Lords Sitting of 8 September 1887

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Committee—Coal Mines, &c. Regulation (251); Labourers' Allotments (252).
Committee — Report — Charity Commissioners (Officers) * (254); Tramways (War Department) (255).
Report—Friendly Societies Act (1875) Amendment (No. 3)* (256).
Third Reading — Metropolitan Police* (242), and passed.

ARMY—SUPPLY OF HORSES FOR MILITARY PURPOSES.
QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
LORD CLINTONasked, Whether Her Majesty's Government are in a position to make any statement as regarded the establishment of a Reserve of Horses for military purposes?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS): I am glad of the opportunity given by this Question to state the intention of the Government. Your Lordships will recollect that some months ago the noble Lord (Lord Ribblesdale) raised a discussion on the subject of the supply of horses, which remotely touched the question of horses for military purposes. The main object he had in view has, I believe, been dealt with by another De-
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partment; but I stated on that occasion that the Secretary of State would give careful consideration to any schemes that might be presented to him, having for their object the supply of horses for military purposes, and I am now prepared to state the result. Communications were received from many quarters presenting a great variety of views on the subject; some were for organizing breeding establishments, others for subsidizing stallions and mares, and others, again, for the purchase by Government of horses which should be lent to the Yeomanry, who would undertake the expense of keeping them, on the understanding that the horses were to be handed over to Government when wanted. Most of the schemes, however, would have involved a far greater expense, commensurate with the possible result, than the Secretary of State dared to contemplate; and many of them were based on the fallacy that these Islands are unable to supply easily the normal annual demand for military purposes. Military requirements may be divided into two large divisions as regards numbers, and also several subdivisions as regards stamp. The two large divisions show, on the one side, the normal and annual demand, affected by deaths and casting, and which may be taken as ranging between 1,400 and 2,000 horses. There is not the slightest difficulty in getting this number at Government prices in these Islands, the Cavalry horse, as a rule, coming from Ireland, the Artillery and Transport horse from Great Britain. On the other side is the abnormal demand which might suddenly arise from a mobilization of forces. The smaller sub-divisions, as regards stamp, represent the Cavalry, the Artillery, and the Transport horse. The abnormal demand is the question which the Government have been desirous of arranging for, and they have now prepared a scheme to meet that demand. The actual number required depends, of course, upon the number of troops mobilized; but we have no fear that the country is incapable of producing, for registration purposes, such a number of horses as will meet all reasonable requirements. The number required we believe to exist; but, without a registration system, it would be impossible to select and collect any large number in the time

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within which it should be possible to bring the horses together. Experience has proved how much time is consumed in the appointment of selection committees, the mapping out of districts, giving notice to owners of horses, and the examination and selection. To avoid that delay has been our object, while, at the same time, we have endeavoured, by preferring a voluntary system, to obviate discontent. Your Lordships may have noticed in the reports of the mobilization experiment in France that the Government have requisitioned horses for military purposes. Such a requisition must, one would think, cause dissatisfaction, or a heavy expenditure, and would, I trust, only be resorted to in England at a very grave crisis. Without a system of registration it might, however, at some time or other, become necessary, and can be avoided only by a system of registration. I have stated that we propose to make the system voluntary, or I should rather say, perhaps, that we are going to make an experiment in that direction. Compulsory registration was considered, but discarded, mainly because of the very large number of horses it would entail, many of them unsuitable for military purposes, and because, as well, of the expense of registering such numbers. What the Government propose to do is to offer an annual fee for all horses up to a certain number and within a certain age, suitable for military purposes, the owners of which are willing to place them on the register. The horses would be examined for soundness and suitability by a registration staff, and a further inducement to owners to come forward voluntarily would be an enhanced price over the Government price of the year if the horse is taken by the Government, as a compensation for the loss of its services. It is, of course, impossible to say now whether this experiment will prove successful; we are hopeful that it will, and that owners of horses—more particularly owners of largo numbers of horses—will come forward in order to benefit by the receipt of the annual fee. If it is successful, it should, from a financial point of view, be an economical system, being more or less in the form of an insurance against war risks; while, from a military point of view, the most beneficial results should ensue; for, on mobilization becoming necessary,
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the Military Authorities will have at hand a list of horses, with information as to where they are situated, and as to what purpose they are best suited. They will also be easily recognizable by a system of numbers, and easily transferable to such points of concentration as may be decided upon. The experiment will first be tried in the Metropolitan area; but it is contemplated to extend the system eventually to the whole of Great Britain and Ireland. I imagine it is probable that in its initiation the class of horse which will be found forthcoming will be suitable for Artillery and Transport purposes, as, the experiment being in London, the large Companies are most likely to meet the demand; but I hope to see the system extended in such a way as will produce the Cavalry horse as well. I would point out to your Lordships one very great advantage—namely, that these horses, if ever taken up by the Government, will, in the vast majority of cases, be seasoned horses in hard condition, not young and green, without the condition to do a day's march, or the stamina to survive a campaign. Treasury sanction has been given in general to the scheme, though there are still some points of detail as regards pay to the staff which have to be settled; but I was anxious to make this statement before your Lordships rose, and assurance having been given by the Secretary of State some time back in "another place" that the matter was under consideration. I should add that it would be more difficult to put this system into practice had it not been for a change that is about to be made in the system of purchasing remounts. Hitherto, those for Cavalry purposes have been bought by the commanding officers of Cavalry regiments, and for Artillery purposes by the Inspector and purchaser of horses for the Royal Artillery. In future, all horses for military purposes will be examined, selected, and passed into the Army by the officers of a remount establishment at headquarters. Among other advantages, we hope by this change to meet, to a certain extent, the complaint that has been made in many quarters that breeders of horses cannot get them viewed by Government buyers. The registration of horses will be dealt with by this staff, whose business it will be

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to examine the horses for suitability and soundness, to register them in such a way as to render them distinguishable, and to keep the registers so as to obviate delay when the transmission of horses to selected centres or ports of embarkation is necessary. My Lords, this is an experiment, I admit. The voluntary system is objected to by some whose opinion is of the highest value; but I am hopeful that competition among owners of horses will produce the desired result. The voluntary system has raised a magnificent army of citizen soldiers; I hope it may answer as regards a supply of horses; and but a modicum of the success that has attended the first will be sufficient to remove any anxiety as to the Army being sufficiently horsed when the crisis comes.

COAL MINES, & c. REGULATION BILL.
(The Viscount Gross.
(NO. 251.) COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to order).
Clauses 1 to 9 severally agreed to.
Clause 10 (Payment of school fees out of wages).
On the Motion of The Viscount CROSS, the following Amendments made:—In page 4, line 7, after ("boy") insert ("or girl"); line 8, after ("in") insert ("or in connection with"), and after ("boy") insert ("or girl"); line 9, after ("boy") insert ("or girl"); line 10, after ("boy") insert ("or girl"); line 13, after ("boy") insert ("or girl"); and in line 14, after (''boy") insert ("or girl").
Clause, as amended,agreed to.
Clause 11 agreed to.
Clause 12 (Payment of persons employed in mines by weight).
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS), in moving an Amendment authorizing the Secretary of State, in the case of mines employing not more than "30" persons underground, to provide, if considered expedient, the payment of such persons by any method other than that in the Act, said, that the effect of the Amendment would be to bring under the regulations of the clause a number of mines other than coal mines. The question of the thin seam mines was involved. According to the existing law, the Secretary
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of State had the power of exemption in all thin seam mines; but according to the Bill, as presented to their Lordships, that power of exemption was taken away, except in cases where only 20 persons were employed underground. The reason of the limit was this. In the cases where minerals had to be weighed it was necessary that weighing machines should be provided at the top of the pit, in order that the material should be properly weighed and the machine properly inspected. But it had always been thought that in the case of small mines this would put the owner to great expense; and therefore the object of the clause, as it at present stood, was to allow the Secretary of State to make an exemption in the case of small mines where 20 persons were employed underground. The Amendment he proposed would meet the objections of some mine owners by raising the number from 20 to 30. The noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Bramwell) had asked, on a previous occasion, the reason of the provision. He (Viscount Cross) understood that since 1867 the miners, as a body, had thought that any other way of measuring the amount of their work was rough and uncertain. There was a great deal of dissatisfaction among the miners, owing to this uncertainty of receiving a due amount of pay for the due amount of work performed. It was, therefore, thought that it would be advisable to institute a uniform practice, so far as it could be attained. The noble and learned Lord asked if the miners in a particular mine were agreed, and the" Secretary of State was agreed, why not leave them alone? The question was difficult to answer; but the only reply he could give was that the miners, as a body, decidedly objected to the discretion of the Secretary of State.
Amendment moved, in page 5, line 30, to leave out ("twenty") and insert ("thirty").— (The Viscount Cross.)
LORD BRAMWELLsaid, if the noble Viscount was satisfied, it was no use for him (Lord Bramwell) to object; but he must say that it seemed to him that the proposition was a most unreasonable one.
VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, he would undertake that before the third reading he would consider what further could

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be done in the matter of relaxations to meet the case of quarries where wages were paid at present by measure.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended,agreed to.
Clauses 13 to 37, inclusive, severally agreed to, with an Amendment.
Clause 38 (Plan of abandoned mine or seam to be sent to the Secretary of State).
On the Motion of The Viscount CROSS, the following Amendment made:—In page 20, line 4, to leave out from ("than") to ("inch") in line 5, and insert ("that of the ordnance survey of twenty-five inches to the mile ").
Clause, as amended,agreed to.
Clauses 39 to 48, inclusive, severally agreed to, with Amendments.
Clause 49 (General rules).
On the Motion of The Viscount CROSS, the following Amendment made: —In page 28, line 30, leave out ("mines") and insert ("mine").
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)read a telegram from the solicitor of the Associated Colliery Owners of Monmouthshire and South Wales, representing the injuries that must arise to all colliery owners and working miners by an Amendment carried without previous Notice in the other House on the Report stage of the Bill. The Amendment was to Clause 49, General Rule 26, requiring an automatic contrivance to prevent over-winding when the men are being raised out of a mine, or, alternatively, that the speed should not exceed three miles an hour. There was, the writer said, no safe and reliable automatic contrivance to prevent over-winding. Their use was full of peril, and their presence led to carelessness by the engineman, who left the machinery to its own operation. Hence, such an apparatus would cause more accidents than it would prevent. On the other hand, the telegram went on to represent the three miles an hour alternative was absolutely impracticable; it could never be observed. The working men themselves would resist it, because, under it, in a colliery, say, only 500 yards deep, and employing only 500 men, more than six hours would be required to clear the mine, for, as a rule, only 80 men could be lifted in an hour; and, consequently, it would take 12½ hours to lift 1,000.
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The hope was expressed that the provision would be expunged, or that it would be so qualified as to give a dispensing power to the Home Secretary. The telegram was signed by "W. Simmons, Merthyr Tydvil," who, the noble and learned Lord said, was not only a person very familiar with collieries, but had been consulted by colliery owners and working miners for many years in that district.
VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, the provision referred to in the telegram was Clause 26 of the General Rules, and he would be prepared to deal with it in its order.
Amendment moved, in page 30, line 29, to leave out from (" inflammable ") to ("'lamps ") inclusive, in line 30.—(The Viscount Cross.)
Amendment agreed to.
On the Motion of The Viscount CROSS, the following Amendments made:—In rule 12, page 32, line 41, leave out ("rule") and insert ("Act"); page 33, line 5, leave out (" of subhead (g)") and insert ("in this Act relating to ventilating districts"); line 10, leave out ('' subsection'') and insert ('' subhead "); and in page 33, line 38, leave out ("in coal mines"). In rule 24, page 34, leave out from (" of age ") in line 34 to ("shall") in line 35; and in page 35, leave out line 8.
Rule 26.
VISCOUNT CROSS, referring to the matter brought forward by his noble and learned Friend (Lord Halsbury), said, he quite agreed that it was clearly absolutely impossible that the stages should only go at the rate of three miles an hour. Therefore he would move for the purpose of meeting the objection, the rule being, as it stood, incomplete owing to an oversight in the House of Commons, to add words providing that the cage when raising the men should not be wound up at a speed exceeding three miles an hour, after the cage has reached a point in the shaft to be fixed by the special rules.
Amendment moved, in page 35, line 22, after ("hour") insert ("after the cage has reached a point in the shaft to be fixed by the special rules.")—(The Viscount Cross.)
Amendment agreed to.
On the Motion of The Viscount CROSS, the following Amendments made: —In rule 38, page 36,line 36, leave out ("or

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have been"); rule 39, page 37, line 13, leave out (" a ").
Clause, as amended,agreed to.
On the Motion of The Viscount Cross, the following Amendments made: —In Clause 59, page 41, line 11, after ("agent") leave out ("or") and after ("manager") insert ("or under-manager"); line 16, after ("agent") leave out ("or ") and after (" manager") insert (" or under-manager "); Clause 64, page 42, line 25, after ("coal") insert ("or ironstone "); Clause 76, page 46, line 30, leave out ("chairman of quarter sessions") and insert ("police magistrate"); line 36, leave out subsection (10.) and substitute—
" (10.) Sections forty-one and sixteen of the Public Health (Scotland) Act, 1867, shall respectively he substituted for sections thirty-eight and ninety-one of the Public Health Act, 1875."
Clause 77, page 47, line 16, leave out (" subhead (c.) ") and substitute—
" (c.) Sections forty-eight and one hundred and seven of the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878, shall respectively be substituted for sec. tion8 thirty-eight and ninety-one of the Public Health Act, 1875; "
line 19, after ("expression") insert ("police or"); Clause 82, page 48, line 37, after ("mine") insert as a separate sub-head—
" (c.) Prevent a competent male person above the age of eighteen years who before the commencement of this Act is lawfully employed in "working the machinery used for lowering and raising persons in a mine from continuing to he so employed; "
line 41, after ("girl") insert (" or competent male person "); Schedule 3, page 51, after line 13 insert in a separate line (" Name of under-manager "); Schedule 3, page 51, line 39, after (" drawn ") insert as follows: —

—

Number of Days on which was drawn

1. Coal.

2. Ironstone.

January

February

March

April

May

June

July

August

September

October

November

December

The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow, and Standing Order No. XXXV. to be considered in order to its being dispensed with.

LABOURERS' ALLOTMENTS BILL.
(The Viscount Cross.)
(NO. 252.) COMMITTEE.
Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.
Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee upon the said Bill."—(The Viscount Cross.)
THE EARL OF FEVESHAMsaid, that, while he fully appreciated the difficulties of Her Majesty's Government in dealing with the course of Public Business in the other House of Parliament, at the same time he thought a measure of this importance, dealing, as it did, with the proprietary rights of the landowners of this country, should have been considered by their Lordships at a time when it could receive the full attention of the House. He regretted that the Bill had been put down for Committee at such short Notice, as he knew that there were several noble Lords who had wished to discuss the question. With regard to the general object of the measure, he had always expressed his opinion in favour of increasing the number of allotments available for the working classes. He objected, however, to the compulsory powers given by the Bill. They had had no evidence before them which would show that there was any difficulty in obtaining allotments; and he thought that before they adopted the principle of the compulsory taking of land contained in the Bill they might have had some further inquiry. It would have been far batter to have rested the Bill upon the readiness of landowners to give allotments, rather than by this compulsory clause to rob them of any credit in the matter. Before adopting that principle they should have tried the voluntary system, and if they had found it fail they could have gone back on to compulsion. He denied, however, that the voluntary system would have failed. He regretted that Her Majesty's Government, whether from Parliamentary or electoral exigencies, had gone as far as they had done in this Bill. He did not propose, however, to offer opposition to the passage of the measure,

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or to detain their Lordships by moving Amendments.
LORD MONK BRETTONsaid, that if the Bill had come before their Lordships at an earlier period of the Session, he might have felt disposed to move certain Amendments. But he did not disapprove of the Bill as a whole, and he cordially-approved of its object. He should be sorry to see it delayed or endangered, and he therefore hoped that it would pass through the House without Amendment, or, at all events, without any Amendment of a contentious character. He thought the Government, especially the President of the Local Government Board, had dealt very fairly and reasonably with the subject in the circumstances in which they had been placed towards the end of the Session.
THE EARL OF DUNRAVENsaid, he did not consider the Bill altogether incapable of amendment. If there were time and opportunity it would be possible to make suggestions perhaps of some value in the way of simplifying the methods and machinery of the measure; but it would be most unfortunate at that period of the Session if any Amendment were made which would tend to delay, and possibly to defeat, the Bill. He desired, to know whether Clause 12 of the Bill would permit of the allotment managers turning part of the common land into meadow for the purposes of securing hay. There was some doubt on this point. He must be allowed to express his personal satisfaction, and he also believed that of the great majority of their Lordships, at Her Majesty's Government having been able to deal with the allotments' question that Session; and in spite of the somewhat ominous circumstance that his noble and learned Friend (Lord Bramwell) was in favour of the Bill, he thought it would be found to work well.
THE EARL OF WINCHILSEAsaid, he also approved of the Bill; but he desired to move an. Amendment to Clause 12 if, in its present shape, it would not permit the allotment managers to set apart common land for hay, as it would be of little use supplying pasturage for labourers' cows, if moans were not also taken to supply them with hay during winter. He should like to know whether the point had been considered by the Government.
LORD BALFOURsaid, the point had been considered, and the Local Government Board were advised that there was nothing in the clause to prevent the allotment managers making provision for the supply of hay, as suggested.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ONSLOW)said, that he, too, had been assured by a high authority that the clause in its present form would have the effect desired.
VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, he could not allow the debate to close without expressing his acknowledgments to the House for the way in which the Bill had been received.
Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly; Bill reported without Amendment, and to be read 3a To-morrow.

TRAMWAYS (WAR DEPARTMENT) BILL.
(The Lord Harris.)
(NO. 255.) COMMITTEE.
House in Committee (according to order).
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Lord HARRIS)said, the object of the Bill was to enable the Secretary of State to acquire, in a more simple form than he now could, such land as was necessary for military tramways for the defence of the country. The existing powers of the Secretary of State were defined by the Defence Act of 1842; but in effect it had been found an exceptionally cumbrous Act to work. There were at present several instances — at Stromal Common in Yorkshire, and Chatham in the South of England— where the War Department wished, and where it was actually necessary for the defence of the country, that tramways should be made for military purposes; but it so happened that though running for their greater length over War Department lands there were small plots intervening, and rights of way crossing the proposed line. The Act now introduced would render it a more simple process for the Secretary of State to acquire these plots, and to run round, or cross the highways; while at the same time the public would be protected in the first instance by a Petition to the Board of Trade against the Provisional Order, and ultimately, if no agreement could be come to between

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the parties, to Parliament before the Provisional Order could be confirmed.
Bill reported without Amendment, and to be read 3a To-morrow.

WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE BILL.
MOTION.
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Duke of BUCKINGHAM and CHANDOS), in rising to move that that "Bill be not further inserted in the list of Bills in progress," said, that he made the Motion, not with any desire to oppose the Bill, or to deprive the noble Lord who introduced it (Lord Denman) of any legitimate opportunity of bringing the question forward, but solely with the view of preserving the regularity of proceedings in their Lordships' House. Formerly, a Bill could be entered in the Minutes as rejected; but for the last half century the practice had prevailed of moving that a measure be postponed for three, or six months. That was considered a more courteous way of dismissing a Bill from consideration than a direct Motion for its rejection. It was, in fact, laid down by the authorities that this postponement of a measure was equivalent to its rejection, and hitherto such postponement had invariably been viewed as the dismissal of the measure from further consideration for the Session. Now, the Women's Suffrage Bill was rejected in the early part of the Session in the usual way — namely, by a Motion postponing it for six months. That period of time having elapsed, and the Session not having ended, the Bill was again put down for second reading; but their Lordships, having regard to the circumstances of the ease, determined that the Question should not be put. If Bills which had been rejected by Motions of postponement were to be resuscitated, as that Bill had been, in the same Session of Parliament, it would be necessary to consider whether the practice of the House ought not to be changed. But as the practice that a postponement for three or six months was equivalent to the rejection of a measure had been universally recognized up to the present, it would, he thought, be well to adhere to the practice as it existed now. The special difficulty in connection with the Bill before their Lordships would be got rid of by the Resolution which he had
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placed on the Paper, and which he now begged to move.
Moved, "That the Bill be not further inserted in the list of Bills in progress printed with the Minutes of this House." —(The Duke of Buckingham and Chandos.)
LORD DENMANsaid, he must be allowed to express his regret that the Bill could not be favourably entertained. There had been no real objection offered to the principle of the Bill when he introduced it, and there was no valid reason for not proceeding with it. The Prime Minister simply asked their Lordships to postpone it entirely out of deference to the other House, which had a Women's Suffrage Bill before it. He considered that the municipal franchise having been given to women in Ireland, it followed that the Parliamentary franchise ought to be given to women possessing the necessary legal qualifications. He was an old man, and was more indebted than most people to sensible women, and he should like to know that after his death his widow would have a vote. He hoped he would be allowed to put the Bill down for a second reading to-morrow.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURT)said, he did not think that the Bill was likely to engage much of their attention during the remainder of the Session; but the question of precedent in connection with procedure in such cases might be important hero-after. He could not help thinking that the noble Lord (Lord Denman) had successfully disposed of his own argument. He said that it was a lunar month, and that the month brought the date on a Sunday. If that were so, the Bill was postponed to a period when the House was not sitting, and it fell under the recognized practice when the Session had expired. He believed that the calendar month was the proper construction of the month in that House; but if it was a lunar month, the noble Lord did not on the proper day move the Bill when it came on, therefore it was a lapsed Order, and the Bill, according to Parliamentary practice, ought not to be proceeded with. If, under such circumstances, the Bill was to be revived, it must be done by a Motion made in the House, and could not be done by a noble Lord going to the Clerk at the Table and making a private communi-

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cation. He thought that if their Lordships assented to the noble Lord's proposal they would establish a precedent of the greatest possible inconvenience. If Bills disposed of as this had been disposed of were to be revived, and the understanding which now existed was departed from, it would be necessary to move the rejection of Bills, and this would be obviously inconvenient. The old form of moving the rejection of a Bill, of course, killed it for ever; but he rather thought the more courteous form of postponement for six months was adopted on the understanding that the Bill should not be brought forward again in the same Session. As to the Motion of the noble Duke the Chairman of Committees, he was not sure that that was strictly in order; but he hoped their Lordships would not be troubled again by questions of this kind.
Motion agreed to.

GOVERNMENT OF MALTA.
QUESTION.
EARL DE LA WARRasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether it was convenient to give further information with regard to the suggestions of the Maltese people on the subject of Constitutional changes in the Local Government; whether they would be favourably considered; and what course Her Majesty's Government proposed to take in respect of them?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ONSLOW), in reply, said, the Government had received the draft of a project for the formation of a Constitution, drawn up by a Committee appointed by an assembly of citizens in Malta. In forwarding the draft scheme, the Governor desired to inform the Secretary of State of the spirit of moderation which had been exhibited by the gentleman who had had a conference with him, and the spirit so evinced enabled the Governor to believe that a scheme for the government of the island might be satisfactory to the inhabitants. In reply to this despatch, the Secretary of State informed the Governor that he approved his action, in the matter, and was gratified by the conciliatory tone in which the communications between himself and the Committee had been conducted. The Secretary of State added
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that he desired to arrive at a conclusion to meet the wishes of the people of Malta, and that the present proposals would have his most careful consideration. At present the Lieutenant Governor was engaged in taking an active part in the measures to arrest the spread of the infection of cholera which unfortunately prevailed in the island, and, under the circumstances, the Government had not thought is advisable to ask him to come to this country to confer with them upon the subject of the proposed Constitutional changes; but it was hoped that in a little time, probably next month, or at all events by the middle of November, cholera would so far abate as to enable the Lieutenant Governor to leave, and come home to confer with the Government as to the draft Constitution. Speaking generally, he might say that the suggestions appeared to be such as the Government might be able to accept, and would receive consideration in the Recess. The views of the Government would be published in Malta in time for an expression of opinion to be given before the next Elections took place about next December.

AGRICULTURAL DEPRESSION.

  PETITION PRESENTED.
  EARL DE LA WARRpresented a Petition from members of the Denbighshire and Flintshire Agricultural Society. The Petition pointed out the grievous state in which the agricultural interests of this country were placed by the very low prices that had prevailed for some time. Should that condition continue, a very large proportion of the land of Great Britain would be thrown, out of cultivation. The Petitioners also called attention to the fact that 50 per cent of the food of the people was derived from foreign sources, and that in the event of war with any of the Great Naval Powers the food of this country might be raised to famine prices. In conclusion, they prayed that their Lordships would give their serious attention to the condition of agricultural affairs, and expressed a hope that steps would be taken to avert the danger which had been pointed out of land going out of cultivation. He wished to express his entire concurrence with the words of the Petition, and to ask their Lordships'

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  attention to the reasonable views it expressed. He would remind their Lordships that no measure had been passed in the course of this protracted Session with the view of giving any relief to agriculture. He must also add that no attempt, so far as he was aware, had been made by Her Majesty's Government, or by Parliament, to solve the difficult question of foreign and Colonial competition, which was striking a deadly Wow at the interests of agriculture. On the contrary, early in the Session the noble Marquess at the head of the Government (the Marquess of Salisbury) stated that he did not entertain any hope of being able to cope with an evil of this kind by any form of legislation. He (Earl De la Warr) ventured to think that the view which was taken in this Petition was in no way akin to the view expressed by the noble Marquess. The Petitioners said, that if it was inadvisable to impose an import duty on foreign produce, it was possible to relieve the agricultural interest of many rates and taxes that now pressed so heavily upon that industry. This surely fell within the scope of legislative action. Notwithstanding the discouraging declaration of Her Majesty's Government, he thought there were unmistakable signs that the country was awakening to the necessity of something being done, and that promptly, to relieve the agricultural interest by a reform of the fiscal system and the incidence of taxation, and by a readjustment of foreign and Colonial tariffs as far as it was possible.
  Petition read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a Quarter past Four o'clock.