very shortly, and when printed the Report would be laid on the Table as soon as possible. He therefore hoped that the noble Earl would postpone any remarks that he had to make on that subject until the Report had been presented.

ARMY—RESERVE FORCES—TRANSPORT AND FIELD ARTILLERY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSS, in rising to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, Whether any steps were being taken to provide transport and field artillery for the Reserve Forces, said, that since he had been a Member of that House he had felt it to be his duty on more than one occasion to call attention to our state of military unpreparedness for war, more especially in connection with the equipment, transport, and artillery for our Reserve Forces. He hoped that the organization of the Army would be well considered by the Government, whatever Party was in Office; but seven years had passed before anything was done to satisfy the national pride. One could not, he thought, help contrasting our state of unpreparedness at home with the condition of matters in that respect on the Continent. Germany could bring into the field at once 2,000,000 of men, fully armed and equipped with all the requisites of war, and within 21 days afterwards they could call out a further reserve of 900,000 men, equally organized, and provided with all the necessaries for war. He believed that France and Russia were also similarly prepared. As regarded their Reserve Forces, it was only last year that any movement was made in their better organization, and then a Vote was taken for only 80 guns, which was exactly one-fifth of the number that the Intelligence Department had stated publicly, with the authority of the Secretary of State, to be the number necessary for the proper arming of our Reserve Forces. Nothing at all had been done with reference to transport. It was rumoured that the Government were directing their attention to the question of transport, and he hoped that they would state what they proposed to do in that matter. In Scotland they were much excited on the subject of national defence, because it had come out that under a plan which
  140
  had been excogitated in the Intelligence Department in regard to mobilization all the Regular troops were to be taken from Scotland, and that Scotland would have entirely to depend upon the Reserve Forces. He held in his hand a Return containing the replies to a printed form relating to his county (Haddingtonshire), asking the farmers what number of horses they had which would be available for war, and also for drill purposes in time of peace, and likewise the number of carts that would be available for transport. Having obtained that information, he hoped that the Government would do the same thing in the case of all the other counties of Scotland and England. The tenantry of his county were fully alive to the patriotic efforts which ought to be made to meet the wants of the State in those matters. They had in that Return over 300 horses, 80 carts, and 70 drivers. If farmers were expected to come forward readily and offer their horses for that purpose, they ought to be perfectly assured that they would be fully compensated for accidents or injuries sustained in that service by the horses, which were valuable, averaging somewhere about £50 each. Volunteer field artillery would be most useful in time of war. They wanted very little money, but a great deal of organization, to put those men practically and efficiently into the field. They had allowed 27 years to elapse without establishing such an organization—an operation which the existing state of Europe required that they should carry out. He trusted, in conclusion, that Her Majesty's Government would boldly proceed to make whatever preparations were necessary to render the country secure.
  LORD TRUROsaid, he was sure their Lordships would join him in commending the efforts of the noble Earl, who had raised the question in promoting the Volunteer movement; he would, however, remind their Lordships that the Artillery Volunteer Force was not entirely contemporaneous with the rifle force. The Artillery Force sprang into existence a year or more after the Volunteer movement had been consolidated; and the War Office Authorities had naturally had great difficulty in deciding what kind of armament should be provided for the Volunteer Force. He could mention several cases in which

  141
  regiments bad been supplied with guns of varying calibre; and, no doubt, this diversity of armament was to a great extent advantageous, because it caused the regiments to learn the serving of all those different guns. As to the lighter 20-pounder field guns which were to be granted, he had been informed that those guns did not exceed 80 in number, and that the experts had come to the conclusion that the 20-pounder gun was not so valuable as the 12 or 15-pounder gun. He wished to know whether it was true that the authorities had abandoned all idea of increasing the number of 20-pounder guns; and whether, supposing the Volunteer Force were to take the field to-morrow, they would have the service guns required? It would be a lamentable condition of affairs if the Volunteer Force should at the last moment only be provided with the service guns with which they had to meet the enemy.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS)said, he had entered into the question of arming the Volunteer Artillery at some length last year, and had explained the ground on which the assistance would be given to our Artillery Volunteers to horse those guns. He might say that during the Recess the corps had been selected to which were to be issued those field batteries of position. The guns were ready and waiting for issue, and orders had been sent out to the Volunteer Corps in question to demand those guns and equipments. The delay, he thought, had principally arisen from the difficulty of finding the requisite store accommodation, which was insisted upon by the War Office. He thought the noble Lord was labouring under a misconception as to the weight of the gun it was proposed to issue to the Volunteer Force. He believe it was intended that 40-pounders should be issued up to the number that they had, and that then 20-pounders would be brought into use. With reference to the lighter or 12-pounder field guns now being introduced into the Regular Army, he thought it obviously necessary that they should have good experience of that gun in the Regular Army before it was used in the Volunteer Artillery. It was not at all comparable with the gun to be issued to the Volunteer Artillery at present. On the subject of regimental transport,
  142
  he thought the noble Earl took him at his word last year when he stated that he was not aware of any movement in the Volunteer Forces in the direction of forming a field transport service. He had in his mind at the time the fact that there was one experiment going on, and that he did not see any attempt being made in any other part of the country of the same character. They owed a debt of gratitude to the noble Earl for the interest he had taken in the Volunteer movement, and for the spirit of patriotism which he had aroused in the breasts of all Englishmen in support of that movement. But the noble Earl was evidently determined not to rest upon his oars, and was again pushing forward in the direction of field transport and Volunteer Artillery. The attempt made by Colonel Sir William Humphery, commanding the 1st Volunteer Battalion Hampshire Regiment, in 1885 to provide transport for his battalion of 1,100 strong was repeated in 1886, and with such success that the Secretary of State for War had decided to extend the experiment, not indiscriminately, but with due regard to the provisions of the mobilization scheme. A War Office letter was being sent to the general officers commanding districts directing them to select battalions not allotted to the garrisons of fortresses or commercial ports. Ten battalions were to be selected, and a grant of £45 to each, in lieu of forage, capitation, and camp allowance, had been sanctioned by the Treasury. This amount was based on the experience gained by Sir William Humphery's experiment. Beyond the grant named the organization was voluntary, the supply of carts, carters, and horses being lent by neighbouring owners. The establishment, according to the strength of the selected battalion, had been taken from a modification of The Manual for Regimental Transport (Infantry), 1887. There was good reason to anticipate the success of this movement if they might be guided by the impression made on the general officer commanding that district, who personally inspected the transport of the Hampshire Regiment. He reported that—
  "During the march of 14 miles the transport followed close in rear of the battalion in the most orderly and military manner, and there was no straggling or falling out. During the mid-day halt the transport was regularly

  143
  parked and the horses were watered and fed. On arrival at the camping ground the battalion took up its position and the transport filed to the allotted ground for the camp, and formed up most regularly. The camp was pitched very quickly, dinners were cooked, and in an hour the camp was completely, formed in all respects, the whole of the equipment and supplies for over 800 men having been moved by the Volunteer regimental transport from the camp near Basingstoke, where the battalion bad been under canvas for six days. Had it been necessary the battalion could have inarched right away to any part of the country, convoying all its equipment and stores with it, without requiring outside assistance of any sort, beyond a route being laid down and authority to obtain rations and forage en route."
  The noble Earl had made a reference to the movement taking place in Haddingtonshire. In these favourable circumstances, the Government had thought it wise to be prepared for a future extension of this organization, and would invite Volunteer Corps, according to a list prepared by the Mobilization Committee, to keep a register of suitable transport obtainable under like conditions in the neighbourhood. Her Majesty's Government had been considering the point, which had been suggested last year by the Tactical Society, and during that year His Royal Highness the Commander-in-Chief had sanctioned the issue of guns of position to the Volunteers, and had expressed his satisfaction with the march-past of one of the Worcester Volunteer Artillery regiments which he had personally inspected during that year. In these circumstances, he trusted that the noble Earl would be satisfied that the Government were not neglecting to take the necessary steps to strengthen the Force in which he took so much interest.
  THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, that the noble Lord had not answered one very important point to which he had referred. It had been given in evidence before the Commission which had sat to consider the subject of our national defences that if an enemy could succeed in avoiding our Fleet in the Channel, and in landing a force of 150,000 or 200,000 upon our coasts, there would be nothing to prevent their marching upon and taking London. It was absolutely necessary, therefore, that steps should be taken for the defence of the country; and, therefore, he wished to know whether Her Majesty's Government, having already done much good work, were prepared to go on in the
  144
  same line, and to supply the Volunteer Artillery with the proportion of guns which Lord Wolseley and the Intelligence Department had stated were absolutely necessary for the safety of the country? His own impression was that the time had come when the Government of the day should have the courage of their opinions, and should imitate the example set by Lord Palmerston by appealing to the people, and asking for a loan to enable them to provide the country with sufficient ships, to supply our forces with the necessary armaments, and to defend our coaling stations and our home ports. Portsmouth itself was not at this moment properly armed.
  LORD HARRISsaid, that undoubtedly Her Majesty's Government were prepared to extend the armaments of the Volunteer Artillery if the present experiment proved successful; but he must decline to pledge the Government to further expenditure in this direction until the experiment had proved successful.

  OFFICE OF THE CLERK OF THE PARLIAMENTS AND OFFICE OF THE GENTLEMAN USHER OF THE BLACK ROD.
  Select Committee appointed: The Lords following, with the Lord Chancellor, the Lord President, the Lord Privy Seal, and the Chairman of Committees, were named of the Committee:

  D. Richmond.

  E, Beauchamp.

  D. Saint Albans.

  E. Camperdown.

  D. Bedford.

  E. Granville.

  M. Salisbury.

  E. Kimberley.

  M. Bath.

  E. Sydney.

  E. Mount Edgcumbe. (Ld. Steward.)

  E. de Montalt.

  V. Hardinge.

  V. Eversley.

  E. Lathom. (Ld. Chamberlain.)

  V. Oxenbridge.

  L. Colchester.

  E. Devon.

  L. Ker. (M. Lothian.)

  E. Carnarvon.

  L. Kintore.

  E. Belmore.

  L. Aveland. (E. Kintore.)

  E. Harrowby.

  E. Bradford.

  L. Colville of Culross.

  The Committee to meet on Thursday next at half past Three o'clock:
  Leave given to the Committee to report from time to time.

  CATHEDRAL CHURCHES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to provide for making statutes respecting deans and chapters and cathedral churches in England, and for other purposes relating thereto—Was presented by the Lord Bishop of Carlisle; read 1a. (No. 2.)
  TRURO CATHEDRAL FABRIC AND SERVICES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to provide a fund for the repair and services of the cathedral church of Truro— Was presented by the Lord Steward; read 1a.(No. 3.)
  LAW OF DISTRESS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the law of distress for rent —Was presented by The Lord Herschell; read 1a. (No. 4.)
  COUNTY COURTS CONSOLIDATION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to consolidate the County Courts Acts —Was presented by The Lord Chancellor; read 1a. (No. 5.)
  COPYHOLD ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Copyhold Acts—Was presented by The Lord Hobhouse; read 1a. (No. 6.)

  TRUST COMPANIES BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to enable incorporated companies to act as executors, administrators, and trustees; and in other fiduciary capacities—Was presented by The Lord Hobhouse; read 1a, (No. 7.)
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.