Lords Sitting of 27 April 1888

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Poor Law Relief, The Lord Archbishop of Canterbury disch.: Earl of Jersey, The Lord Bishop of Rochester, Lord Sandhurst added.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Augmentation of Benefices Act Amendment * (78); Duration of Speeches in Parliament * (79); Municipal Franchise Extension (Ireland) * (80).
Committee—Copyhold Acts Amendment (6–77).
Third Reading—Metropolitan Board of Works Commission * (62), and passed.
Royal Assent—Army (Annual) [51 Vict. c. 4]; East India (Purchase and Construction of Railways) [51 Vict. c. 5].

RAILWAYS—EMPLOYES' HOURS OF DUTY.
OBSERVATIONS QUESTION.
EARL DE LA WARR,in rising to call attention to the recent Return of railway servants' hours of duty; and to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether there is any objection to have a periodical Return to the Board of Trade of exceptional cases of overtime employment, said, that an analysis of the Return of railway employés' a hours of duty in the months of June and July last showed that there were 252,209 instances of being on duty 13 hours; 160,132 instances of being on duty 14 hours; 110,160 for 15 hours; 57,835 for 16 hours; 27,066 for 17 hours; and 25,525 for 18 hours and upwards. These included passenger and goods guards, drivers and firemen, and signalmen. On the Great Eastern Railway the percentage of passenger guards on duty more than 12 hours at a time during the month of January, 1887, was 4½ per cent; of goods guards 91½ per cent; of drivers and firemen 83½ per cent; and of signalmen 45¾ per cent. During the same time the figures for the Great Northern Railway were—Passenger guards, 26¾ per cent; goods guards, 87½ per cent; drivers and firemen, 92¾ per cent; and signalmen, 16⅓ per

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cent. On the Great Western, for the same time, the percentage of passenger guards was ¾; goods guards, 73⅔; drivers and firemen, 91; and signalmen 5¾. Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway—Passenger guards, 54½1 goods guards, 98 drivers and firemen, 96⅓;signalmen, 47 per cent. London and North-Western—Passenger guards, 9½ per cent; goods guards, 67⅓ per cent; drivers and firemen, 89¾; signalmen, 8½ per cent. London, Brighton, and South Coast—Passenger guards, 2 per cent; goods guards, nil; drivers and firemen, 98½; and signalmen, nil. On the Loudon and South-Western no passenger guards were on duty over 12 hours, and no signalmen. The percentage of goods guards was 19¾ and of drivers and firemen 15⅓. From a Return of the North-Eastern Railway, it appeared that of the signalmen employed on the 136 signal-boxes between Edinburgh and Darlington 45 were on duty for not more than 10 hours, the limit that ought not to be exceeded to secure safety; while 91 were on duty over that period each day.
THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OF TRADE (The Earl of ONSLOW)said, he was not going to ask their Lordships to offer any opposition to the Return which had been moved for by the noble Earl, but he desired to point out that the Return which had already been presented was not a satisfactory one. The noble Earl, who had moved for a Return of overtime during the months of January and July, could hardly have chosen two months which gave a more erroneous impression as to the average number of hours during which railway servants were at work. In January the traffic was frequently obstructed by snow-blocks, there was a constantly recurring danger caused by fogs, and men who were experienced in signalling had often to be on fog duty for a number of hours at a stretch. Besides, men were occasionally taken ill, and other men of tried ability for signalling had to take their places, and probably work a little longer than ordinary. Again, July was a month when the excursion traffic was at its height, and it was necessary to bear in mind that when men were sent out with excursion trains they had charge only of one train, and that a considerable portion of the time returned as "on duty"
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was spent it might be at the seaside or at race meetings. The men were not working from the time they left until they returned, but were paid for the whole time. Therefore, he thought that a Return for overtime during these two months only would be apt to produce a very erroneous impression. In the case of engine-drivers, the Companies did all they could to prevent them from being too long on duty. For instance, on the London and North-Western there was an order that when a driver had been 15 hours at work he should report the fact to a stationmaster, who would telegraph to the nearest available station in order that the driver might be relieved on his arrival there. The drivers were fined if that order was not obeyed. If the Returns asked for were not accurate, they were worse than useless; he, therefore, hoped that the noble Earl would confer with him in order to settle the best way in which the real truth as to overtime could be ascertained, and also to settle the form in which the Return ought to be laid on the Table.
LORD STALBRIDGEsaid, the noble Earl had given a correct account of how Railway Companies acted in regard to their men. They paid for overtime at the rate of time and a-quarter on the London and North-Western line, of which he was a Director, and he believed it was also paid for on all other lines. Therefore it was obvious that it was not the interest of the Companies to encourage overtime. The noble Earl who represented the Board of Trade had mentioned that there was an order on the London and North-Western that all men who found themselves on duty for 15 hours should immediately report the circumstance to the stationmaster of the first station at which they stopped, in order that relief might be ready for them at the next available station. He might inform their Lordships that that order had been in existence for many years past. There was this reason why in some cases there must be overtime. The two most unfavourable months in the year for the Railway Companies—namely, January and July—had been selected by the noble Earl for the proposed Return. It would be in the memory of most noble Lords that in the month of January there had been extraordinary fogs, which lasted in some instances for

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six days; and those who were acquainted with railway working would agree with him that it was astonishing that the traffic was so well conducted during the prevalence of the fog. There was hardly any accident, and on the London and North-Western hardly any train was late. Those facts told greatly in favour of the managers of the railways, and of the devotion of their employés. Overtime was an absolute necessity in this country, and for the following reason. If any Railway Company were to keep a sufficiently large number of men, engines, and brakesmen to meet the maximum traffic, the result obviously would be that the men would necessarily be on short time for a large part of the year. What the Companies wanted were loyal, devoted, and experienced men. They must have such men to work the trains, and if they had to work a few hours' overtime at certain times of the year they got the benefit of it on other occasions. On the London and North-Western Line and on other lines the men had every opportunity of making their grievances known to their superiors. He knew very well that the Directors of every well-regulated line did their best to diminish this overtime. In some cases, however, there was a difficulty in preventing men from working overtime, because they naturally liked the extra wages. Sometimes, when a man was entered on the list as having worked for 16 or 18 hours, perhaps he might have been resting or standing idle for from eight to 10 hours, and consequently he was well able to go on and to continue his duties after that time. In spite of what the noble Earl had said, he thought the figures showed that the passenger guards, the signalmen, and the passenger drivers had been kept within well-controlled time. There was another point in regard to the engine-drivers on the London and North-Western. What the Company did was this. At every place where they had a large number of engines and enginemen they had lodging-houses kept on purpose for them. The houses were fitted up with bedrooms, and had every accommodation for cooking, so that immediately a man had finished his journey he could go into one of these houses and take his rest. He got his lodging for nothing, and was ready for the return journey. He did not wish to weary the
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Lord with an enumeration of particular cases, but he could show in almost every instance that some special reason existed for the overtime. There were 23 instances of men working 16 hours a-day. In one case, however, there were but few trains, and the man was on duty only five days a-week. In another case a man had to wait for a single train; and these were typical instances of overtime with signalmen. On the North-Eastern Railway the guard of an excursion train was on duty for 20¼ hours, but 10½, hours of that he was at rest in the terminal station. It was impossible on a great line of railway to avoid occasional irregularities, and in these cases no physical suffering was endured. In one case a Member of Parliament required a special train on a branch line early in the morning. A number of signalmen were thus made to appear as having worked eight hours' overtime and having had to resume work after four hours' rest, though they only had this one train to wait for. Again, on the Midland there were four goods guards, each of whom was on duty between 21 and 22 hours. This was caused by the delay of trains in consequence of a landslip. On the previous day there had been a dense fog, which utterly disorganized work; but most of the time the men were sitting in their brakes smoking their pipes. In the Erewash Valley, again, five guards were on duty for exceptionally long hours in consequence of a fog. Without these explanations entirely wrong impressions were likely to get abroad on the question of overtime. In these exceptional cases it was obvious that it would not be safe to trust to any but the most experienced men. On the London and North-Western Railway the total number of passenger guards was 439, and in the month of July only 44 worked more than 12 hours—that was 3·18 per cent; and out of the 2,165 signalmen the number was 14, or 0·64 per cent. No doubt the enginemen worked rather longer overtime than the other men. The total engine mileage of the London and North Western Railway was over 54,000,000, and of this 12 per cent was special mileage—that was, when trains were called out for special purposes, sometimes at a moment's notice, in the case of goods trains, for urgent or perishable goods, such as fish, &c. The re-

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turns of the London and North-Western Railway reflected great credit on the locomotive department, and it was a great mistake to suppose that no effort was taken to prevent or reduce overtime. The Directors knew that the men were not dissatisfied, and that the public were not dissatisfied. He could appeal to the list of accidents for 1885–6, in which only two cases were to be found in which there was any question of any of the men concerned working unduly long hours. He was not arguing against the Return, but lie hoped that for the purposes of the next Return fair working months would be chosen, say April and September. These Returns, however, were a source of great expense to the Railway Companies and to the country, and he hoped they would not be moved for year after year.
EARL DELA WARRsaid, he was quite ready to accept what had been offered by the noble Earl. He wished also to say that the months were not chosen by himself, and that no one more highly appreciated than himself the admirable way in which our railways were managed.

LIGHTHOUSES AND LIGHTSHIPS— TELEGRAPHIC COMMUNICATION WITH THE SHORE.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, he rose to call attention to the Report of the Committee appointed by the Board of Trade to inquire into the desirability of electrical communication between light vessels and outlying lighthouses and the shore. An interesting discussion on this important question had been recently held at a meeting of the Associated Chambers of Commerce, and at a meeting of the Plymouth Chamber, of which he was a member, there had been a discussion on the question which was well worth attention. The Committee had dealt mainly with lightships and lighthouses near the mouth of the Thames, though the recommendations of some Chambers of Commerce went so far as to urge that cables all round the coast should connect all the lighthouses with the General Post Office system, That, however, would involve great expense. He hoped that the Bill—which, he believed, was shortly to be intro-
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  duced—would enable Lloyd's to purchase sites for their signal stations. He desired to call attention to the subject, particularly in connection with saving life at sea. At present the only means of communicating information of wrecks from lightships or lighthouses was by rockets and guns; but these signals were not wholly satisfactory. The guns often were not heard, and in fogs the rockets were not seen; and, in many cases, they did not indicate the position of the wreck—a matter of the highest importance—nor did they give any information as to its size, or the number of passengers to be saved; whereas the telegraph could at once communicate all these particulars. He need not dwell on the enormous importance of time in these cases. A few hours, often a few minutes, made all the difference between absolute disaster and the saving of life. He might quote from the experience of the coxswain of the lifeboat at Ramsgate to show the inestimable value of telegraphic communication, and that, under the present system of rockets, a wreck might lie for many hours in great peril without those on land, 20 miles away, knowing anything about it. He particularly mentioned the case of the Indian Chief, which got aground early in the morning. In this instance, telegraphic communication would have been of the greatest importance. He thought it would be sufficient to read one paragraph from the evidence of Captain Glover, who mentioned that telegraphic communication would have been the means of saving hundreds of lives. The superintendent of the telegraph department of Lloyd's gave a number of instances in which telegraphic communication would have saved lives. In the case of the Schiller, lost about 15 years ago, 331 lives were sacrificed, and the Coroner's jury gave it as their opinion that if there had been electric communication the vessel would have been saved. He would also mention a case off the coast of his own county, where a vessel which was wrecked might I have been saved if her state had been known in time. This system had been adopted in Canada, where telegraphic communication was used for commercial purposes, as well as in North Germany, where the lighthouses were connected with the shore, in Denmark, and, ho thought, in Sweden and Norway. He

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  was not anxious now to urge on the Government a great expenditure; but he wished to insist that the question should not be lost sight of. He hoped that they would hear that there would be a gradual extension of the system. The country at large was interested to an extraordinary extent, a year or two ago, in the subject of the saving of life at sea; and he ventured to think that, without incurring very large expense, communications might be established between certain prominent lightships, and also outlying lighthouses, and the shore by means of the appliances of modern science. He hoped the subject would be seriously considered by the Board of Trade, and that gradually and cautiously the system would be extended.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE BOARD OE TRADE (The Earl of ONSLOW)said, that the subject to which the noble Earl had called attention was one which interested a very large and important body in this country—namely, the Mercantile Marine. At the outset it was important to call attention to the terms of reference of the Committee. It was appointed with the special object of facilitating the saving of life at sea, and the reason for that reference was that the funds which the Government were enabled to devote to that purpose could only be derived from one source, and that source was the Mercantile Marine Fund. Now, by the Merchant Shipping Act of 1854, it was provided that the Mercantile Marine Fund should be applied to the Local Marine Board and purposes connected with it, the expenses of surveyors of steamships, expenses of Lighthouse Authorities, lastage and ballastage of the Thames, expenses of Wreck Receivers, the preservation of life and property from and in case of shipwreck, any expenses specially charged by Act of Parliament, and "for no other purpose whatever." Therefore it was quite impossible to apply any portion of the Mercantile Marine Fund for the purpose of establishing electrical communication around our shores for commercial purposes. If it was desired to do anything in that way in the interests of commerce, the fund must be provided by shipowners themselves or by the Post Office, who were bound by Treasury regulations to incur no expenditure which would not either prove
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  remunerative or be guaranteed by those deriving benefit from it. Apart, however, from the question of cost, there was a question of danger to the lightships themselves, because if masters were able to make communications with the shore through the lightships, the number of vessels which would approach to the lightships would largely increase, with the consequent risk that the lightships might be run down and a dangerous shoal or sandbank left absolutely unprotected. It was the duty of the Board of Trade and the Lighthouse Authorities to see that expenditure for this purpose was devoted, in the first place, to the prevention of wrecks, and not to offering temptations for lightships being approached for signalling purposes. A few years ago the lighthouse dues were very largely reduced, and the bad trade had caused a further falling-off. The consequence was that in 1886 it was found necessary to borrow for the purposes of the Mercantile Marine Fund the sum of £250,000 from the funds of Greenwich Hospital. In 1886–7 £100,000 of that sum had to be expended in order to make up a deficiency between receipts and expenditure. Taking the accounts for 1886–7, the last completed, as representing the annual expenditure and as a basis of comparison, the deficiency for the year 1887–8 might be taken at £160,000, being £68,000 in excess of dues for maintenance of lighthouses and new works, and £92,000 in excess of income upon other branches of the service—namely, Mercantile Marine offices, surveys of ships, expenses of saving life on the coast, and relief of distressed seamen abroad. But inasmuch as the receipts from light dues had increased by £12,000, and as the accounts of the Lighthouse Boards for only six months for the last year, 1887–8, had been as yet received, he had obtained from those Boards an estimate of their expenditure for the succeeding three months to December 31, 1887. This information led to the conclusion that the deficiency for the whole year 1887–8 might possibly not exceed £110,000. During the last 10 years there had been an average of about £50,000 expended on new works. In the unfortunate state of the Mercantile Marine Fund the Board of Trade had done all they could to reduce the expenditure on new works, but they had not

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  been able to reduce it below £85,800. The reason of this was that in these days shipowners and perhaps shipmasters were tempted to drive their ships by lights, instead of, as in times past, navigating them by the lead. Consequently, demands would continue to be made for illuminants of higher powers, for fog signals emitting increased volumes of sound, and other appliances which inventors were not slow to urge the Board of Trade to adopt. As things were, the means of signalling ships coming to our ports were very considerable, and shipowners had no great difficulty in obtaining early information regarding the approach of their vessels. It was a difficult and expensive task to establish communication between isolated rocks and the mainland, but experiments were now being carried out by Lloyd's without actual metallic contact in this direction, and if those experiments were successful there was reason to hope that the system of communication between outlying rocks and the land might be very largely made use of. For vessels coming up the east end of the Channel there were ample means of communication, as there were stations at Dungeness, Beachy Head, two at Dover, and one at Deal, while it was under consideration whether there should not be another at the North Foreland. Vessels approaching the Thames from the North were reported at Southend Pier, and it was contemplated to establish a station at Orfordness, which vessels approaching the Thames could hardly miss. For the East Coast north of the Thames there were Flamborough, Yarmouth, Grimsby, and Aldborough. With regard to the experiments which had been made at the Sunk lightship, they had been very costly. The ship cost £7,000 without the fog signals; but for the purposes proposed this vessel would be too small, and it would be necessary to expend £8,000 on any other ship for like purposes, while the cost of maintenance would amount to £2,420 a-year, exclusive of £4,000 for the cable. What had been the practical results of the Sunk experiments? Since its establishment the ship had only called the lifeboat out seven times by telegraph, and on every one of those occasions the lifeboat had been apprised earlier by the rocket signals. It must be remembered that it was
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  not possible always to have a man watching the shore end of the cable; he might be in bed, and only be called up by the ringing of the bell, and then he would have to go out to give the message. It was true that there was one advantage of communication by cable—namely, that it might prevent the lifeboat from going out on a futile errand after the wreck had been got off; but he must point out that the lifeboat men were paid for every time they went out 10 s. in the day and £1 at night. It had been argued that by having cable communication those on shore were able to know the exact locality of the wreck; but it must be remembered that rockets were fired in the direction of the wreck, and consequently the lifeboat men were able to form an accurate idea as to where the wreck was lying. It might be the case that cable communication would have been of advantage in the case of the Deutschland and the Indian Chief, but there the want had been not so much of communication between lightship and shore as that there was no ship at all at the most important point. Since that time a ship had been placed at the Long Sand, and only one casualty had occurred since. To establish cable communication was a very expensive matter. A light cable chafed, while with a heavy one there was the risk of the ship's anchor fouling it and the ship sheering on to the lightship and causing it considerable damage. The experiments, therefore, at the Sunk hardly justified further expenditure in the same direction. The Mercantile Marine Fund was in a state approaching bankruptcy and could not be saddled with further burdens, while shipowners were not ready to come forward themselves. Lloyd's and The Shipping Gazette had done much to prevent loss of life at sea by supplying early information, and he trusted that the Bill shortly to be introduced by Lloyd's might pass through Parliament that Session; at all events, it would meet with no opposition on the part of the Government. He held that it was the duty of the Government with respect to this question rather to prevent wrecks than to give information after they had taken place, to spend their funds upon maintaining the efficiency of our existing lightships, and then, if anything further was possible, to increase the number of those ships. He

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  could not, therefore, hold out to the noble Earl that there was any chance of the Government taking up this question at present.
  THE EARL OF CRAWFORDsaid, he was sorry to hear the answer just given by the noble Earl. He had been disappointed in the Report which had been sent to the Board of Trade by the Committee appointed to consider the question of saving life at sea, and he had himself desired to send a fuller Report, recommending that further experiments should be carried on, but in a different manner. He was, however, bound to be guided by the opinion of the remainder of the Committee, and he had, therefore, been unable to give effect to his views. He was all the more pleased., therefore, that their Lordships' attention should be called to this subject. He agreed with the noble Earl opposite that the Committee had been rather too guarded in the expression of their views. There had been several matters which they had wished to recommend; but they had been informed that the present state of the funds at the disposal of the disposal of the Board of Trade prevented any possibility of carrying out such suggestions. He believed that much would be done by the Bill which Lloyd's had promoted last Session, in which they engaged to transmit information of wrecks to the nearest lifeboat station. He was happy to say that the experiments which had been tried showed that it had been found possible to maintain electric communication between the shore and the lightships, and that the ordinary work of maintaining or repairing the cables, if broken, was carried out by the men on board the "Sunk" lightship in a most satisfactory manner. Those experiments had been continued throughout the winter with the most satisfactory results. The noble Earl had said that the cost of maintaining that communication was very great; but, on the other hand, the value of the service rendered by means of that communication ought not to be overlooked. He thought that it would be in the interests of the lightships themselves that they should be of a larger type. It had been found that, while the men on board the lightships off the coast could see for miles around them, at night the coast was hidden by fog, and no signals made
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  on the ships could be seen from the shore. In these circumstances telephonic communication between the ships and the shore would be of the utmost value. He did not advise that lightships should be made the medium of communicating between passing vessels and the shore, because that might lead a vessel into too close proximity to the lightship, and thus cause danger to both. Lightships were placed in their positions for the purpose of warning vessels to keep away, and not for the purpose of attracting them into positions of danger. He hoped that provision would be made for giving special duty pay to those seamen who, by learning the technical details of cable maintenance, wore thus saving for the Department the wages of a professional electrician.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that there had been too many objections, good, bad, and indifferent, offered by the noble Earl (the Earl of Onslow) in his reply to the observations of his noble Friend (the Earl of Morley). He was aware that it was the duty of the Government to exercise the strongest possible supervision over the expenditure of the country; but, at the same time, in the matter of saving life at sea, ho thought, even if the Mercantile Marine Fund was, as had been alleged, almost insolvent, the difficulty of want of funds for that purpose might be overcome by making an application to Parliament. It was stated on behalf of the Government that experiments had been tried with regard to electric communication between the shore and lightships, and that it had been found impossible to keep the cables in continuous I good working condition. He understood, however, that the noble Earl who had last spoken took exactly the opposite view of the matter, and that the experiments had proved successful. However that might be, the experiments ought not to be dropped, and he hoped that the Government would give the House an assurance that both in the interest of commerce and life-saving they would consider the subject further, instead of finally putting it one side.

  COPYHOLD ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  (The Lord Hobhouse.)
  (NO. 6.) COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  Clause 1 (Memorandum of enfranchisement to be enrolled and take effect as award) agreed to.
  LORD HOBHOUSE,in moving the insertion of a new clause, said, the object of the Bill was to enable parties to enter memorandums upon Court Rolls when they had agreed upon the compensation to be made, and to give such memorandums the effect of an award; but by the Act of last year power was given to get rid of quit rents, and it had been found that in some manors which were now extinct there was no Court to go to, and therefore memorandums could not be entered. In such cases, a receipt would, by the new clause, have the same effect. There could be no objection to that course except by the Treasury, on the ground that it would interfere with the Stamp Duties; and the consent of the Treasury had been obtained.
  Moved, after Clause 1, insert as a new Clause—
  "In every case where the compensation to be paid for the extinguishment of the rights or incidents mentioned in the seventh section of the Copyhold Act, 1887, has been ascertained under the Copyhold Acts without reference to the Commissioners, and such compensation has been duly paid or secured to the lord or the owner of such rights and incidents, and there is no existing manor, or no court roll on which a memorandum can be entered, a receipt for such compensation, signed by such lord or owner, shall be as effectual as an award of enfranchisement for extinguishing such rights and incidents, and for releasing and enfranchising the land subject thereto."—(The Lord Hobhouse.)
  New Clause agreed to.
  Clause 2 (Stamp Duty).
  On the Motion of Lord HOBHOUSE, the following Amendments made:—At the end of line 27 add ("and every such receipt"); after Clause 2, insert a new Clause which, after some conversation, was agreed to, as follows:—
  "The second schedule to this Act shall be substituted for the schedule to the Copyhold Act, 1837, and section twenty-seven of that Act shall be read as referring to the second schedule to this Act."
  Clause 3 (Provision for mortgages where enfranchisement effected by memorandum).
  On the Motion of Lord HOBHOUSE, the following Amendments made:—In line 1, leave out ("it shall appear that"); lines 3 and 4, leave out ("for the purpose of securing any sum of
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  money"); lines 4 and 5, leave out ("shall state the purport of such surrender or customary mortgage and.")
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4 (Boundaries of land enfranchised by memorandum).
  On the Motion of Lord HOBHOUSE, the following Amendment made:—At end of Clause add—
  ("Subject to any agreement between the parties such plan shall be made at the cost of the party requiring it.")
  On the Motion of The Earl of MILLTOWN, the following new Clause was inserted after Clause 4:—
  (Power to agree with regard to minerals, &c.)
  "In any agreement under the third section of the Copyhold Act, 1887, any lord or any tenant may provide for the reservation or grant to the lord of any rights, casements, or liberties over the surface of the land to be enfranchised, whether in relation to the minerals under or upon the same or any other matter."
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, that the new clauses he was about to propose were unanimously agreed to by the Select Committee of their Lordships' House last Session; but they were afterwards dropped in "another place," because it was understood that they would be opposed by some hon. Members who took an extreme view of the rights of the tenants. He thought that it was not fair to their Lordships' Committee, which had given great care and consideration to the subject, nor respectful to their Lordships' House, that this important clause, the object of which was to enable minerals to be worked when the lord and the tenant could not agree should be rejected without discussion.
  Moved, to insert the following Clauses:—
  (Provisions as to minerals where existing rights have been reserved on enfranchisement.)
  "Whereas in many manors the freehold ownership of minerals contained in copyhold tenements is vested in the lord, but subject to the copyhold or possessory interests of the tenant, so that neither party can work such minerals without the consent of the other: and whereas in many cases of enfranchisement such rights have been left unaffected: Be it enacted, that in all such cases, and in similar cases, occurring upon enfranchisements effected after the passing of this Act, the following provisions shall apply:—
  (a.) The lord may give to the tenant notice in writing that he desires to work for and get any of such minerals, and for that purpose to purchase from the tenant such rights of way, of sinking shafts, or working by out-stroke, or otherwise, as the lord shall specify in his notice.

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  (b.) Agreements may be made by or on behalf of the lord and the tenant as to the amount and nature of the compensation to be paid for the acquisition of such rights as fully and effectually as similar agreements may be made with respect to compensation for land to be enfranchised.
  (c.) If no such agreement is made within six months after service of the notice, the matter may be referred by either party to the Land Commissioners, including the question whether the compensation is to be by a capital sum or a rentcharge or a royalty, and the Commissioners shall determine the same.
  (d.) The lord may exercise the rights specified in his notice when, and not before, the compensation, if by way of gross sum, has been paid, or, if by way of rent or royalty, has been finally ascertained.
  (e.) Any compensation payable by way of gross sum shall be paid over, held, and dealt with for the benefit of the persons interested therein in the same manner, mutatis mutandis, as compensation payable to the lord in a gross sum would be dealt with under the Copyhold Acts, or as near thereto as the circumstances of the case will admit.
  "Nothing in this section shall derogate from any special interest in, or right or power over, minerals which may have been acquired by express and special agreement between lord and tenant, whether at the date of the enfranchisement or otherwise.
  (Preceding section to apply to successors in title.)
  "The preceding section shall apply to the successors in title of the persons who were lord and tenant respectively at the date of the enfranchisement as fully as if the copyhold tenure of the minerals contained in the enfranchised land had been kept on foot to all intents and purposes, and as if the copyhold tenure in the land enfranchised had been kept on foot to all intents and purposes, and as if the owner for the time being of the enfranchised land were still the copyhold tenant thereof."—(The Earl of Milltown.)
  LORD HOBHOUSEsaid, these clauses were most important, and he would be glad if they could be passed into law. They were in the Bill of last year, and were dropped in the House of Commons, and he feared that the placing of them in this Bill would endanger its passing through the other House. They were opposed on their merits, and also on the ground that they did not apply to copyhold tenements.
  New Clauses agreed to.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, he would call the attention of the noble Lord to the fact that the words just inserted did not seem to have sufficient regard to special
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  customs in Derbyshire and Devonshire as to the payment of compensation in certain cases, and hoped that the question would be dealt with on the Report.
  Clause 5 agreed to.
  Schedules agreed to, with Amendments.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Friday the 3rd of May next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 77.)

  AUGMENTATION OF BENEFICES ACT AMEND MENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend an Act for the augmentation of certain benefices, the right of presentation to which is vested in the Lord Chancellor—Was presented by The Lord Chancellor; read 1a. (No. 78.)
  DURATION OF SPEECHES IN PARLIAMENT BILL [H.L.] (NO. 79.)
  A Bill to ascertain and limit the duration of speeches in Parliament And

  MUNICIPAL FRANCHISE EXTENSION (IRE LAND) BILL [H.L.] (NO. 80.)
  A Bill to enable women to vote in municipal elections throughout Ireland: Were presented by The Lord Denman; read 1a.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, to Monday next, Four o'clock.