Lords Sitting of 18 December 1888

Preamble
MINUTES.]—PUBLIC BILLS—First, Reading—Sand Grouse Protection* [305].
Second Reading—Preferential Payment of Members (No. 2) * (301); Local Government (England and Wales) Electors Act, 1888, Repeal (282), negatived.
Third Reading—Public Health Acts Amendment (Buildings in Streets)* (283), and passed.

Preamble
  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  Standing Order No. XXXV. to be considered on Thursday next in order to its being dispensed with for the remainder of the Session.—(The Marquess of Salisbury).
  HINDOO LAW OF MARRIAGE—INDIAN PROCEDURE CODE—REMOVAL OF A NATIVE CHRISTIAN GIRL.

    QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
    LORD FITZGERALDsaid, a good deal of attention had recently been drawn to a case at Patna in which a magistrate ordered a girl, alleged to be under the age of 14 years, to be handed over to a man for alleged immoral purposes, to whom the mother was alleged to have sold her. Sir John Gorst, replying to a Question on the subject in the House of Commons a few days ago, stated that the magistrate acted under Section 551 of the Indian Procedure Code, and added that the Secretary of State desired him to remind the House
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    that Indian magistrates were bound to administer the law as it was, and that Her Majesty's Government was under the most solemn obligations to respect the religious and social customs of the Hindoos, and all other classes of Her Majesty's subjects in India. He entirely agreed with that statement, which was in accordance with the recommendation of the English Commissioners for the codification of the law of India, who, in the course of their Report, said—
    "And such code, prepared, as it ought to be, with a constant regard to the conditions and institutions of India, and the character, religions, and usages of the population, would, we are convinced, he of great benefit to that country."
    The section under which the magistrate acted, it should be borne in mind, only applied to female children who were under the age of 14 years, detained for an unlawful purpose—and an immoral purpose would, of course, be an unlawful purpose. It was, therefore, very important to clear up distinctly whether the child was under 14 years or not. The Under Secretary, in his Answer to the House of Commons, did not mention a strange fact in this case—namely, that this child had already been twice married. The case threw some light on the system of child marriages in India, which, in a recent trial of a Brahmin convicted of murdering his child wife, Mr. Justice Norris pronounced to be the root of most of the miseries in Hindoo social life, and which, he added, was now severely condemned by a large section of the Hindoo community. He did not desire to discuss or express any opinion on this case at Patna, but it was one which had aroused immense interest in the district and which required careful consideration, touching closely as it did the social customs of the people. At present the House was not in full possession of the facts, and it being the first province of this House to supervise the administration of justice in all the dominions of the Crown, he would ask the Secretary of State for India whether he would procure further information as to this important case?
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS)deprecated any discussion of this matter at the present moment, as the House was not in possession of full information. The case was recently brought to his notice, and,

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    after communication with the Government of India, the following information was received, which was recently, at his desire, given to the House of Commons:—
    "Quinn, magistrate of Patna district, reports that girl alleged to be under 14 years of age left reputed husband's house in October last. Application made to magistrate of district under section 551, Criminal Procedure Act 10 of 1882, to restore girl to her mother. Orders issued under section to show cause why girl should not be restored. Inquiry made about it shows that girl's marriage has been proved and Court's orders issued for the restoration of the girl to her husband and mother. Bengal High Court, on application, pending inquiry, has refused to interfere with district magistate's proceedings. Affair apparently dispute between the missionaries and natural guardians for possession of native child. The Government of Bengal has called for record of district magistrate's proceedings."
    He had no occasion to doubt the accuracy of the facts in that statement, and he gathered from it that the matter was still pending in the High Court of Bengal. He had, by telegram, again communicated with the Viceroy, and had requested his Excellency to furnish him, by mail, with the fullest report of the whole proceedings. When this report arrived he would communicate its contents to their Lordships' House; but until then he did not think that anything could be done in the matter.

  PREFERENTIAL PAYMENT OF WAGES (No. 2) BILL—(No. 301).
  (The Earl of Dunraven.)
  PREFERENTIAL PAYMENT OF WAGES (No. 2) BILL—(No. 301).

    SECOND READING.
    Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
    THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the Bill had passed the House of Commons without objection, and had been amended by the Attorney General. It must, therefore, in its present state, meet with the approval of Her Majesty's Government. The object of the Bill was to give to wages in this country the same conditions of justice as they received in other countries in respect to their priority in cases of bankruptcy, liquidation, or the winding up of companies. The Bill proposed, in cases where the landlord distrained for recovery of rent, to give a priority to Local Authorities and to wages up to a certain extent. But the
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    Bill provided, in the event of the distress not being sufficient to meet all the requirements of the case, that the landlord should have the right, which he did not now possess, of priority over the general assets and total estate of the company in liquidation, or of the bankrupt. Therefore the Bill took away no practical right from the landlord, but would do away with much hardship to the wage-earning classes of the country. If their lordships would read the Bill a second time, he should move that the Bill be committed on Thursday next, and move the suspension of the Standing Orders in order to carry it through on the same day.
    Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Dunraven.)
    THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (The Earl of ONSLOW)said, he was not sure that the Bill would have its intended effect if it did not apply to the estates of debtors dying insolvent. Therefore he should move an Amendment to the Bill in the next stage, though he should be unwilling in any way to imperil its passing.
    THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN)said, that he believed the Bill was not intended to apply to Ireland, where the law of bankruptcy was different from that of England; but that, as it stood at present, it would so apply. He should, therefore, move an Amendment to exclude Ireland from its operation.
    Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ENGLAND AND WALES) ELECTORS ACT, 1888 REPEAL BILL.—(No. 282.)
  (The Lord Denman.)
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ENGLAND AND WALES) ELECTORS ACT, 1888 REPEAL BILL.—(No. 282.)

    SECOND READING.
    Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
    LORD DENMAN, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the Local Government Act of this Session was passed in a great hurry; was a dangerous measure; that the counties did not desire it; nor was there any desire to supersede the magistrates in the management of county business. It was a very unsatisfactory Act as regarded woman. In short, the Act

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    should not have been passed until after a General Election, when it could have been seen whether it received the approbation of the country. He begged to move the second reading of this Bill.
    Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Denman.)
    On Question, resolved in the negative.

  PUBLIC BUSINESS—REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS.

    QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
    LORD NORTONsaid, he rose to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether the Bills standing for Second Reading in this House on the subject of Reformatory and Industrial Schools are intended to have early attention next Session, considering that five years have now elapsed since the Report of the Royal Commission on which they are founded? The Royal Commission had reported that these schools had done infinite service to the country by ridding it of nurseries of juvenile crime. Yet in the course of many years abuses had crept in which impaired the efficiency of the schools and had almost threatened their existence. In many cases parents were divested of the proper care of their children, and this led to a great waste of public money for the maintenance of the schools, and involved a charge on the Treasury of £500,000 yearly in addition to the voluntary contributions that were also absorbed. There were three Bills that stood on the Paper of the House for a second reading, counting two introduced by the Government as one measure, relating to reformatories and industrial schools respectively. These were both consolidating and amending Bills; and they introduced a number of improvements. They would greatly reduce the number of boys sent to reformatories by authorizing the use of corporal punishment for a greater number of juvenile offences. They also proposed to fine parents who were culpable for their children's offences, to make them pay compensation for damage done by their children, and to make them give security for the better conduct of their children. These were all useful provisions, and no time ought to be lost in passing them. The second measure was his own, and it proposed to separate the penal treatment of children from their
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    schooling. The third Bill had come from the Commons, where it had passed sub silentio. It proposed to authorize magistrates either to commit criminal children to prison or to sentence them direct to school. This was a mischievous proposition, as under it there would be two sets of children, equally criminal, so differently treated according to the fancy of magistrates as to render discipline difficult. This Bill kept up the phraseology of sentences to detention in school, which would be analogous to binding for a term of apprenticeship after prison treatment had been completed. He hoped all these Bills would be brought forward and discussed together early next Session, before the Report of the Commission was entirely forgotten, and that they would be introduced first in this House, which had more time to consider them than the other House.
    EARL BROWNLOWsaid, it was the intention of the Government to re-introduce these Bills early next Session, and he trusted they might be introduced in this House and discussed by their Lordships, who had given great attention to the subject, in time to be sent early to the other House, in the hope that they might receive attention there also.

  IRISH INDUSTRIES—THE ROYAL COMMISSION.

    QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
    THE EARL OF HOWTHasked Her Majesty's Government if they contemplate carrying out any of the recommendations advocated by the Royal Commission on Irish Industries? He put this Question, not on his own spontaneous motion, but in the interests of a large class of society in Ireland. There was a rumour that the Estimates would be taken early next year; and he greatly feared, from symptoms he had seen, that the Government were likely to avoid dealing with the question of Irish industries unless some pressure was put upon them. In undertaking to deal with the Irish industries, and to expend large sums of money upon them, the Government had, no doubt, the laudable intention of developing those industries; but they had also another object in view, and that was to gain a good name for themselves. They wanted to appear as a parental Government in Ireland, and to obtain the good-will and

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    good wishes of the large mass of society there, and had done so. The position of the Government was clearly that of an individual who had taken apartments in an hotel, and who lived sumptuously and entertained his friends, and then, wanted to run away without paying the bill. That was precisely the position in which the Government practically stood with regard to Ireland at the present moment if they did not soon carry out their engagements. They appointed a Royal Commission to inquire into the subject of the Irish industries, which the previous Government on two occasions had refused to do; but they did this apparently to gain time to get out of their difficulties. Everything connected with the Irish fisheries and railways and other industries had been so thoroughly threshed out that the Royal Commission had only to fall back upon the beaten track. The Government had introduced a Drainage Bill into the House of Commons this Session for the drainage of the Bann, the Shannon, and another river, and on account of the fierce opposition of the Irish Members that Bill was withdrawn. There was also a rumour that the Government had abandoned the idea of dealing with, the Irish fisheries on account of their unfortunate position, as detailed in the Report of the Royal Commission. He trusted, and sincerely hoped, however, that the question of the Irish fisheries would not be consigned to obscurity. The Light Railway Bill in 1883 miscarried, and its operations were disregarded; but that miscarriage had left a large surplus available, which had been subscribed, or brought about, rather by the action of the late Government. He thought from what the present Government had promised they would have had their fisheries and their harbour and their railways satisfactorily improved. Great expectations had been held out by them in that respect; but he regretted that none of these expectations had been realized. Those promises had been given mainly to gain popularity; and he certainly thought that the Government ought not to retire from the scene without carrying out some of those promises. There were various works which they might carry out, and which he was sure would not meet with the opposition of the Irish Members. The first work
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    which he would suggest should be carried out was the junction of the railways in the County Cork. That was a work of enormous value, as it would afford facilities for the whole trade of the South-West of Ireland, and especially the fishing trade, in avoiding the different loadings and unloadings that were now necessary. The next work he would suggest was the construction of additional railway lines in certain districts, such as a railway connecting the coast of Kerry, and more especially the fishing ground there, with the more important towns of Ireland, and a railway through Connemara to Galway. With regard to industrial schools, one of which had been so successfully established at Baltimore by the private generosity of Lady Burdett-Coutts, he thought the best position for them would be in Galway Bay or Donegal Bay. The pupils turned out from those schools, which would in this manner largely meet the wants of the congested districts, would be perfectly fit for service in any Mercantile Marine, or in the Navy; and if they chose to stay at home they would decidedly be an improvement to their neighbourhood, and benefactors to it. He most earnestly called the attention of the Government to these works; and, in conclusion, he wished to say in reference to the statement of Mr. Gladstone, in his speech on Saturday, with regard to the Liberal Unionists, that as an humble Liberal Unionist they were bound to tender their allegiance to the Conservative Party, and in doing so to co-operate with the great and important Body which was led by the Marquess of Hartington on important questions.
    THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN)said, that having on several occasions during the present Session endeavoured to the best of his ability to answer Questions put to him by the noble Earl on that subject, he was afraid that he had not been able to satisfy him heretofore; and as his answer must now be of the same tenour as his previous ones, he feared that he would fail again to come up to the full measure of the noble Earl's wishes. He must protest against the account which the noble Earl had given of the conduct of the Government with reference to the Report of the Royal Commissioners on Irish Industries. Still more must he disclaim entirely the motives which the noble Earl

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    had imputed to the conduct of the Government in regard to that important subject. The noble Earl had likened them to a lodger who stayed for a time and lived on the fat of the land in a house and left without paying his bill. Now he could not see the application of that figure of speech; and he must say he thought that the other remarks made by the noble Earl with respect to the conduct of the Government were not only uncalled for but were somewhat unjust. The noble Earl had spoken of their having withdrawn the measures that were brought forward with reference to drainage in Ireland because they met with opposition from the Irish Members "in another place." That was not at all an accurate version of the case. The fact, as their Lordships were aware, and as the noble Earl himself must be aware, was that from the pressure of Business in the other House of Parliament, owing to circumstances over which the Government had no control, it had been necessary to drop not only those Bills, but also many other Bills of importance to various parts of the Empire. He had informed the noble Earl on a previous occasion that inasmuch as the Commissioners in their Report had inverted the order of the subjects referred to them, and had felt it their duty to report first upon the subject of arterial drainage, and secondly upon the questions of fisheries and railways, his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland had deemed it his duty to act on the Report of the Commissioners in the same order as that in which they were dealt with in that Report. With that object in view, the Government introduced Bills dealing with the arterial drainage of the three rivers which had been mentioned. Those Bills were introduced in the other House by his right hon. Friend. Much delay took place before the Government were enabled to introduce them at all. When they were brought in they met—whether rightly or wrongly—with considerable opposition from Members connected with Ireland; and, as he had said before, the pressure of Business had been such that it was impossible for them to proceed with them during the present Session. The noble Earl asked whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to deal with the
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    recommendations of the Royal Commission on Irish Industries in the ensuing Session. It was the intention of his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland to re-introduce the Bills dealing with arterial drainage at an early period in the ensuing Session, with every hope that they would be able to pass through Parliament and become Law. With regard to the other and equally important questions—namely, the fisheries and railways with which the noble Earl dealt—his right hon. Friend was precluded from introducing any measures dealing with these questions until the question of arterial drainage has been entirely disposed of. He must tell the noble Earl that Her Majesty's Government had no intention as that which he imputed to them—of living on the credit of the promises which they had made, and not carrying out those promises to their fulfilment; but they intended to continue to deal with these great and important subjects connected with Ireland at the earliest possible opportunity, and they hoped that all the recommendations of the Royal Commission would be carried out in the ensuing Session.
    House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.