MOTION FOR PAPERS. (Hansard, 21 July 1887)

LORD SANDHURST
said, he had ventured to put on the Paper a Notice referring to the subject of the emigration of pensioners to New Zealand for two reasons. First, he hoped to induce their Lordships to agree with him that the idea he was about to ventilate was one which would be beneficial to the pensioner and to the Colony, and also to the advantage of the Mother Country; and, secondly, he proposed to call their Lordships' attention to the circumstances of the pensioner who, although in receipt of a pension, was not, owing to regulations, in a position to avail himself of the advantages which the receipt of such a pension should suggest. His object was to improve the position of the pensioner, direct his attention to the advantages of emigration, and facilitate that emigration which should not interfere with the labour market in the Colony. If, by a process of this kind, we could induce a stream of those men to go out, we should be forming a fresh link and direct association with the Colony, which, in itself, was sufficient to recommend the general idea to their Lordships. Again, the majority of those pensioners lived near and in the towns. The labour market was, as they were all painfully aware, greatly congested even in the agricultural districts, and if they could provide a system of this kind of emigration they might, though perhaps, imperceptably at first lessen the pressure. Successful men in the Colonies attracted others, and that pensioners had been successful as Colonists there was little difficulty in showing. There had been lately great interest taken in the subject of Colonial defence. He could not, of course, say what determination Her Majesty's Government had come to at the Colonial Conference; but whatever that determination might be, a body of pensioners could not fail to be of use in assisting any scheme. If only a small body went out they would form a valuable disciplined nucleus for a defence force, for he should suggest, if his plan came to anything, the pensioners being made liable to serve in New Zealand for Colonial defence, as they were liable to be called on by the War Office up to a certain age. If, on the other hand, a large number emigrated, he 1583 thought that the Imperial and Colonial Governments would find them of the greatest use. There was this difference between Australia and New Zealand in regard to defence. He believed that between Sydney and Victoria, there was no point at which a large force could be landed with a prospect of doing great harm if one of the great cities were attacked, the railway system was such that forces could be brought from Brisbane to Adelaide. New Zealand was different, it was a difficult country to defend on account of its innumerable harbours, and the formation of the country did not admit of sufficiently rapid communication between all parts. If they had stations of pensioners—disciplined veterans—who could be available, he thought that the men would materially aid in naval defencs. No one travelling in Now Zealand could fail to be struck by the advantages which that Colony offered for emigration, whether from England, India, or elsewhere. The Colony had truly been described as a paradise for working men. A comparatively short time ago the Government of New Zealand, with the dual purpose of opening up the country and attracting populations to settle on the land instead of staying in the towns, passed a Bill leasing on very advantageous terms to the occupier holdings from one to 50 acres. Success attended the effort, and Captain Daveney, the Imperial pensions officer, a gentleman of great experience and knowledge, bearing in mind the successful attempt of Sir George Grey to establish pensioners' settlements, perceived that great opportunities were offered for pensioners. He obtained from the Minister of Lands leave to send information on the subject to India in case there might be time-expired men who might be desirous of settling in New Zealand instead of returning to England, for their Lordships would remember that a time-expired man in India was given his choice of a passage home or to a colony; and, moreover, the Minister remarked that if anything came of the plan he would direct the Surveyor General to set aside good land for pensioners' settlements. These leases were on very favourable terms, and, moreover, there were great advantages for poor men in the Colony. Elementary education was free, and food was generally cheaper than in England. There was far more chance for a man 1584 raising himself and gaining a competency there than here, and his children would, no doubt prosper more than himself, as there would be plenty of employment for them as they grew up. The idea was really a development under more favourable conditions of what was done in this way by Sir George Grey, and now there was no chance of disturbances with the Maoris which the early pioneers had to fear. He was informed that all who stayed on their land did well. He had received the following from the Imperial pensions officer:— Sir George Grey founded five settlements. The pensioners lived on their lands until death. They managed not only to live well and bring up their families respectably, but numbers of their descendants still cling to their allotments and would not part with them. About 150 of these men still remain. I go out quarterly to pay their pensions, and it is a pleasure to look at their neat cottages and gardens. Most of them have been 40 years in their present abode. Sir George Grey also testified to the success of the scheme. He had received a letter from the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Sir M. O'Rorke, who said— I am very glad you are endeavouring to promote the introduction of additional pensioners into this Colony, and I hasten to offer you my testimony in favour of the scheme. I settled in the pensioners' settlements 31 years ago, and have represented it for 27 years uninterruptedly in the New Zealand Parliament. These settlements are unlike anything I have seen in Australia; the pensioners and their families having evidently taken root in the soil, and not indulging in the rambling propensities of other classes of Colonists. I can hardly decide in looking back over the last 30 years whether the Colony or the pensioners profited most by Sir George Grey's scheme. I consider it absolutely necessary that the pensioners should be accompanied by their wives. That, he considered, was very valuable testimony. The pensioner was himself a capitalist with this advantage, that he could not spend his money in gin shops immediately on arrival at the port of debarkation. The men who go out must be pensioners and not those who had commuted the whole of their pension. Therefore, he did not wish to ask the Government for capital to carry out this idea. But there was a difficulty confronting them which might easily be got over—namely, the payment of passages out to New Zealand of a pensioner and his family. With regard to Army pensioners, there were some 85,000. The 1585 average age at which a soldier after 21 years' service went on the non-effective list was 39 to 40, and the average rate of pension of a sound, healthy man was 15d. to 16d., the average number discharged per annum being 2,000. The pensioner might have his pension paid him in any part of Her Majesty's Dominions without having to obtain leave to go; therefore he might go to any Colony. If, however, he went to any foreign country before the age of 50 his pension was stopped. After 50 he might draw his pension in any part of the world. He could not commute his pension until after 50, and he must commute the whole or none. If he did commute his pension, he only capitalized it at four years' purchase instead of at the actuarial rate allowed to officers, which would be 11 years' purchase. The principle of allowing a man to commute the whole of his pension was, in his opinion, a bad one, because after a time, having had every temptation to throw his money away, and never having been in possession of such a sum before, he was very likely to return starving. But although he was opposed to commutation, he did think that if it was allowed at all it ought to be allowed at such an estimate of years' purchase as would be obtainable from an annuity company. An officer could commute a portion of his pension so long as he did not leave less than a third of it, or less than £80, and the computation of the number of years' purchase was based upon actuarial calculation. He thought it hard that a private soldier should have to take four years' purchase at 50 years of age when the proper rate would be 11. If at 39 he were allowed to commute a small proportion, he might then have sufficient to pay his passage, or, at any rate, to pay all but a very small margin of his passage out. Then he should like to remind their Lordships that this system of four years' purchase was started under very different circumstances than the present. In 1830 it was thought desirable to emigrate 1,500. When they were sent out their pension was commuted at only four years' purchase, as the land given them then was supposed to represent the remaining value. Now the four years' system obtains, although the land representing the remaining value was not given. As he had said, he was strongly opposed to pensions 1586 being entirely commuted, as were also the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital. But, at the same time, if the principle were allowed it ought to be done at a fair rate, and, as was the case with officers, a portion might with advantage be commuted if the family were desirous to emigrate, so as to give a pensioner enough to pay his passage and leaving him the remainder of the pension to be received on landing. An advance of nine months was already given; but that was of use only to single men, for the sum realized would not be sufficient to pay for a family, and as the voyage only takes six or seven weeks, the emigrant would find himself without means on arrival. Possibly if the noble Lord did not approve this plan, perhaps he would consider the desirability of a loan, with repayment spread over a term of years, which would be deducted from the pension. He hoped the question would be carefully considered, both by the War Office and the Colonial Office. He had treated the pension as a reward for past services, and not entirely as a retainer for the future. But he had been told that his proposal would denude the country of some of its Reserve Forces. But the pensioners were only a substratum of reserve, were never called out, and were paid by Post Office order where they liked. The enrolled pensioners, who, no doubt, were a valuable force, served under an agreement at £1 per quarter. Pensioners did not belong to it merely from the fact of their being pensioners; it was an enlistment on their part, though he did not underrate pensioners, and he thought the pensioner would be more useful as a defender in New Zealand than he would be England. The idea had been approved by many in New Zealand, and the Auckland Chamber of Commerce passed a Resolution in its favour. Some time ago the Prime Minister received a deputation, headed by Lord Meath, and the difficulty he pointed out was that for such an undertaking as that alluded to in the speeches of the members of the deputation a gigantic loan would be required, therefore a complete scheme must be submitted to Government before such a proposal could be submitted to Parliament. But he asked for no large loan, the only difficulty was that of passage money, and he had indicated a 1587 method of overcoming that difficulty. He had had the advantage of conversation with many well-informed gentlemen who had watched the rapid growth of the Colonies, and in many oases assisted in the building of them up, and they greatly encouraged him in the idea that emigrant colonization would be attended with good results. He hoped, therefore, that his recommendation as to pensioners would meet with favourable consideration from the Under Secretary for War, who had shown an interest in the Army which would be praiseworthy in a soldier but was remarkable in a civilian. If he and the noble Earl the Under Secretary for the Colonies would allow him to assist them they would set in motion a plan of which the results might at first be small, but might lay a groundwork for a far larger scheme with far more remarkable results in the future. He begged to move for Papers on the subject.

§ LORD NAPIER OF MAGDALA
said, he thought the House was indebted to the noble and gallant Lord for having brought the subject forward. It was matter of great regret that men who had served their country well should be reduced to a condition of want, and if means could be devised of assisting them and their families to a Colony in which they would have better prospects than lay before them at home, a great blessing would have been conferred on them and the country.

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR, WAR (Lord HARRIS)
said, he was extremely grateful to the noble and gallant Lord for bringing before the House a question which was not only a question of considerable interest to every noble Lord who had at heart the welfare of these men who had fought for their Queen and country, but a large and important question. The noble and gallant Lord suggested that pensioners should be assisted by the State in the way of an advance of money or more favourable terms of commutation in order to enable them to emigrate to the Colonies. Up to 50 years of age a pensioner was liable to serve in this country, or if he is in a Colony might 1588 be called up by the Governor of that Colony, or by the lawful authority in this country. But the pension was not altogether a pension, it was also in the nature of a retaining fee for future services. After 50 the pensioner was absolutely free, and his pension must be paid without any liability as to service on his part. With respect to the propriety of making advances to pensioners the Board of Commissioner at Chelsea had more than once endeavoured to induce the Treasury to allow advances in a lump sum for two years to enable the pensioner to emigrate, with the understanding that if he was not able to find employment in the Colony and returned his pension would go on as before. But the Treasury had not acceded to the suggestion, and the utmost advance they would make was from six to nine months' pension. The question of commutation was an intricate though interesting question. It had been recognized so far back as Queen Anne's reign, but it was not carried into effect until 1830, when British soldiers were allowed to commute their pension for four years in order to emigrate to Canada where tracts of land were granted them. A large number of men availed themselves of the privilege; but, being unable to get on in their new home were compelled to return to this country. Considerable complaints were made of the War Office authorities for having induced the men to accept these terms. In 1831 the Secretary of State wrote to the Commissioners of Chelsea Hospital, and pointed out to them what those terms were. The Commissioners expostulated that the terms were not good enough, and that a man's pension was worth more than four years' purchase; but the Secretary of State replied that he was bound by the Act of 1830. The difference between the terms which officers were allowed to obtain and what the pensioners could obtain had only existed within the last 20 years. 1869 was the first time that statutory authority was given to an officer to commute his half-pay on an actuarial value, whereas a pensioner remained under the old Act of 1830, and could only obtain four years' purchase for his pension. He was exceedingly obliged to his noble and gallant Friend for having brought forward this subject. He thought it was one which 1589 ought to be carefully considered by the country. This was, however, hardly a matter with which their Lordships could deal, for if a change were made in the amount which a pensioner could obtain as commutation the subject would have to be dealt with in a Money Bill in the other House of Parliament. But it was a matter which he thought was worthy the consideration of Parliament. He was exceedingly obliged to the noble and gallant Lord for having drawn attention to it, and he could assure him that it had not escaped the notice of the Secretary of State for War. His right hon. Friend (Mr. Stanhope) was quite prepared to take it into consideration; but it was impossible for their Lordships to go any further at this moment under the circumstances he had stated. It was a very large question, and it was hardly one with regard to which he could pledge himself at this moment. He had not found in the War Office any Papers which bore on this subject. The most interesting details were to be found in the reports of of the Parliamentary debates about 1831 and 1832; but if the noble Lord would call at the War Office he should be afforded an opportunity of seeing the Papers there that related to the subject j of his Motion.

THE EARL OF ROSEBERY
said, he wished that the Colonial Conference, of the existence of which they had heard so much and seen so little, had been now sitting, because this was a question which might well come before them. He confessed he thought the Treasury was taking what they sometimes thought it did—a somewhat pettifogging view with reference to this matter. This question of State aided emigration was very important, especially in connection with the proposal now brought forward. Here it was not merely a question of relieving over-population, but of reviving the old Roman form of colonization in this country by providing for the defence of our Colonies and settling great numbers of deserving men who could not find employment. This question of State-aided emigration would, in its full scope, soon have to be faced by the Government, and he regretted that the Government did not see their way to face it even in this small connection on the present occasion. There were very few 1590 questions on which the country felt so great an interest at this moment as the question of emigration. In the present case the colony was willing to receive the emigrants if the Imperial Government would facilitate the sending of them out. In conclusion, he hoped that the Colonial Office and the War Office would endeavour to force a more statesman-like view of this question on the Treasury.

THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The EARL of ONSLOW)
said, this question of emigration was not among the subjects to be brought before the Colonial Conference, and therefore the Conference was not invited to pronounce an opinion upon it. There were a number of noble Lords and of hon. Members who had taken up the question of emigration with great zeal and energy, and who at the time the Conference was sitting had lengthened interviews with distinguished delegates who attended its meetings and who expressed to them their views on the subject. In regard to the particular question brought forward by the noble Lord, he could only say that the colony of New Zealand and the Colonial Office were always glad that there should be such an addition to our colonists as was likely to be of service to the colony. One of the great difficulties which they had to contend with in any scheme of emigration was as to the class of men who proposed to go out. These men who had served their Queen and country with distinction were men whom any colony ought to be proud to receive. The noble and gallant Lord had asked that some papers on the subject might be laid upon the Table of the House. His noble Friend had stated that there were none in the War Office, and he might add that there were none in the Colonial Department. He believed the only Papers consisted of a collection of letters printed and circulated by the noble and gallant Lord who had brought forward this Motion. These showed that the noble and gallant Lord had been in communication with representatives of the Colony of New Zealand, and he might, perhaps, express a hope that the noble and gallant Lord would exercise his influence with the representatives of the Colonies in order to induce them to do something to get over what 1591 appeared to be the main difficuty— namely, the payment of the passages of the emigrants.

LORD HARRIS
said, it was no doubt a question whether it was wise that the country should lose these men who, in the event of an invasion, might be exceedingly useful; but as a matter of fact the State had actually assisted them to emigrate.

LORD SANDHURST
, in thanking the Under Secretary of State for War for his sympathetic reply, said, he fully admitted that they could not go further at this moment. He regretted that the noble Lord (Lord Harris) and himself approached the question of pensions from two different standpoints, the noble Lord saying it was a retainer for the future, and he (Lord Sandhurst) regarding it as a reward for past services. The noble Lord also seemed to lay much stress upon the value of pensioners' services at home; and regarding the payment of passages, suggested by the noble Earl (the Earl of Onslow), he would venture to remind him that New Zealand had already paid upwards of £2,000,000 in assisting emigration.