Lords Sitting of 13 September 1887

MINUTES.
SAT FIRST IN PARLIAMENT—The Lord Chaworth (Earl of Meath), after the death of his father.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Consolidated Fund (Appropriation) *; Local Authorities (Expenses) * (270).
Second Reading—Women's Suffrage (No. 2) (236), negatived.
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Third Reading—Bankruptcy (Discharge and Closure) * (261); Expiring Laws Con-

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tinuance * (263); Local Government (Boundaries) * (259); Prisons (Officers' Superannuation) (Scotland) * (264); Superannuation Acts Amendment* (262); Technical Schools) (Scotland)* (260), and passed.
Third Reading—Merchant Shipping (Miscellaneous) * (257), and passed.

TECHNICAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 260.)
(The Marquess of Lothian.)
TECHNICAL SCHOOLS (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 260.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (The Marquess of LOTHIAN),in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that he felt some explanation was due to their Lordships for bringing on a measure of this importance so late in the Session. At an earlier date, the Government intended to proceed with a Bill of a similar nature for England, and when mention was made of it, as their Lordships were aware, a general desire was expressed that there should be a Bill for Scotland, with the result that at his (the Marquess of Lothian's) request, this Bill had been introduced into the House of Commons by the Lord Advocate. The English Bill had been withdrawn; but that for Scotland met with such general acceptance that it was hoped it might be possible to carry it through this Session. And there was a strong reason why it should be carried this Session. It had, of course, passed the House of Commons; but though every endeavour had been made to push it forward with the least possible delay, the Bill had not passed the third reading in that House until Friday last, and consequently could not come before their Lordships at a Sitting earlier than the present. He regretted that all the more because he thought the Bill was preeminently one of those measures that was sure to meet with that discussion and criticism which their Lordships' House was so fitted to give, and which might lead to such amendment as would give it increased efficacy and value. Their Lordships might ask why they had pressed on with the Scottish Bill under these circumstances, when they had postponed the English Bill? Well, in answer to such a question, he could only say that the position of Scotland was distinct, and it differed from England in
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  the matter of the election of school boards. In Scotland the election of school boards was triennial, and one of these triennial elections took place next spring between March and June. One of the provisions in this Bill was, that any resolution for the establishment of a technical school must take place before the election of a school board; therefore, if the Bill had been postponed till next Session, it would practically prevent the Bill coming into operation for three years, while, under the system in England, the English Bill might be in operation before the close of next year. Such a postponement in the case of Scotland, he would very much have deprecated, because it would have been the postponement of a measure which, he believed, would be of great advantage to that country, and, under these circumstances, he had no alternative but to ask their Lordships to give the Bill a second reading now. The object of the Bill was to facilitate the establishment and maintenance of technical schools in Scotland by giving additional facilities to school boards to provide technical education to those attending board schools. The object of technical education, or, as he preferred to call it, handiwork education, was to educate together the mental and the physical powers of the young. He liked the term "handiwork" education, because "technical" education had come to mean, in the minds of most people, some special education not in the regular standards of the school work curriculum; while handiwork education pointed to this, that those for whom the school boards were in existence should, while getting their mental education, learn also how I to make use of their hands in such a way as should be useful to them in after life. The Bill had undergone considerable modifications since its introduction; but he did not intend to ask their Lordships to make alterations in Committee upon it, as most of the Amendments accepted by the Government had been submitted to him, and had met with his approval.
  LORD LINGENasked, whether a school board was limited under Clause 3 to instituting only one technical school in its district?
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN,in reply, said, that that clause provided for only one. It was impossible, he might say,

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  in conclusion, to forecast the advantages which a Bill of this kind might produce. It would probably put a final stop to the old apprenticeship system; but that system, was already dying out, and it was possibly in consequence of that fact that this Bill had been found necessary, in order to supply the thorough training which the apprenticeship system was calculated to impart. He felt certain that the Bill would receive the general acceptance of the people of Scotland, and even as it stood, and even if it did not become necessary to add to it hereafter, it was a measure which he was convinced would do a great deal of good.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Marquess of Lothian.)
  LORD LINGENsaid, he did not rise to oppose the Bill, with the object of which he entirely sympathized. It was a measure of the greatest importance, as being the first of its kind in the United Kingdom; and he could not but regret that Her Majesty's Government had not postponed it, as they might have done, together with the English, one, without serious delay, inasmuch as he believed the election of the new school boards in Scotland would not take effect before April next. They would thus have had the remainder of the Recess to consider the principles of the Bill, and the Bill might have been pushed through as quickly as possible after Parliament re-assembled, if necessary. He thought the Bill involved considerations and principles of great difficulty, which might hereafter cause considerable embarrassment. For instance, the working of it would practically be in the hands of the Science and Art Department at Kensington, and the relations of that body to the Scottish Education Department appeared to him to be left in a very indeterminate form in the Bill. He found that the Scottish Education Department was confined to the regulation of the procedure of the school boards, and the regulation of those subjects of instruction which could not be subjects of grants. Now, he need not say that those were exactly the subjects which would have nothing to do with technical schools qua technical schools. It came, therefore, to this, that these schools were so largely entrusted to the Department at South Kensington as to be practically taken away from the Scottish Education
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  Department. That appeared to him to be the effect of the Bill, so far as he had been able to study it; and he thought it was one of those measures which it was peculiarly unfortunate should be included in the "rush" which was usual at the end of a Session. There were other considerations, such as the question of the maintenance of those schools, which made it very desirable that such a Bill should be thoroughly discussed; and though he was aware that his remarks would lead to no practical conclusion, yet he had thought it desirable to place these considerations before their Lordships.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, that if he had thought it was possible, without disadvantage, to postpone the Bill till another Session, he would have done so; but, as he had already pointed out, to have done so would have been practically to postpone the Bill for three years. It would have been impossible to pass the Bill through all its stages in both Houses in time for April elections next year. As to the remark made by the noble Lord (Lord Lingen) that the control would rest with the Science and Art Department, he thought the noble Lord would see that the ultimate decision practically rested with the Scotch Education Department; and, indeed, the whole object of the Bill was as far as possible to throw the responsibility upon the Scotch Education Department. They would find that in one clause of the Bill it was provided that the subjects to be taught in these schools were to be such as were approved by the Scotch Education Department, and in Clause 6 it was provided that the schools must be conducted in accordance with the conditions made by the Scotch Education Department and set forth in the Scotch Education Code. He could assure their Lordships that the great desire was that the Scotch Education Department should have the control of the whole educational system of Scotland, except the Universities, and should themselves be responsible for that education. He would like to correct the answer he formerly gave as to school boards having the power to institute only one school; because he found that the school board should fix the fees at each technical school under the management of the Board, which showed that there might be more than one such school under one Board.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS)said, he wished to say that although there were doubts about the English Bill, the Scottish Bill had been received with so much satisfaction that the Government came to the conclusion that it would be wise to press it through this Session. He had taken the trouble to find out what was the opinion of the vast majority of the Scottish Members in the other House, and he found that the desire for the Bill was so unanimous that he could not take it upon himself not to accept the Bill as it was; and, looking to the good which might result from this Bill, he would strongly advise their Lordships now to pass it.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.
  Committee negatived: Then (Standing Order No. XXXV. having been dispensed with for the remainder of the Session) Bill read 3a, and passed.

WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE (No. 2) BILL.
(The Lord Denman.)
WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE (No. 2) BILL.

  (NO. 236.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Denman.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, he must express his surprise that the noble Lord should have made this Motion, seeing that the noble Lord stated to the House, as recorded in Hansard, on the occasion when another Bill on the same subject was brought on, that he did not intend to proceed further with this Bill this Session, but would present it again next Session. It was, besides, distinctly against the Orders of the House a second time to introduce a Bill dealing with the same subject-matter as one already rejected during the same Session. He had looked into this and the earlier Bill, and he had found that they were undoubtedly of the same subject-matter; therefore, without in the least expressing any view either in favour of or against the subject-matter of the Bill, he asked their Lordships to reject it, not on its merits, but on the ground of the irregularity of introducing it a second time in the same Session.
  On Question? Resolved in the negative.
  Ordered that the said Bill be rejected.

LAND JUDGES COURT, IRELAND.

  MOTION FOR A PAPER.
  LORD ARDILAUN,who had on the Paper a Motion calling attention to the present position of the Land Judges' Court, Ireland, said, he feared that he might have to claim their Lordships' patience while he again went closely into this question with additional information and new cases of delays in the business of this Court; but he was glad to be relieved from the necessity of doing so, as the Government had now consented to grant the Return he asked for last month. He was also happy to be able to add that the Government and the Treasury had promised to adopt the suggestion he had urged upon them—namely, that they should at once give additional assistance in the preparation of title in this Court by strengthening the examiners' department. He had, therefore, only to move for the Return which stood in his name as an unopposed Return. The Return in question was intended to show in separate columns the number of petitions tiled during the last four years, the number of estates offered for sale each year, those in which the rentals were settled, and those in which receivers were appointed, the total number of receivers at present, and the number appointed each year, the number of accounts not lodged within the limit of time appointed, or where the time had not been extended, the number of six months' settlements of account each year, the number of yearly settlements, the gross annual rental under receivers, the gross amount collected each year, the number of officials attached to the Court and their salaries, and the number and salaries of those in the receivers' department.
  Moved for Return, as follows:—
  "Number of Petitions filed during last Four Years, divided into number each Year.
  "Number of Estates offered for Sale each Year during past Four Years.
  "Number of Estates in which the Rentals were settled each Year during past Four Years.
  "Number of Estates in which Receivers were appointed, divided into in each Year during past Four Years.
  "Total Number of Receivers now, and Number appointed each Year.
  "Number of Accounts not lodged within the limit of time appointed, or where time has not been extended, divided in each Year.
  "Number of Six Months Settlements of Account each Year.

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  "Number of Yearly Settlements.
  "Gross Annual Rental under Receivers for each Year.
  "Gross Amount collected each Year.
  "Number of Officials attached to Court and their Salaries.
  "Number and Salaries of those in Receiver's Department."—(The Lord Ardilaun.)
  Motion agreed to.
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed.
  House adjourned at Ten o'clock, till To-morrow, Four o'clock.