Lords Sitting of 11 August 1888

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Municipal Funds (Ireland) (278), discharged.
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Third Reading—Imperial Defence (276); National Defence (277), and passed.
Committee—Report—Third Reading—Members of Parliament) (Charges and Allegations) (263), and passed.
Third Reading—Bail (Scotland) (262), and passed.

MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (CHARGES AND ALLEGATIONS) BILL.—(No. 263.)
(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

COMMITTEE.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that he wished to contradict a rather absurd statement which appeared in The Times newspaper—that he and his noble Friends went out in a body after the second reading as a kind of demonstration against the Bill. Of course, there was nothing further to be done with the Bill after the second reading had been agreed to. But, independently of that, as a matter of fact, his noble and learned Friend (Lord Herschell) and himself remained in the House some time after the second reading, and his other noble Friends simply went out because the Business of the House was practically concluded.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, he would take the opportunity of adding to what had been said that some remarks had been attributed to him ill reference to the action

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of the Judge in the case of "O'Donnell v. Walter," which had no foundation in fact. What he had referred to was the historical interposition of the Judge. He had not in the smallest degree meant to impute any blame to the learned Judge, nor did he think that any words of his deserved the interpretation which had been put on them.
House in Committee accordingly.
LORD HERSCHELLsaid, he should like to ask one question in regard to what was proposed to be done by the Bill. Among the charges and allegations included in the terms of reference were those that had been made against Mr. O'Donnell; but those charges had already been investigated, and a conclusion arrived at by a judicial tribunal. Would it be within the scope of the inquiry that these charges should be investigated again; and, if not, would it not be as well specially to exclude any matters that had been already investigated?
LORD HALSBURYsaid, he thought, if he might say so, that the noble and learned Lord's question was founded on a misapprehension. As he understood the case of "O'Donnell v. Walter," the suggestion was that the charges had no reference whatever to Mr. O'Donnell.
LORD HERSCHELLsaid, that was so with regard to many of the charges; but there were some charges which it was believed did or might apply to Mr. O'Donnell.
LORD HALSBURYsaid, he understood the jury to say that they did not think the charges referred to Mr. O'Donnell. He did not think it would be expedient to alter the terms of the Bill, as it came from the other House. But, no doubt, if the facts were as the noble and learned Lord stated, the Commission would probably consider the terms of the Bill, and exclude everything that was not proper for consideration.
LORD HERSCHELLsaid, he had no doubt that the learned Judges would do all that was right when the inquiry was entered upon.
Bill reported, without Amendment.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK)said, they were indebted to the courtesy of
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the noble Earl, who was not present, (Earl Granville), and those who acted with him, for having been able to make such progress with the measure; and under the circumstances of the case he trusted that their Lordships would now allow it to be read a third time. If there were the least objection to this course he would not press the proposal. But, with the assent of the noble and learned Lord (Lord Herschell) and his Friends on the Front Opposition Bench, he would now move that the Bill be read a third time.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Lord President.)
LORD HERSCHELLsaid, that inconvenience might be occasioned if the third reading were postponed till Monday. He and his noble Friends willingly gave their assent to the Motion of the noble Viscount, but it must not be understood to imply any diminution of hostility to the Bill.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a, and passed.

MORTMAIN AND CHARITABLE USES BILL.

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS.
  Commons' Amendments considered (according to order).
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, that this Bill had been passed through the House of Lords as a Consolidation Bill, and the noble and learned Lord in charge of it objected to any Amendment being introduced. But in the House of Commons large additions bad been made to Clause 7. There had been included in the exemption from the operation of the Mortmain Acts the Universities of London and Durham and the Victoria University. The inclusion of those Universities made a very large addition indeed to the existing exemptions. All Colleges and houses of learning within these Universities were included in this privilege, and it might be a question how far Colleges affiliated to these Universities would claim a like exemption. If so, the scope of exemption would be enormously extended. He, therefore, begged to move an Amendment to include Keble College, by adding the words "and the warden, council, and

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  scholars of Keble College." Keble College was incorporated by Royal Charter, but was not technically part of the University of Oxford. A Bill for conferring upon Keble College exemption from the restrictions of the Mortmain Act had passed the House of Lords that Session, but was met in the House of Commons on the third reading by a Resolution that such a question ought to be settled by public and not by private legislation. The College had been for many purposes a part of the University, and had done admirable work for 18 years. The Council, of which he was a member, was constantly applied to with reference to their powers under the Mortmain Acts, and they had a power of holding land to the value of £5,000 a-year; but the incapacity of testators to bequeath still remained, and would be obviated by his Amendment. He begged leave to move the Amendment.
  Amendment moved, in Clause 7, Sub-section 1, after ("colleges,") to insert ("or to or in trust for the warden, council, and scholars of Keble College.")—(The Earl Beauchamp.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that there were no Colleges affiliated to the University of London, though there were some many years ago. Keble College was not technically within the University of Oxford. He did not think that while King's College and University College were not exempted it would be expedient to include Keble College. His sole knowledge of the question was derived from his connection with the University of London as a member of the Senate. He objected to the introduction of this Amendment at the last stage of the Bill.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPunderstood that Yorkshire College, Leeds, was affiliated to the Victoria University. The noble Earl had touched the case of London University, but had not referred to Victoria University, and what he was asking the House to do was what in other instances they had already done. They had already passed a Bill giving Keble College those privileges. It had been resisted in its progress in "another place," and he now only asked their Lordships to put Keble College in the position it would have been in if the Amendment relating to public legisla-
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  tion had not been introduced on the third reading.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, that, to some extent, he agreed with his noble Friend. At the same time, he would point out that when the Bill left the House it was simply a Consolidation Bill of Mortmain Laws, and if it had been allowed to remain in that form it would have been impossible to introduce this Amendment. But, unfortunately, a practice had grown up of making Amendments in Consolidation Bills; and in this Bill the Commons had introduced the Amendment with respect to the Victoria University. It was, therefore, not unnatural of his noble Friend to move this Amendment. But if this inconvenient practice were continued, it would render all attempts at consolidation perfectly useless, if not altogether impossible. He did not altogether object to the Amendment of the noble Earl, but desired to point out that if it was pressed it would probably imperil the Bill.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Duke of BUCKINGHAM and CHANDOS)agreed with the Lord Chancellor that this practice was a very inconvenient one. Their Lordships were under a great disadvantage in considering the Bill, as they were without a copy of the Committee's Amendments and of the Amendment the noble Earl proposed.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, he should persist in his Amendment.
  On Question, whether the words be here inserted? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 11; Not-Contents 7: Majority 4.

  CONTENTS,

  Halsbury, L. (L. Chancellor.)

  Fortescue, E.

  Cranbrook V. (L. President.)

  Brabourne, L.

  Denman, L.

  Foxford, L. (E. Limerick.) [Teller.]

  Rutland, D.

  Knutsford, L.

  Stratheden and Campbell, L.

  Beauchamp, E. [Teller.]

  Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Buckingham and Chandos, D. [Teller.]

  Elphinstone, L.

  FitzGerald, L.

  Herschell, L.

  Kimberley, E. [Teller.]

  Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.)

  Waldegrave, E.

COUNTY COURTS CONSOLIDATION AND AMENDMENT BILL.

  CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS.
  Commons' Amendments considered (according to order).
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, he wished to renew, in a most emphatic form, the protest which he had just made against the introduction of Amendments to a Consolidation Bill. There were several Amendments introduced into the Bill in regard to which he should certainly have taken the sense of the House, as he did not agree with them, were it not for the period at which the Bill came before them and his fear of jeopardizing its passing. He introduced the measure simply as a Consolidation Bill, the first step towards the amendment of the law being to reduce to a compact form what the law was. Under the circumstances, he had no alternative but to propose that their Lordships should agree with the Commons in their Amendments, but, at the same time, uttered his protest against the practice. He might point out that the noble and learned Lord (Lord Herschell) held that the subject the Bill dealt with required amendment, but that he had refrained from bringing forward Amendments, as the Bill was one purely for consolidating purposes.
  LORD HERSCHELLagreed with the noble and learned Lord that the practice of inserting Amendments in Consolidation Bills was very inconvenient; but, at the same time, stated that the temptation offered to do so when Consolidation Bills were brought forward was more than some hon. Members could resist. It was frequently the only opportunity which presented itself for attempting to amend an objectionable law. In very few cases could Amendments be effected otherwise than by a Bill promoted by the Government, private Members' Bills having very little chance of passing.
  Commons' Amendments agreed to.

IMPERIAL DEFENCE BILL.—(No. 276.)
(The Lord Harris.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYcomplained of the inconvenience of bringing important Bills of this character before the House at that late period of the Session, when there was no possibility of giving adequate consideration and discussion to them. He should be sorry to offer opposition to the Bill, as it was a measure for the defence of the country; but he thought the House should have had full information as to the objects of the Bill. He had frequently protested in the House against this method of passing Bills.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK)said, that it was absolutely necessary for the welfare of the country from a military point of view that this Bill should pass, and he would appeal to his noble Friend's generosity to allow it to go through that day.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, that, no doubt, it would be inconvenient to prevent the Bill from passing, and that was the reason why he complained of the manner in which such Bills were placed before their Lordships.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; Bill read 3a, and passed.

NATIONAL DEFENCE BILL.
(The Lord Harris.)

(NO. 277.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK), in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that it was a Bill of a similar character to that which had just been passed.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord President.)
LORD DENMANsaid, that Bills being appointed for a second reading on a Saturday could not be read a second time on that day three months, as there would be no Sitting on a Saturday. He had three Bills—namely, Extension of Municipal Franchise (Ireland) to Women, ordered to be read on the 28th of August—Women's Suffrage Bill, ordered to be read on the 28th of Sep-

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tember, and the Duration of Speeches in Parliament Bill, ordered to be read on the 16th of October. The last Bill was said to be unnecessary, as the Standing Orders of their Lordships' House and the Rules of Procedure in the House of Commons could each regulate their own proceedings.
VISCOUNT CRANBROOKrose to Order, and pointed out that the noble Lord's remarks were irrelevant to the subject before the House.
LORD DENMANwent on to explain that if the House of Commons would not allow any reform of their Lordships' House to begin in it, he (Lord Denman) might offer for their acceptance or rejection a Bill affecting the House of Commons beginning in the House of Lords. This was a part of clôture when the Irish Church Bill was before the House. He, to-gether with an Irish Peer, was howled down, and he then said—"I will fight any one of you." The age of duelling was gone here, but retained in France. He did not suppose any of their Lordships would wish to risk his life against that of a man of 83; but if he had said anything offensive he would accept a challenge. He denied the right of the two leading Parties in the House to close a debate.
Afterwards,
LORD DENMANsaid, he desired to apologize to the House, preferring to ask a Question of the Lord Chancellor as to Notice; but he would put a Notice of his Question on the Paper for Monday.
VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that no Business would be taken on Monday but merely the Royal Commission.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived; Bill read 3a, and passed.

VICTORIA UNIVERSITY BILL.—(No. 218.)
(The Lord Herschell.)

THIRD READING.
Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.
LORD HERSCHELLasked permission of the House to read this Bill, which would enable the University to hold lands in mortmain, a third time, notwithstanding that it was not on the Paper of Business for the day. It had
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passed through all its stages except the third reading, and that had been delayed by the fact that the Mortmain Bill had not been disposed of. The Amendment just made in that Bill had imperilled its passing this Session; and, in that case, this Bill, unless read a third time to-day, would be postponed till November. Such postponement might prevent the University from receiving benefactions which it otherwise might receive. The Bill enabled the University to acquire land in mortmain. But this had already been done in the Mortmain Act. The provision in the general Act would have rendered unnecessary the clause in the special Bill. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would read the Bill a third time.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a."—(The Lord Herschell.)
EARL BEAUCHAMPwas understood to object to the third reading.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he must complain of the ungenerous conduct of the noble Earl. The noble Earl had obtained, by a small majority in a thin House, an Amendment to the Mortmain Bill, though his Amendment was not on the Paper, and there was no notice of it, and now he turned round upon his noble and learned Friend, and objected to this Motion. He (the Earl of Kimberley) asked the House to assent to the Motion, and thought that the objection of the noble Earl was most unreasonable, and, indeed, ungracious on his part.
EARL BEAUCHAMPexplained that his Amendment to the Mortmain Act was handed in by him to the Clerks on Thursday, and it was not his fault if it had not been printed.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)asked whether there was any precedent for a Bill being passed by their Lordships' House which was not on the Paper?
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he quite admitted that that could not be done save by the consent of the House; and, therefore, as the noble Earl opposite had objected, nothing could be done in the matter. That objection, however, he regarded as ungenerous and misplaced.
Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.
The Lord KINTORE (E. Kintore)chosen Speaker in the absence of the Lord Chancellor and the Lords Commissioners.
House adjourned at half past One o'clock, to Monday next, a quarter before Two o'clock.