HL Deb 26 July 1887 vol 318 cc8-9

Order of the Day for the Third Reading, read.

On Question, "That the Bill do pass?"

Moved, to leave out Clause 5, and instead thereof to insert the following Clause:—"In making any valuation under the Copyhold Acts the valuers shall take into account and make due allowance for all customs of the manor, fines, heriots, reliefs, quit rents, chief rents, and all other incidents whatever of copyhold or customary tenure, including payments, if any, which the lord may demand for permission to do acts which otherwise would involve forfeiture of the copyhold tenement, and all other circumstances relating to or affecting the land to he enfranchised, including, in manors where the fines are not fixed, ail facilities for the improvement of such land."—(The Lord Hobhouse.)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)

remarked that the object of this clause had been already fully discussed by their Lordships, and that an Amendment embodying it had been rejected by the House. He trusted that the House would adhere to its decision on the point.

THE EARL OF SELBORNE

said, that he desired to support the Amendment.

LORD BEAMWELL

said, that when the question was last before their Lordships he was afraid if the word forfeiture was not put in the lord would not be compensated at all, where his noble and learned Friend was afraid that if it was put in the lord would be compensated twice. His noble and learned Friend now proposed a clause which would compensate the lord once, and with that he was satisfied, and he would withdraw his opposition, which he had thought it right to make.

THE EARL OF MILLTOWN

said, he hoped their Lordships would adhere to the decision they had arrived at after full discussion.

LORD HERSCHELL

said, that the noble and learned Lord (Lord Bramwell) had accepted the Amendment, and his opinion having great weight, it might have led the Select Committee to the adoption of it also. His noble and learned Friend (Lord Hobhouse) had tried to meet the views of those who held that the lord should be compensated for what he would lose while he should not be compensated for what he would not lose. He had himself put down an Amendment to the same effect.

LORD BRAMWELL

said, he had not in the least changed his opinion. The noble and learned Earl (the Earl of Selborne), the noble and learned Lord (Lord Hobhouse), and the late Lord Chancellor (Lord Herschell) thought there was danger that the lord might be compensated twice over, and all he said was that if they were satisfied that this Amendment would relieve them of that difficulty, then he had no objection to it.

THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)

said, that the right of forfeiture stood on all fours with the right of escheat. It was a right which conveyed no present income or advantage. It took effect very rarely, but when that happened it brought in so much value that the mere chance of it had a present small value. That present small value had been allowed to the lord for 35 years under an Act deliberately passed, and he had not heard a word which would lead him to recede from the vote which he gave the other night.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

observed that he could not understand the principle upon which the noble Marquess coupled escheats with forfeiture.

Clause agreed to.

Further Amendment made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.