HL Deb 27 April 1888 vol 325 cc732-6

(The Lord Hobhouse.)

(NO. 6.) COMMITTEE.

House in Committee (according to Order).

Clause 1 (Memorandum of enfranchisement to be enrolled and take effect as award) agreed to.

LORD HOBHOUSE,

in moving the insertion of a new clause, said, the object of the Bill was to enable parties to enter memorandums upon Court Rolls when they had agreed upon the compensation to be made, and to give such memorandums the effect of an award; but by the Act of last year power was given to get rid of quit rents, and it had been found that in some manors which were now extinct there was no Court to go to, and therefore memorandums could not be entered. In such cases, a receipt would, by the new clause, have the same effect. There could be no objection to that course except by the Treasury, on the ground that it would interfere with the Stamp Duties; and the consent of the Treasury had been obtained.

Moved, after Clause 1, insert as a new Clause— In every case where the compensation to be paid for the extinguishment of the rights or incidents mentioned in the seventh section of the Copyhold Act, 1887, has been ascertained under the Copyhold Acts without reference to the Commissioners, and such compensation has been duly paid or secured to the lord or the owner of such rights and incidents, and there is no existing manor, or no court roll on which a memorandum can be entered, a receipt for such compensation, signed by such lord or owner, shall be as effectual as an award of enfranchisement for extinguishing such rights and incidents, and for releasing and enfranchising the land subject thereto."—(The Lord Hobhouse.)

New Clause agreed to.

Clause 2 (Stamp Duty).

On the Motion of Lord HOBHOUSE, the following Amendments made:—At the end of line 27 add ("and every such receipt"); after Clause 2, insert a new Clause which, after some conversation, was agreed to, as follows:— The second schedule to this Act shall be substituted for the schedule to the Copyhold Act, 1837, and section twenty-seven of that Act shall be read as referring to the second schedule to this Act.

Clause 3 (Provision for mortgages where enfranchisement effected by memorandum).

On the Motion of Lord HOBHOUSE, the following Amendments made:—In line 1, leave out ("it shall appear that"); lines 3 and 4, leave out ("for the purpose of securing any sum of money"); lines 4 and 5, leave out ("shall state the purport of such surrender or customary mortgage and.")

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4 (Boundaries of land enfranchised by memorandum).

On the Motion of Lord HOBHOUSE, the following Amendment made:—At end of Clause add— ("Subject to any agreement between the parties such plan shall be made at the cost of the party requiring it.")

On the Motion of The Earl of MILLTOWN, the following new Clause was inserted after Clause 4:— (Power to agree with regard to minerals, &c.) In any agreement under the third section of the Copyhold Act, 1887, any lord or any tenant may provide for the reservation or grant to the lord of any rights, casements, or liberties over the surface of the land to be enfranchised, whether in relation to the minerals under or upon the same or any other matter.

THE EARL OF MILLTOWN

said, that the new clauses he was about to propose were unanimously agreed to by the Select Committee of their Lordships' House last Session; but they were afterwards dropped in "another place," because it was understood that they would be opposed by some hon. Members who took an extreme view of the rights of the tenants. He thought that it was not fair to their Lordships' Committee, which had given great care and consideration to the subject, nor respectful to their Lordships' House, that this important clause, the object of which was to enable minerals to be worked when the lord and the tenant could not agree should be rejected without discussion.

Moved, to insert the following Clauses:— (Provisions as to minerals where existing rights have been reserved on enfranchisement.) Whereas in many manors the freehold ownership of minerals contained in copyhold tenements is vested in the lord, but subject to the copyhold or possessory interests of the tenant, so that neither party can work such minerals without the consent of the other: and whereas in many cases of enfranchisement such rights have been left unaffected: Be it enacted, that in all such cases, and in similar cases, occurring upon enfranchisements effected after the passing of this Act, the following provisions shall apply:— (a.) The lord may give to the tenant notice in writing that he desires to work for and get any of such minerals, and for that purpose to purchase from the tenant such rights of way, of sinking shafts, or working by out-stroke, or otherwise, as the lord shall specify in his notice. (b.) Agreements may be made by or on behalf of the lord and the tenant as to the amount and nature of the compensation to be paid for the acquisition of such rights as fully and effectually as similar agreements may be made with respect to compensation for land to be enfranchised. (c.) If no such agreement is made within six months after service of the notice, the matter may be referred by either party to the Land Commissioners, including the question whether the compensation is to be by a capital sum or a rentcharge or a royalty, and the Commissioners shall determine the same. (d.) The lord may exercise the rights specified in his notice when, and not before, the compensation, if by way of gross sum, has been paid, or, if by way of rent or royalty, has been finally ascertained. (e.) Any compensation payable by way of gross sum shall be paid over, held, and dealt with for the benefit of the persons interested therein in the same manner, mutatis mutandis, as compensation payable to the lord in a gross sum would be dealt with under the Copyhold Acts, or as near thereto as the circumstances of the case will admit. Nothing in this section shall derogate from any special interest in, or right or power over, minerals which may have been acquired by express and special agreement between lord and tenant, whether at the date of the enfranchisement or otherwise.

(Preceding section to apply to successors in title.) The preceding section shall apply to the successors in title of the persons who were lord and tenant respectively at the date of the enfranchisement as fully as if the copyhold tenure of the minerals contained in the enfranchised land had been kept on foot to all intents and purposes, and as if the copyhold tenure in the land enfranchised had been kept on foot to all intents and purposes, and as if the owner for the time being of the enfranchised land were still the copyhold tenant thereof."—(The Earl of Milltown.)

LORD HOBHOUSE

said, these clauses were most important, and he would be glad if they could be passed into law. They were in the Bill of last year, and were dropped in the House of Commons, and he feared that the placing of them in this Bill would endanger its passing through the other House. They were opposed on their merits, and also on the ground that they did not apply to copyhold tenements.

New Clauses agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)

said, he would call the attention of the noble Lord to the fact that the words just inserted did not seem to have sufficient regard to special customs in Derbyshire and Devonshire as to the payment of compensation in certain cases, and hoped that the question would be dealt with on the Report.

Clause 5 agreed to.

Schedules agreed to, with Amendments.

The Report of the Amendments to be received on Friday the 3rd of May next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 77.)