Lords Sitting of 20 December 1888

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Employers' Liability Act, 1880 (Continuance) * (307); Probate Duties (Scotland and Ireland)* (308); Salmon Fisheries (Scotland) * (309); Local Government (England and Wales) Act, 1888, Repeal, negatived.
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Third Reading—Crofters' Holdings (Scotland) Act (1886) Amendment (No. 4) (299); Sand Grouse Protecion * (305), and passed.
Committee—Report—Third Reading—Preferential Payment of Wages (No. 2) (301), and passed.
Withdrawn—County Court Appeals (Ireland) * (297).

ARMY—THE HON. ARTILLERY COMPANY.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF DUNRAVENsaid, that he would ask the Under Secretary of State for War a Question of which he had given him private Notice, with respect to the disarmament of the Hon. Artillery Company. Their Lordships had seen with regret that this disarmament had taken place, but beyond that very little was known. It was a subject that interested the country to some considerable extent, and any information would be desirable. Could the noble Lord inform their Lordships as to the causes which had led to the disarmament; as to the present condition of the corps; as to whether the corps were alive, dead, or in a condition of suspended animation; and as to whether any steps were likely to be taken in the matter?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOE WAR (Lord HARRIS): In reply to my noble Friend, I have to state that the cause which led to the withdrawal of the guns, arms, and equipment of the Hon. Artillery Company was an official Report to the Se-

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  cretory of State from the officer commanding the corps that it was in a most unsatisfactory state as regards discipline. Owing to this state of indiscipline, and to the resiguation of the Captain General, the commanding officer, and the adjutant, this corps cannot be recognized as a properly constituted military body, and the usual course has been adopted in withdrawing the arms and equipment, which are the property of the State. It is not the case that the Warrant has been withdrawn, and the Secretary of State hopes that the necessity for such a course will never arise in the case of a corps so ancient as the Hon. Artillery Company.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXV. considered (according to Order), and dispensed with for the remainder of the Session.
PREFERENTIAL PAYMENT OF WAGES (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 301.)
(The Earl of Dunraven.)
PREFERENTIAL PAYMENT OF WAGES (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 301.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Amendments made: Then (Standing Order No. XXXV. having been dispensed with) the said Amendments reported.
  LORD FITZGERALDsaid, he had to move an Amendment of the fourth paragraph of the 1st clause. This clause enumerated debts which were to be paid in priority to all other debts, and the fourth paragraph said that, in the event of the landlord's having distrained, "or having received any payment or undertaking in consideration of not so distraining" the preferential debts to which priority was given should be a first charge on the goods distrained on, or on the money so paid or payable. The Amendment was that the words quoted should be omitted so as to exempt the payment made or undertaking given to the landlord from any claim in respect of the debts to which priority is given.
  Amendment moved,
  In Clause 1, sub-section 4, line 18, to leave out ("or having received any payment or undertaking in consideration of not so distraining.")—(The Lord FitzGerald.)
  THE EARL OF DUNRAVENsaid, he could not accept the Amendment. As
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  far as it went it would defeat the object of the Bill.
  EARL FORTESCUEsupported the Amendment, describing this paragraph of the clause as one of those gushing proposals which would defeat their object and operate injuriously, as the Usury Laws did. Indeed, the paragraph with those words in it was a provision for promoting evictions by depriving a landlord of the opportunity of showing consideration for a tenant, and punishing him if he did so.
  On Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 15; Not-Contents 15.
  The numbers being equal, it was (according to ancient rule) resolved in the negative.
  Bill read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

COUNTY COURTS APPEALS (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 297.)
(The Lord FitzGerald.)
COUNTY COURTS APPEALS (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 297.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD FITZGERALD, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, the principle of the Bill appeared to be correct, but in details considerable Amendments were required, and he did not intend to proceed with it to any further stage this Session. A few years ago an equity jurisdiction was given to the County Courts in Ireland; but the appeal from the County Courts under that jurisdiction was given, not to the Court of Assize, as was the case in Common Law appeals, but to the Chancery Division. The appeals to the Chancery Division were found to be expensive, and productive of delay and inconvenience; and the object of this Bill was to transfer the appeals from the Chancery Division to the Court of Assize, so as to have but one Court of Appeal. He believed that the principle of the Bill was a sound one.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord FitzGerald.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY): said, that the Bill seemed to him to raise a very important principle, and he could not assent to its being

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  affirmed without considering the matter fully. As the noble and learned Lord did not propose to proceed further with the Bill this Session, no harm would be done by reading it a second time, on the understanding that it did not bind them to affirm the principle of the Bill.
  Objection being raised,
  Motion and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

CROFTERS HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) ACT (1886) AMENDMENT (No. 4) BILL.
(The Marquess of Lothian.)
CROFTERS HOLDINGS (SCOTLAND) ACT (1886) AMENDMENT (No. 4) BILL.

  (No. 299.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN), in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, that the Crofter Commission was appointed under the Act of 1886 to decide upon fair rents and to deal with arrears. It was hoped, when the Act was passed, that a great many cases would be decided out of Court between landlords and crofters. The expectation, however, had not been realized, and in no case had an arrangement been come to out of Court. Throughout the crofter counties specified under the Act the number of applications made to the Commissioners, and still unheard, was very large indeed, and this state of affairs had given rise to great dissatisfaction in all quarters. The matter had been very strongly brought under his notice by proprietors and crofters alike, and also on behalf of the Judicial Authorities in various places, and he had received urgent communications asking that the Commissioners should hurry, as far as possible, with their work. After consulting with the Commissioners, he had, as far as he could, met the views of those who had desired to have their applications heard; but it was impossible that applications could be heard in very many instances, because the Crofter Commissioners could not be in more places than one. The dissatisfaction was so great that it was clear that the work of the Commission must be expedited, and that could not be done except by Act of Parliament. The Act of 1886 appointed three Crofter Commissioners, and it was enacted that two should form a quorum. Under these circumstances, it was impossible for the
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  Commissioners to divide their labours, and only one Court could be held at a time. The object of the Bill which he now asked their Lordships to read a second time was to enable the three Commissioners to sit in separate Courts with the assistance of Assessors. By this means three Courts would be held instead of one, and the work would be greatly expedited. So many cases had already been heard that it was absolutely essential in the future that the decisions of the Commissioners as to rent and arrears should be carried out upon the same principle. All must be agreed that the principle upon which those decisions had been founded in the past must be acted upon in the future, and they might rest satisfied that the Commissioners were fully acquainted with that principle. Under the arrangement proposed in the Bill there was no occasion to alter the principle upon which decisions had hitherto been made. He should like to bear testimony to the enormous amount of labour which the Commissioners had given to the work which they had had to perform; but they could not possibly, without assistance, get through the business which was still before them. He might add that the request for additional assistance had not come from one section only, but from all parties who were interested in the matter. Under the circumstances, he had no hesitation in asking their Lordships to read the Bill a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
  Motion agreed to; Committee negatived; Then (Standing Order No. XXXV. having been dispensed with) Bill read 3a, and passed.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ENGLAND AND WALES) ACT, 1888, REPEAL BILL.
(The Lord Denman.)
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ENGLAND AND WALES) ACT, 1888, REPEAL BILL.

  (No. 282.) FIRST READING.
  Order of the Day for the First Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 1a."—(The Lord Denman.)
  Objected to; and,
  On Question, resolved in the negative.
  LORD DENMAN: What!
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY): The Not-Contents have it.
  LORD DENMAN: I demur, my Lords, to the justice of this proceeding.
  LORD HALSBURY: Order, order! The House has already decided, and the noble Lord is not in Order.
  LORD DENMAN: I did not hear the Question put, and I hope my noble and learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor) will not persist in taking advantage of my deafness. I have been 34 years a Member of this House, and it seems that I am entitled to speak in every month except October, but I maintain that I am entitled to be heard now. I maintain there is a precedent for the course which I am adopting. When this County Council Electors Bill was presented an idea got into the head of the Prime Minister that no Bill could be presented and repealed in the same year. In 1753 the Duke of Newcastle presented a Bill for the naturalization of the Jews. It was supported by Lord Chatham, and repealed the very same year. There have been very great defects found in the whole framing of these Bills relating to local government. They have been carried in a most irregular manner, through both Houses of Parliament, and I earnestly hope that a different system will prevail, or the liberties of England are gone.

THE SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE SWEATING SYSTEM.

  RESOLUTION.
  THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN, in rising to move—
  "That the Select Committee on the Sweating System have power to employ a gentleman for the purpose of visiting the various districts in the United Kingdom where it had been alleged that the sweating system existed, and examining into the evidence proposed to be submitted to the Select Committee,"
  said, it depended altogether on their Lordships whether or not they re-appointed the Select Committee, which they appointed at the commencement of the Session, on the sweating system. He earnestly hoped they would do so; in fact, he assumed that they would. Their Lordships could readily understand that in an inquiry of this kind there was some considerable difficulty as to the nature and character of the evidence
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  to be received. It was impossible for the Committee to undertake that matter for themselves when the evidence which should come before them was in the Provinces. It was quite impossible, without the aid of a Committee clerk, to obtain any information as to the nature of the evidence to be brought before the Committee from long distances. Their Lordships' Committee, therefore, considered that to enable them to carry on their work, if they were re-appointed next Session, it was essential that they should have some assistance in that matter. The Home Office had placed at the disposition of the Committee a gentleman who was well capable of doing the work, and there was, he believed, no difficulty in the matter, except the technical one that the Committee itself had no power to appoint this gentleman. Therefore it was that he came to their Lordships with this Resolution.
  Moved, "That the Select Committee on the Sweating System have power to employ a gentleman for the purpose of visiting the various districts in the United Kingdom where it has been alleged that the sweating system exists, and examining into the evidence proposed to be submitted to the Select Committee."—(The Karl of Dunraven.)
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Lord KNUTSFORD): said, that if any technical difficulty existed in that matter, Her Majesty's Government were quite willing and desirous that it should be removed—that was to say, if it was necessary for the Committee to have any authority from the House to employ a gentleman for the purpose mentioned. Her Majesty's Government were as anxious as the noble Earl was that there should be a thorough inquiry into the question referred to the Select Committee; but he was informed that it would be sufficient if the Committee applied to the Treasury for leave to appoint the gentleman alluded to for the purpose indicated in the Motion. If, however, the case was otherwise, the Government, as far as they were concerned, would be happy to support the noble Earl.
  On Question, agreed to.

  SALMON FISHERIES (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to the salmon fisheries of Scotland, and to establish a close time for trout and char in

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  Scotland—Was presented by The Lord Ker (M. of Lothian); read 1a (No. 309.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.