Lords Sitting of 17 March 1887

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Pharmacy Acts Amendment (28).
Committee—Report—Incumbents of Benefices Loans Extension Act (1886) Amendment* (39).
Report—Glebe Lands (41–45).
Third Reading—Lunacy Acts Amendment (40); Justices' Jurisdiction (24), and passed.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL—Third Reading—Local Government (Ireland) (Carrick-on-Suir) * (30), and passed.

PHARMACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Earl Milltown.)
(No. 28.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF MILLTOWN, in rising to move that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that its object, though extremely simple, was one of considerable importance to the general public, It was framed with the object of enabling the Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain, which was formed in 1841, and received a Charter in 1843, to make adequate regulations for the education and curriculum to be followed by those who were enrolled among its members. Its purpose was to protect the public against the admission to practice of persons without the necessary training. Hitherto there had been great difficulties in the way of the Society dealing with that matter, the importance of which it was impossible to over-estimate, because the members had the exclusive right of dispensing and selling poisons. By the Pharmacy Act of 1852, it was made penal for any unauthorized person to assume the title of pharmaceutical chemist, and by the Act of 1868 it was made unlawful for any person not duly qualified to sell or dispense poisons, or to assume the title of chemist and druggist. Certain poisons of a particu-
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larly dangerous character, the sale of which was placed under special restrictions, were contained in a Schedule to the Act. That Schedule could be added to by the Society, from time to time, with the consent of the Privy Council. The Society consisted of members, associates, and registered apprentices, each of whom had a separate qualification, and passed a separate examination. It was intended that the apprentices should pass a preliminary examination before admission, and after a three years' apprenticeship should pass a qualifying examination; but it had been found that, owing to the development of the extensive system of cramming that now prevailed, the gentlemen who were known as apprentices trusted entirely to passing the qualified examination, and did not devote themselves to acquiring the practical knowledge absolutely essential during apprenticeship, although all operations in pharmacy required to be maturely practised for the safety of the public. By the 6th clause of the Bill of 1868, the Examiners were bound to pass those who answered their questions, which might be answered by those who had no skilful training at all. The Society accordingly framed bye-laws for remedying those defects and establishing a sufficient curriculum of study; but the Privy Council, to whom all bye-laws had to be submitted, felt unable to confirm them, as it considered that the Statutes did not authorize the Society to frame them; and this Bill, which had the unanimous assent of the Council of the Pharmaceutical Society, had been introduced into their Lordships' House to remedy this defect. Subject to a slight amendment in the phraseology of one of the clauses, his noble Friend the Lord President of the Council (Viscount Cranbrook) did not object to the Bill. He might add that the 2nd clause gave this Society power to dispense with the three years' curriculum in the case of those who had obtained technical skill in any part of the United Kingdom or the Colonies, but not with the qualifying examination. In moving the second reading, he might say, in conclusion, that the Bill did not apply to Ireland, as the Irish Pharmacy Act of 1875 did not require similar amendment. The Bill would have the effect of making the practice in the matter uniform throughout the Kingdom.
Moved. "That the Bill be now read 2a"—(The Earl of Mtlltown.)
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

LUNACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Earl Chancellor.)
LUNACY ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.

  (No. 40.) THIRD READING.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY), in moving that the Bill be now read the third time, said, that a question had been raised by the noble and learned Earl (the Earl of Selborne) on the new clause which he (Lord Halsbury) proposed to move to add to the Bill. The now clause provided that when a person had been received as a lunatic in any asylum under an order of a Judge of County Courts, magistrate, or justice, without having been previously seen or examined by him, he should have a right to be taken before a Judge, magistrate, or justice. It was provided by the clause that this jurisdiction should be exercised by "any Judge, magistrate, or justice other than" the one who made the order; and his noble and learned Friend desired that the same magistrate who made the order should have the personal interview with the alleged lunatic. If that were done, it would have the effect of making the magistrate practically hear an appeal from his own order. He could not take the responsibility of advising the House to adopt such an Amendment, and would leave the decision in their Lordships' hands.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 3a"—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 3a accordingly.
  On Question, "That the Bill do pass?"
  Amendment moved, after Clause 4 add a new clause:—
  "(1.) When a person has been received as a lunatic in an asylum hospital or licensed house or as a single patient, under an order of a judge of county courts magistrate or justice, without having been personally seen or examined by such judge magistrate or justice, the person shall (subject as herein-after mentioned) have the right to be taken before or visited by a judge magistrate or justice, other than the judge magistrate or justice under whose order he has been received, except so far as the medical superintendent of the asylum or hospital, or the
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  medical proprietor or attendant of the house, or he medical attendant of the single patient, within twenty-four hours after his reception, in a certificate signed and sent to the Commissioners (in the Form 3a in the First Schedule), shall state that the exercise of such right would be prejudicial to the person so received.
  "(2.) Subject to any such certificate, the superintendent or proprietor of the asylum hospital or house, or the person having charge of the single patient, shall, within twenty-four hours after reception, give to the person so received as a lunatic a notice in writing in the Form 3b. in the First Schedule, and shall ascertain whether he desires to exercise such right as aforesaid; and if he, within seven days after his reception, expresses his desire to exercise the right, such superintendent proprietor or person shall procure him to sign a notice in the Form 3c. in the First Schedule, and shall forthwith transmit it by post in a registered letter to the judge magistrate or justice, who shall thereupon arrange, as soon as conveniently may be, either to visit the person giving the notice or to have him brought before him by the superintendent proprietor or person as the judge magistrate or justice may think lit. After any such personal interview the judge magistrate or justice shall send by post to the Commissioners a report thereupon, and the Commissioners shall take such steps as may be necessary to give effect to the report.
  "(3.) For the purposes of this section the notice shall be sent to and the jurisdiction exercised by any judge magistrate or justice, other than the judge magistrate or justice who made the order for reception, then present within the petty sessional division or borough where the person received is, who shall be in such notice named by the person desiring the interview, or if no judge magistrate or justice is so named, any justice who shall, under arrangements which shall be for that purpose from time to time made amongst themselves by the justices in such division or borough, undertake such jurisdiction: and the notice shall, in such last mentioned case, be sent to the justices clerk of such division or borough for transmission to the justice.
  "(4) The judge magistrate or justice shall be entitled, if he desires so to do, before making his report, to see the medical certificates and any other documents upon the consideration of which the order for reception was made.
  "(5.) If any superintendent of an asylum or hospital, or any superintendent or proprietor of a licensed house, or any person having charge of a single patient, omits to perform any duty imposed upon him by this section, he shall be guilty of a misdemeanour."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  THE EARL OF SELBORNEsaid, he did not see why the magistrate making the order should necessarily be prejudiced against the patient. He would not very willingly propose an Amendment to the clause, because they were, all of one mind as to the general object and scope of Bill. He had a very strong opinion, however, that

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  the clause as it stood would have an effect which they did not intend it to have, and he would therefore move to amend the first sub-section by leaving out the words "any judge, magistrate, or justice other than. "He proposed to insert instead thereof, a provision that the examination of a lunatic should be made by the Judge, magistrate, or justice who made the order for reception—
  "If the person so received as a lunatic is still within the county or place in which such Judge, magistrate, or justice has jurisdiction, and in any other ease by any Judge, magistrate, or Justice."
  His object was that the magistrate who had made an order for detention should be the magistrate to personally see and examine the alleged lunatic, for having had all the materials before him, he was better able to form an opinion than any magistrate would be who knew nothing of the case. There was no reason for supposing that the magistrate who made the order would be prejudiced in the matter, whereas to call in another magistrate would be making him sit as a court of appeal from the first.
  Amendment moved,
  In the new clause to be added after Clause 4. by the Lord Chancellor, subsection (3.), lines 2 and 3, leave out ("any judge, magistrate, or justice, other than"); line 4, after ("reception") insert ("if the person so received as a lunatic is still within the county or place in which such judge, magistrate, or justice has jurisdiction; and in any other case by any judge, magistrate, or justice.")—(The Earl of Selborne.)
  On Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause?" Their Lordships divided:—Contents 40; Not-Contents 22: Majority 18.

  CONTENTS.

  Halsbury, L. (L. Chancellor.)

  Milltown, E.

  Northesk, E.

  Cranbrook, V. (L. President.)

  Onslow, E.

  Stanhope, E.

  Cadogan, E. (L. Privy Seal.)

  Wharancliffe, E.

  Yarborough, E.

  Mount Edgcumbe, E. (L. Steward.)

  Cross, V.

  Sidmouth, V.

  Lathom, E. (L. Chamberlain.)

  Ashbourne, L.

  Clarendon, E.

  Balfour of Burley, L.

  Feversham, E.

  Bateman, L.

  Harrowby, E.

  Brabourne, L.

  Ilchester, E.

  Bramwell, L.

  Jeresy, E.

  Brodrick, L. (V. Midleton.)

  Leven and Melville, E.

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  Chelmsford. L.

  Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.) [Teller.]

  Colchester, L.

  Colville of Culross, L.

  Norton, L.

  Ellenborough, L.

  Poltimore, L.

  Elphinstone, L.

  Saltersford, L. (E. Courtown.)

  Fermanagh, L. (E. Erne.)

  Shute, L. (V. Barrington.)

  Foxford, L; (E. Limerick) [Teller.]

  Stanley of Alderley, L.

  Kenry, L. (E. Dunraven and Mount-Earl)

  Wigan, L. (E. Crawford and Balcarres.)

  NOT-CONTENTS.

  Bedford, D.

  Foley, L.

  Grimthorpe, L.

  Ripon, M.

  Herschell, L.

  Kensington, L.

  Camperdown, E.

  Lingen, L.

  Ducie, E.

  Lyttleton, L.

  Granville, E.

  Romilly, L.

  Innes, E. (D. Roxburghe.)

  Stratheden and Campbell, L.

  Kimberley, E.

  Sudley, L. (E. Arran.)

  Selborne, E. [Teller.]

  Suffolk and Berkshire, E.

  Thring, L. [Teller.]

  Thurlow, L.

  Tweeddale, L. (M. Tweeddale.)

  Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kincardine.)

  Amendment disagreed to.
  LORD HERSCHELLsaid, he thought it objectionable and very prejudicial to the lunatic himself, that he should be enabled to name the particular Judge or magistrate before whom he should be taken, as it would give rise occasionally to considerable inconvenience. He, therefore, proposed to amend the clause so as to dispense with the necessity of the lunatic naming the particular magistrate who should visit him, and enabling the justices of the borough or county to choose, from time to time, the magistrate or justice who should investigate the case of the alleged lunatic.
  LORD HALSBURY,said he had no objection to the proposed Amendment.1
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to, and ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Further Amendments made.
  Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.

GLEBE LANDS BILL.—(No. 41.)
(The Viscount Cross.)
GLEBE LANDS BILL.—(No. 41.)

  REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  Clause 3 (Sale of glebe by or with approval of Lord Chancellor).
  LORD NORTON LORD NORTON moved, as an Amendment, to insert, in line 21, before "bene-

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  fit" the words "permanent and prospective," and, in the same line, after "benefice" to insert "and without unfair prejudice to adjoining property." He remarked that, in Committee, it was moved that no globe should be sold without the Bishop's and patron's consent. The object of the Bill seemed to be to prevent the Bishops in the Ecclesiastical Commission vetoing all sales of Church real property. Such an inclination seemed to be erroneous, as late legislation had made real property no securer than Consols; and to prevent all sales of glebe would be a senseless loss, especially of minerals, which the clergy could not work at all, or interlying pieces of land they could not improve. On the other hand, the Land Commissioners might fool themselves unauthorized to refuse a poor incumbent's pressing application for premature sale for immediate benefit to the prospective detriment of the living. The noble Viscount in charge of the Bill had suggested in the debate the words "permanent benefit." He proposed to take the noble Viscount's words and to add "prospective," so that the Land Commission might feel it their duty to take probable improvement of value into their consideration in consenting to a sale. The other insertion would meet such a case as lately occurred, where glebe lying in the middle of the patron's park, the incumbent wanted to sell for villa building, the site being very attractive to a neighbouring manufacturing town. The patron, like most landlords, was too poor to outbid the market; but, fortunately, an exchange of land removed the difficulty. But it ought to be within the Land Commission's power, as the Act of Vict. I put it in that of the Ecclesiastical Commission, to save adjoining property from such injury by exchanges or other arrangements. Unfair advantage should not be taken of the patron's bequest to the Church.
  Amendment moved,
  In page 1, line 21, after the second ("the") insert ("permanent and prospective"); and after ("benefice") insert ("and without unfair prejudice to adjoining property").—(The Lord Norton.)
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Viscount CROSS)said, he would agree to the insertion of the word "permanent," as he had no objection to making it clear that the sale was to be
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  for the benefit of the benefice, and not for the immediate advantage of the incumbent. He could not, however, seeing that it might be looked upon as an Instruction to the Land Commissioners to look to prospective improvements by building or otherwise, assent to the insertion of the word "prospective," which, it seemed to him, would open up too remote contingencies, and, if the noble Lord would exclude it, he would not oppose the Amendment.
  LORD NORTONsaid, he feared he was unable to do otherwise than accept the suggested limitation of this Amendment.
  Amendment amended, and, as amended, agreed to.
  Amendment moved,
  In page 2, line 8, at the end of sub-section (2.) insert ("and if such objection be not removed the matter shall be referred to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, whose decision shall be final").—(The Earl of Feversham.)
  VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, that during the progress of the Bill in Committee, it was understood that the Land Commissioners were to be the arbitrators, and if the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were substituted, the title of the Bill might as well be altered, for instead of being one to facilitate the sale of glebe, it would rather be one to impede the sale. He regretted to oppose anything proposed by the noble Earl, but he could not accept the Amendment.
  Amendment negatived.
  On the Motion of The Viscount CROSS, Amendment made, in page 2, line 7, by leaving out ("and patron"), and inserting ("or patron, as the case may be").
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 5 (Application and investment of purchase money).
  On the Motion of The Viscount CROSS, the following Amendment made:—At end of clause insert—
  "Any land purchased with money arising from a sale under this Act of the glebe land of any benefice shall be conveyed to the incumbent of that benefice, and shall be held by the incumbent for the time being as part of the glebe of the benefice, and the income arising from the land shall be paid or applied as the income of the land sold would have been payable or applicable if the sale had not taken place."
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 6 (Restriction as to sales).
  On the Motion of The Viscount CROSS, the following Amendment made:—In page 4, line 16, after ("Act"), insert—
  ("but until such sum is fully recouped, nothing in this section shall discharge the incumbent from his liability to make good the said dilapidations.")
  On the Motion of The Viscount CROSS. THE following Amendment made:—Leave out Clause 7, and insert the following clause:—
  (Provision where land is subject to mortgage or other debt.)
  "(1.) Where any glebe land sold under this Act, or the benefice to which it belongs, is subject to any mortgage or other debt, the land shall be sold free from such mortgage or debt, but such mortgage or debt, if not discharged, shall attach to the purchase money of the land and to any securities or land in or in connexion with which such purchase money is invested, and the mortgagee or creditor shall have the like remedies as nearly as may be in relation to such purchase money, securities, and land as he would have had if the land had not been sold.
  "(2.) The prescribed notice of the proposal to sell any such glebe land shall be given to the mortgagee or creditor, and the mortgagee or creditor may, within the prescribed time after such notice, object to the sale on the ground that his security will be damnified by the sale, and before the Land Commissioners approve the sale or sell, they shall be satisfied that either such an objection to the sale has not been made by the mortgagee or creditor, or if an objection has been made that the mortgagee or creditor will not be damnified by the sale, and the Land Commissioners may, if it seems to them necessary, make provision either for securing the rights of the mortgagee or creditor, or for the discharge of the mortgage or other debt, so that nothing is done which will prejudice the future interest of the benefice.
  "(3.) The Land Commissioners may require the mortgagee or creditor to accept payment of the principal and interest due, together with such additional sum (if any) as seems necessary in order to dispense with any notice which would otherwise be required for such payment."
  VISCOUNT CROSSsaid, it had been represented to him that there were owners of globes who would wish to sell portions of them for the purpose of discharging debt incurred by assigning part of the income to new benefices in the original parish. The Rector of Wigan was in this position, having endowed new livings with part of his glebe. To meet such cases he would propose the insertion of a new clause.
  Moved, after Clause 7, insert the following clause:—
  (Provision as to annual charges on benefice.)
  " Where any glebe land sold under this Act, or the benefice to which it belongs, or any part of the endowment of such benefice, is subject to a permanent annual charge in favour of the incumbent of any other benefice, the land shall be sold free from such annual charge, but the annual charge shall attach to the purchase money, and to any securities or land in or in connexion with which such purchase money is invested, and the authority holding the securities in which such purchase money is invested, may, if they think fit, sot apart an adequate portion of such securities for the purpose of meeting such charge, or any part thereof, and shall thereupon discharge the said benefice and the endowment thereof from the liability to the annual charge or the said part thereof, and the securities so set apart shall be placed to a. separate account or otherwise set apart in such manner as the said authority may direct."—(The Viscount Cross.)
  Clause agreed to.
  Bill to be read 3a on Tuesday next; and to be printed as amended. (No. 45.)

IRELAND (CITY OF LIMERICK)—THE ASYLUM RATE.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN, in moving for the Correspondence inspecting the Limerick County Asylum rate, said, he should like to know what had recently transpired. He should be satisfied if he were informed the rate was levied, or about to be.
  Moved for—
  "Correspondence between the Irish Government and the May or of Limerick with reference to the rate ordered to be levied upon the City of Limerick for the maintenance of lunatics in the city and county asylum."—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE)said, there would be no objection to give the Correspondence; and he might say that, when the noble Earl read it, he would find the attitude of the Government towards the Corporation of Limerick very clearly defined. The Government had required that the money should be paid, and the Corporation had admitted their liability.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he should like to know whether the Mayor of Limerick had announced the intention of the Corporation to levy a rate?
  LORD ASHBOURNEsaid, he did not know the exact form; but the liability had been acknowledged by the Corporation.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: I am afraid that is a rather different matter.
  Motion agreed to; Correspondence ordered to be laid before the House.

  LORD ASHBOURNE AND HOME RULE.—OBSERVATIONS.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): My Lords, I should like to take this opportunity of saying one sentence in reference to a personal matter. My attention has been called, within the last hour before the meeting of the House, to a paragraph in The Daily News this morning, which, under the heading of "Lord Ashbourne and Home Rule," states as follows:—
  "The story goes that in a copy of Thom's Directory for 1885, which has come in due course out of his Lordship's residence, there has been discovered a memorandum of an Irish Home Parliament at least as extensive as Mr. Gladstone's, in the characteristic handwriting of his Lordship; but whether it is tentative or final, whether it correctly expresses Lord Ashbourne's sentiments, or whether it was written to order, there are no means of testing. After some curious adventures, the document, it is said, was purchased at a considerable price by a gentleman of the same politics and profession as his Lordship, and lithographed copies have passed into extensive, though private, circulation."
  My Lords, the first intimation I ever received of this romantic episode in my life was when I read that paragraph. There is not even the vestige of the shadow of a foundation for the story; and I have only to say that I shall be very much obliged to "the gentleman of the same politics and profession as myself" if he will only give me a private view of one of the "lithographed copies."
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.